May 20th, 2013, 07:58 AM | #41 |
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I have one of those infrared thermometers. We could meet up somewhere and compare bike temperatures.
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May 20th, 2013, 08:07 AM | #42 | |
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Here are a few others; Overheating: Firing incorrect: Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted Spark plug incorrect IC Igniter trouble Fuel/air mixture incorrect: Main jet clogged or wrong size Fuel level in carburetor float bowl too low Carburetor holder loose Air cleaner poorly sealed, or missing Air cleaner duct poorly sealed Air cleaner clogged Compression high: Carbon built up in combustion chamber Engine load faulty: Clutch slipping Engine oil level too high Engine oil viscosity too high Drive train trouble Brake dragging Lubrication inadequate: Engine oil level too low Engine oil poor quality or incorrect |
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May 20th, 2013, 08:19 AM | #43 |
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How did the coolant look when you drained it?
Bright green and clear is good. Anything other means your coolant is old and or contaminated. What ratio of coolant to water did you use? 50/50? Make sure you are using distilled water and not tap water. Tap water contains minerals as well as carbonate and chlorine which will eat up the aluminum and metal causing scaling and corrosion. How did you go about flushing the the cooling system? Did you drain all the coolant out of the block radiator? What I do is pull the hose on the left side of the engine at the radiator and drain the radiator there, undo the drain bolt on the block under the header, and drain bolt at the water pump. Once drained, I'll fill the system back up with distilled water and run the bike till it warms up. and drain it. Reason I used distilled water is so you can see if there are any debris in your cooling system plus you're flushing the system and you'd don't want to waste coolant unless you're big balling and don't care about wasting money on coolant. Another thing but I'm probably sure you've checked is make sure your radiator fins are not bent or clogged with bug guts and mud or corroded away. To be honest, sounds like you've blown a headgasket.
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May 20th, 2013, 08:42 AM | #44 |
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The headgasket is what I'm worried about! Bike sounds a little farty under throttle now.
I just wanna check the spark plugs, the compression, and run a leak down test to see my status with those. My coolant looked very like new. There was a bit of particles in the overflow but for the most part it looked just fine. I hooked a hose up to the filler neck and flushed it out of the two drain holes until it was clear as could be. I really doubt the jetting is off I haven't had any issues since they've been installed and the fact the thermo switch is busted tells me something may have broken when my bike got hot before being noticed by me. I might look into that thermo it doesn't seem to cost too much (harbor freight) but I do have a contact type one on my ammeter. I'm gonna focus on engine type issues right now because I really don't think the cooling system is at fault right now. If all checks out I will pull the carbs to see if the lack of power is from a clog in the mains. |
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May 20th, 2013, 10:16 AM | #45 |
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When you flushed, did you flush backwards up the radiator with the hose to make sure there was good flow through it?
Have you noticed any white smoke in the exhaust? Have you noticed and change in the oil that resembles puke? When you turn the key on, does the oil light come on until you start the bike?
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May 20th, 2013, 11:40 AM | #46 |
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I didn't backfill like you suggested no.
The oil looks normal. No smoke in the exhaust I was worried about that and did check. I believe the oil light goes on then off when I turn the key to ON. |
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May 20th, 2013, 02:49 PM | #47 |
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If you didn't backwash the radiator, then you didn't flush it. By flushing it in the opposite direction, gunk and junk are blown out that are clogging it from the normal direction.
When you refilled everything, did you run it until warm with the cap off? This is what gets the air out. Measuring the exact temperature of the head is what needs to be done next. You said it didn't actually get past the redline on the temp gauge, but it presented symptoms of coolant failure (power loss). So either the temp sensor in the thermostat housing is wrong or the engine really isn't overheating. The thermometer will tell you which is which.
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May 20th, 2013, 04:24 PM | #48 |
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Yeah I burped the cooling system when I refilled.
As of now we have this: Compression Test: Cyl 1 : 80psi Cyl 2: 180psi Leak down test Cyl 1: No leak Cyl 2: No leak Carb's main jets were fine, nothing cloggin them. Spark plugs tested out fine both left and right. Looks like I'll be taking the head off and putting a new head gasket in. I do need to take a look at the pistons and see if theyre fine as well. This still doesn't tell me why the engine was overheating in the first place. I can only guess when the thermostatic switch broke the engine overheated and possibly damaged something creating this condition. |
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May 20th, 2013, 04:56 PM | #49 |
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Yeah, 80psi is no good. Did you get a chance to measure the actual engine temp with an external thermometer before you took it apart?
