Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[Ninja_Moose]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Mine should be here any minute. That new ECU looks huge. Looks like 5"x7" not counting the dog ears. Mounting may be more of a problem that I thought. The only problem I see in the photo is the clear fuel line. It doesn't look like its the alcohol resistant kind. Does it say anything on it about being alcohol resistant? Given that fuel down here is 10% ethanol, it would be a good thing if it was.

Can't find any markings on the fuel lines and the ECU isn't too big.

[n4mwd]

Just got mine. The CD ROM fooled me. The standard CD size is something like 5 1/4" which threw off my measurements. I get 4 1/8" x 3 1/4". That means it will fit exactly where the old CDI is with no problems.

I'm not super thrilled with the O2 bungs which turn out to be just big nuts.

I also got my 650 cables. They will not work without modification to the throttle body. I need time to study them to figure out exactly what.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Just got mine.

I'm not super thrilled with the O2 bungs which turn out to be just big nuts.

I also got my 650 cables. They will not work without modification to the throttle body. I need time to study them to figure out exactly what.

I just got my kit as well and for the most part it looks good minus a couple things that is concerning me.

The throttle body looks pretty "meh" to be honest as far as quality is concerned. It has the "look" of being cheaply made especially since I noticed that the left and right half is crooked. Photo below. @ecotrons Is this how it is supposed to be? Crooked? It's pretty obvious that they're not perfectly linear. For the moment, I'm okay with the pulley.

Also, I expected the switch to be easily mountable onto the handlebars, not a simple looking light switch. Not a huge issue but I'll have to decide if I want to put the switch in the trunk or purchase another one.

Lastly, the packaging was amazing! Very well compacted. Great for most components but the blue fuel line was bent a little too tightly that there are crimps. I'm hoping they'll disappear over time and wont cause any kind of weak spot in the tubing.

@n4mwd Yea from just photos of the 650R cables, there's no way to secure them to the TB since there arent any nuts on the end of the cables. I wonder if there are other cables we can use. Let me know if you come up with something.

[Scattcatt]

@setasai it actually looks like you could mod the choke cable to pull the switch on that richener now that I've seen it and let my mind start running Something like this that I threw together in paint lol

[greg737]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I'm not super thrilled with the O2 bungs which turn out to be just big nuts.

.

Are the bungs long enough to insure that only the tip of nose of the O2 sensor protrudes into the pipe?

On a small tube like the EX-250 exhaust header you should use an extended length bung. If you use too short of a bung then more than just the tip of the nose of the O2 sensor will protrude into the header tube and that will create a restriction in the header. A restricted exhaust will result in less performance.

Here's the extended length bung I used in my project. With the Bosch wideband O2 sensor this bung allows only the very tip of the sensor to protrude into the flow of exhaust gases.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...764-p-188.html

[EMSRacer07]

so far i got it all installed but the stock ex250 throttle cables are too short by alot do u think u can switch the decel and accel cables?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by setasai

Is this how it is supposed to be? Crooked? It's pretty obvious that they're not perfectly linear.

No, it should not. It is hand-assembled with some CNC-ed parts. There could be some minor alignment issues, but most of them have been ok. Yours is obviously out of range. I'll get a replacement TB for you, but after 10 days.
If you can not wait, try to use it until you get the new one. But I need you to ship the bad one back to me for warranty purpose.

The quality of TB is not at where we want to be, but cost limited.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

Are the bungs long enough to insure that only the tip of nose of the O2 sensor protrudes into the pipe?

On a small tube like the EX-250 exhaust header you should use an extended length bung. If you use too short of a bung then more than just the tip of the nose of the O2 sensor will protrude into the header tube and that will create a restriction in the header. A restricted exhaust will result in less performance.

Here's the extended length bung I used in my project. With the Bosch wideband O2 sensor this bung allows only the very tip of the sensor to protrude into the flow of exhaust gases.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...764-p-188.html

Using the big nuts as bungs, the O2 sensor would protrude into the header pipe approximately 1/2". That seems like a lot to me based on what I've been reading here. The sensor has a gasket (like a spark plug) so using washers to build it out isn't going to work. I can't find any writing on the sensor so I can't tell who makes it or the part number. The connector has writing, but its just the connector MFG (AMPHENOL).

One thing I did notice by accident is that the injectors come apart.
Actually, they are two pieces snapped together (injector and the fuel inlet) so taking them apart doesn't hurt anything. Both inlet and outlet are sealed with O-rings. So I'm thinking dangerously here in that it would be really nice to construct a fuel rail out of copper pipe. Coincidentally, the inlet O-ring seals perfectly to a 3/8" ID copper coupler.

Do you know if there are any issues using copper? Since fuel now contains alcohol, it will conduct electricity. So I'm thinking if there are any problems it will be electrolysis related.

[EMSRacer07]

has anyone else had issues with the throttle cables or think they can help me out?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

has anyone else had issues with the throttle cables or think they can help me out?

how far off are they?

[EMSRacer07]

my cable only goes to the tab thats for the decel cable. and even if i get that far the will only open a bit bc the throttle plate hit the threaded part of the throttle cables

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

... I noticed that the left and right half is crooked.
... I expected the switch to be easily mountable onto the handlebars, not a simple looking light switch.
...
@n4mwd Yea from just photos of the 650R cables, there's no way to secure them to the TB since there arent any nuts on the end of the cables. I wonder if there are other cables we can use. Let me know if you come up with something.

My TB is crooked too. I just figured they had to do it that way to keep the throttle tubes the right distance apart and still get the linkage to mate properly.

Honestly, I think that all the work that has to be done to these things to make two wrong parts fit together they could easily just make up a new die cast mold to make a dual TB with everything already in place. If a die cast mold is too expensive, then using stereo lithography parts as lost wax cores would work too. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not happy with the pulley. However, it looks like it will be possible to grind off the outer lip of the pulley (which is just spot welded) and replace it with an entire new pulley that is made correctly for the Ninja. It should be possible to bolt the new pulley to the old one. There is enough metal in the old pulley to support tiny threads for the bolts. Some lock tight and lock nuts should be good enough to hold it.

Actually, the "pulley" I am thinking about is actually something more like a "Y" with bent over cable hooks on the ends. Look at the OEM carb pulley to see what I mean.

The 2009 650 cables fit nicely in the Forbitel mounts, but they stick in too far and prevent the pulley from turning all the way. You could probably get them to work by either grinding the extra off or using a spacer of some sort.

Regarding the eco/sport switch, I like the idea of hooking it to the clutch cable.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

so far i got it all installed but the stock ex250 throttle cables are too short by alot do u think u can switch the decel and accel cables?

Are you bottom feeding or top feeding the TB? The cables are supposed to be long enough if bottom feeding.

[EMSRacer07]

im bottom feeding and they arent long enough for some reason. its weird

[n4mwd]

The bung nut's outside measurement is 25.6 mm (1"). It is 14 mm thick. The inside diameter of the bung nuts is 16mm with a thread pitch of 1.50 mm. I'm thinking its a 16mm bolt, but the outside diameter of the plug threads was 17 mm.

The sensor hex nut is 22 mm (7/8"). There are 6 mm of usable threads available on the sensor accounting for the gasket. From the gasket to the tip of the sensor is 26 mm.

With the bung nut in place, the sensor tip extends 12 mm into the header. This does not take into account the grinding that will need to be done on the flat nut to make it fit the round header pipe.

The 4 wire sensor looks a lot like this one (Bosch LSU4.2):



BTW, Correction on the copper pipe fuel rail dimensions. The inside diameter of the copper fittings is 3/8" but the pipe is actually called 1/4" pipe. So the injector fits 1/4" fittings even though they are really 3/8" ID. So basically, I plan to get a pair of 1/4" copper Tees, some pipe and solder them together to make the rail. I will also need some brackets to keep them from popping off under pressure, but the fit looks perfect. The advantage to using this type of rail is that the injectors can mount at any angle which makes the electrical connectors less stressed.

[EMSRacer07]

Does anyone know if pregen throttle cables are shorter than new gen cables? i am sure that the ones im using cannot be used for these tbs.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Does anyone know if pregen throttle cables are shorter than new gen cables? i am sure that the ones im using cannot be used for these tbs.

If I remember right, your bike is even older (before 94?). Maybe we call it pre-94-gen? I don't really know how long your cables are. There are 2 other guys are pregen: @n4mwd, @flynjay. It seems @n4mwd does not have your problem.
it seems we have to separate the kits for 3 classes: new-gen, pre-gen, pre-94.
It looks like for "pre-94" models, customer cables are must.

One thing I can think: the stock decel cable is longer than accel cable. For initial test purpose, you may use just one cable: decel cable as the accel cable. As long as the throttle plate does not stick and can return to idle position, you are fine with one cable.

Actually we did use the decel cable as accel cable for injector-on-the-top installations, which is barely long enough. And the one cable solution has been fine for that bike (we put enough lubrations on the cable and throttle linkage to avoid sticky plate).

But in the long term, you'd have to get customer cables. Sorry, this is out of my expection (pre-94s).

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Do you know if there are any issues using copper? Since fuel now contains alcohol, it will conduct electricity. So I'm thinking if there are any problems it will be electrolysis related.

I don't think copper is a problem here. Injectors are fine with copper fuel rail.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Does anyone know if pregen throttle cables are shorter than new gen cables? i am sure that the ones im using cannot be used for these tbs.

Forbitel had a 2010 newgen. The cables show different part numbers for a 2010 newgen and a 1990 pregen.

I suspect they are shorter on the pregen. I'm trying to find out for sure, but it will take a while.

[Ninja_Moose]

Matt (ecotrons), was the file for the injectors on top included on the CD or will we get an email?

[n4mwd]

Does the ECU draw power from the battery when the key switch is off?

[n4mwd]

I noticed an issue with the fuel tap. The fuel tap looks like its designed for Suzuki style gaskets which have dividers that separate the screws from the fuel section. The kawasaki O-ring gasket doesn't have dividers. Shown below is a kawasaki o-ring gasket OEM# 51039-003. Also, it does not fit inside the groove properly. If there are no dividers, then it would seem that some other kind of sealing method must be used to prevent the gas from leaking out the screws.

Where do we get the proper gasket for the ecotrons fuel tap?

[Ninja_Moose]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I noticed an issue with the fuel tap. The fuel tap looks like its designed for Suzuki style gaskets which have dividers that separate the screws from the fuel section. The kawasaki O-ring gasket doesn't have dividers. Shown below is a kawasaki o-ring gasket OEM# 51039-003. Also, it does not fit inside the groove properly. If there are no dividers, then it would seem that some other kind of sealing method must be used to prevent the gas from leaking out the screws.

Where do we get the proper gasket for the ecotrons fuel tap?

The grooves work for the new gen 250

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Moose

The grooves work for the new gen 250

Looks like pregen owners will need to order the newgen gasket.

---

Matt,

I have been reviewing the Ecotrons documentation and there seems to be a discrepancy regarding the orientation of the pressure regulator.

On page 5, you show the flow going in through the top and out the side.
On pages 13, 16 and 35, you show the flow going in the side and out the top.

Does it make a difference or is page 5 an error?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Does the ECU draw power from the battery when the key switch is off?

Good question:
ECU is partially ON for 5-10s and takes minimum power (50mA) after the key switched off:
For this 5-10s, ECU stays in "house-keeping" mode: all big power consumers injectors, fuel pump, ignition coils, O2, etc are off. Only the main CPU is on, and doing the house keeping work, which is mainly to save all the learnt data to memory.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt,

I have been reviewing the Ecotrons documentation and there seems to be a discrepancy regarding the orientation of the pressure regulator.

On page 5, you show the flow going in through the top and out the side.
On pages 13, 16 and 35, you show the flow going in the side and out the top.

Does it make a difference or is page 5 an error?

Page 5 is an error. Thanks for the catch.
Actually please use the new manual that is sending now via Email to you all (1.8M, do not want to jam ninjette.org). It is recently updated, which will be published on our website soon anyway.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Where do we get the proper gasket for the ecotrons fuel tap?

This gasket is an exchangeble part for some other bikes. Coincidently we have another group of people converting Suzuki DR650 dual sports, and the gasket is same as Ninja 250's.
Attached picture of DR650's petcock with Gasket.
Matt

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Good question:
ECU is partially ON for 5-10s and takes minimum power (50mA) after the key switched off:
For this 5-10s, ECU stays in "house-keeping" mode: all big power consumers injectors, fuel pump, ignition coils, O2, etc are off. Only the main CPU is on, and doing the house keeping work, which is mainly to save all the learnt data to memory.

So how much power does it use after the 5-10s?

The batteries aren't very big on these bikes so even a small draw will kill the battery after a while.

Regarding the ECU and weak batteries, when the bike cranks, the battery voltage drops due to the load from the starter motor. How low can the battery voltage get before the ECU fails.

[n4mwd]

I attached my 2009 650 throttle cables to my pregen handlebar control and they fit perfectly. I don't see why they couldn't be used in place of 2006 cables. I'm a little concerned about the overall length, but they look like they will do the job. There won't be a lot of extra length to spare. The decel cable has a metal tube on the bar end that isn't on the original pregen cables. This makes the fit a little odd, but it will still work.

I did some measuring for making the cable bracket for the throttle body. These measurements are measured on the throttle body end from the cable stop ferrule to the inside of the cable end nut. The adjusters were set about midway.

Acceleration cable (the one with the black plastic thing on the end):
110 mm idle / 50 mm WOT

Deceleration cable:
60 mm idle / 120 mm WOT

Both cables have a 60 mm pull.

The type of pulley we use will determine the shape of the cable bracket.

EDIT: Those pulls are maximum cable pull and require the control grip to be twisted 190 degrees. The OEM carbs only pull about 25mm to go from idle to WOT.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So how much power does it use after the 5-10s?.

Depending on one feature called "engine off timer / soak timer" is enabled or not in calibrations, I'll get back to you on this...

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The batteries aren't very big on these bikes so even a small draw will kill the battery after a while. .

Overnight, no problem. Less than a week, I don't think it's a problem either. If you leave it for weeks, better disconnect the battery.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Regarding the ECU and weak batteries, when the bike cranks, the battery voltage drops due to the load from the starter motor. How low can the battery voltage get before the ECU fails.

ECU can work as long as the battery voltage is more than 9V. but the problem is the fuel pump and injectors, they do not provide enough fuel or does not even open once the battery voltage drops below 10V. And ignition coils may not get enough power so misfires happen. A safe bet is to maintain you battery above 11V for start. this definitely depends on the quality of the battery and also the age of the battery, even with same voltage like 12V, you can easily kill an aged battery by a few start attemps.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So how much power does it use after the 5-10s?

The batteries aren't very big on these bikes so even a small draw will kill the battery after a while.

Regarding the ECU and weak batteries, when the bike cranks, the battery voltage drops due to the load from the starter motor. How low can the battery voltage get before the ECU fails.

Would you happen to know if this is a problem with the European FI 250R's? If it's not, how big of a difference are the power draws between Ecotrons' kit and the OEM FI kit?

[n4mwd]

If the "after 10s" off power drain is less than 5ma, then it should be fine.

I think the UK version cuts all power to the ecu by the keyswitch. The last thing they want is a bunch of bikes with dead batteries on their showroom floor.

PS- Matt, would it hurt to kill all power to the ECU when the switch is turned off?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If the "after 10s" off power drain is less than 5ma, then it should be fine.

I think the UK version cuts all power to the ecu by the keyswitch. The last thing they want is a bunch of bikes with dead batteries on their showroom floor.

PS- Matt, would it hurt to kill all power to the ECU when the switch is turned off?

Confirmed: no "soak timer" enabled. After 10s; everything is off, 0 amp current draw.

10s is for ECU to do house keeping: save all self-learning data. If you disconnect ECU during this time, or actually if you disconnect ECU when key is ON; you will lose all the self-learning data.
But it is not recommended to disconnect ECU when it's still ON, it could cause some transient loads and damage the ECU ( very very small possibility, but not impossible).

In short, key off and leave it. If you want to disconnect the battery, give it 10s after key off.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Would you happen to know if this is a problem with the European FI 250R's? If it's not, how big of a difference are the power draws between Ecotrons' kit and the OEM FI kit?

We don't have an EU FI 250r. I don't know OEM FI kit power draw.
Ecotrons' kit draw max 3.5A current, which is about 45W, if your battery is 13V (normal during running). The biggest one is fuel pump, drawing 2.3A, then 2x O2 sensor, about 0.9A average. the rest is trivia. These are the add-on power draw. Ignition coils are not counted because that's stock coils. Injectors draw some power transiently.

In short, 45W power draw is not a big deal for Ninja 250r. No battery low problem ever so far.

Our EFI kit can work with 125cc, 150cc scooters and monkey bikes, with no power shortage. The only problems reported so far are with 50cc scooters.

Sports bikes like Ninja 250r have more than enough charging power to run this kit.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

What about deathproof? Could you ride it while your main bike is down? I have actually been looking at another Ninja and I went to the dealer and he let me sit on a ZX-10. The ZX series are supersports and have an uncomfortable riding posture. I think if I go to a bigger bike its going to be a 650 which has similar riding posture to the newgen. I emailed a guy selling a pregen cheap but he hasn't replied so either its sold or he's an idiot. Maybe both.

The tracking info says that my EFI kit has left Romulus and is now back on Earth and should be delivered today.

Try the ninja 1000, it feels like a bigger more comfortable ninja 250, upright riding posture just like the 250. And yea theres deathproof but I feel like 2 bikes isnt enough

[choneofakind]

It's not quite as upright as the 250. Legs are more bent, spread wider, and further back, and the bars are wider and a little further forward. I was very impressed with that bike though. Silky smooth, with lots of power without being peaky and insane like the 6R or 10R. Still a very comfortable bike though.

[EMSRacer07]

ok guys i got about everything right on the bike. just need to put in the battery and put the positive and negative cables on. Looks like everything went goood and the decel cable worked really well so far. ill let everyone know on that but tomorrow should be running if i get no check engine light or anything else.

O yeah on the check engine light the wire is really short. i wanted to put it on the dash or somewhere close but i placed it near the battery. might lengthen that later.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

It's not quite as upright as the 250. Legs are more bent, spread wider, and further back, and the bars are wider and a little further forward. I was very impressed with that bike though. Silky smooth, with lots of power without being peaky and insane like the 6R or 10R. Still a very comfortable bike though.

My thoughts of getting on the Ninja 1000 "This is like a really comfy ninja 250" Yea its different, but its not a "supersport" style

[choneofakind]

oh yeah. Loads better than a supersport. If I were going any long distance, that's the bike I would choose. Power, comfort, agility, but not old-guy-sports-tourer like the Concourse

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

We don't have an EU FI 250r. I don't know OEM FI kit power draw.
Ecotrons' kit draw max 3.5A current, which is about 45W, if your battery is 13V (normal during running). The biggest one is fuel pump, drawing 2.3A, then 2x O2 sensor, about 0.9A average. the rest is trivia. These are the add-on power draw. Ignition coils are not counted because that's stock coils. Injectors draw some power transiently.

In short, 45W power draw is not a big deal for Ninja 250r. No battery low problem ever so far.

Our EFI kit can work with 125cc, 150cc scooters and monkey bikes, with no power shortage. The only problems reported so far are with 50cc scooters.

Sports bikes like Ninja 250r have more than enough charging power to run this kit.

The Ninja 250 pregen alternator puts out about 10 amps at idle (120W) and 15 amps at speed (180W). The headlight draws 60W. Then 45W for the EFI. The brake and tail light are 30W together. That means that at idle, the charging system is running a 15W deficit. This is a typical situation at a traffic light and more than a few minutes like that and the battery will drain to the point it wont be able to run or crank.

But since most of the time the bike will be running at speed (with 45W to spare), it should even out as long as there aren't too many other things plugged in such as heated gloves (30W), etc..

Regarding the check engine light, exactly what does it signify? That is, what's broken when its lit? Does it flash with a code or something?