When you remove the cylinder head, make sure you check everything for warpage. If you were actually overheating, then warpage is a real threat.
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May 20th, 2013, 05:16 PM | #50 | |
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May 22nd, 2013, 06:00 PM | #51 |
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Update:
Did another compression test one cylinder one: Wet test: 120 Psi Dry test: 80 Psi Is this saying a lot? I didnt run a wet test on cyl 2 but I imagine it should read similar if nothing is wrong with the piston right?? |
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May 22nd, 2013, 06:58 PM | #52 | |
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Generally a higher wet test tends to scream bad rings.
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May 23rd, 2013, 05:02 AM | #53 |
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May 23rd, 2013, 06:59 AM | #54 | |
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Quote:
Also, did you get a true temp reading with your thermometer yet?
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May 23rd, 2013, 07:11 AM | #55 | |
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-The ring's gap may not be enough to accommodate the dilatation and the ring may break. -The ring's spring action against the wall of the cylinder may result reduced.
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May 23rd, 2013, 09:39 AM | #56 |
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The only thing is that without an actual temperature reading, there is no way to really say if the engine actually overheated or not.
But if the ring did break, as opposed to just wearing out, then its probably scoring the cylinder every which way.
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May 23rd, 2013, 02:01 PM | #57 |
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I had no (noticeable) compression issues before the other day. I don't know what the source of the original overheating was.
The bike has 19k miles now. I never got a temperature reading but I'm pretty sure the high reading on the gauge put together with the coolant overflow is evidence enough. I'm not running the bike to get a temperature reading. |
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May 23rd, 2013, 03:07 PM | #58 | |
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May 24th, 2013, 11:49 AM | #59 |
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Pulled head and block out this morning. Found the intake springs for cylinder one left side (as you're sitting on the bike) laying underneath the cam. The rocker was lying in the corner and one of the valve keepers has gone missing while the other one seems to have been destroyed. As far as the rings I don't notice anything visually wrong with them. Cylinder 2's piston looked a little purple ish in the spots around the rings while cylinder one's piston looked fine. There is a little bit of scratches on the intake valve stem and the washer piece that sits on top of the springs.
I don't know if that was causing the overheating somehow? I did backwash the radiator and all was well there fyi (n4md). I've got to make a parts list and put in an order tonight while I try to figure out what my next step is. |
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May 24th, 2013, 11:51 AM | #60 |
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If I run the bike with the radiator cap open and after the thermostat opens I observe coolant flow going into the radiator, is there any need to check the water pump? I'd just rather not pull it out and risk damaging an o-ring.
I revved the bike and observed greater flow as well after the thermostat had opened.... |
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May 25th, 2013, 04:53 AM | #61 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Since you have the engine apart, go ahead and examine the cylinder block. You need to make sure that there is nothing blocking the flow. Its possible that you have flow around one cylinder, but not the other. Use a hose with a jet nozzle to blast into each side. Wipe the inside cylinders dry when done. The reason that I think inspecting the water pump is necessary is not because it isn't working, but because a piece of the impeller may have come loose and gotten wedged in the cylinder block - thus causing a restricted flow around one cylinder. You don't have to pull the whole pump, just removed the cover. You'll need a new gasket probably. So the purpose is to inspect the impeller for damage. You also need to check the cylinder section, top and bottom, and the head for warpage. Just put a straight edge of some kind across the top and look for gaps. If the head and cylinders got to a certain temperature, then they will warp and will need to be machined flat again. Since you have loose parts in there, you will probably want to remove the clutch cover. A lot of times that is where they end up. You will want to inspect the lower timing chain guide that is just under the crankshaft. When things get wedged under the timing chain, this is a part of the main block that tends to get snapped off. You need to recover these things because if they get wedged between two gears, they can cause a lot more trouble than you have now. I actually think the problems are unrelated because it sounds like cylinder #2 was the one that was overheating and cylinder #1 was the one that failed. Some pictures would be helpful.
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May 25th, 2013, 05:12 AM | #62 |
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I was just thinking about your valve keepers. Because of your unique assembly technique back in November, I'm thinking that the spring caps may have been damaged causing excessive play with the keepers, or perhaps one of the keepers was cracked somehow. So you might want to replace the spring caps as well.
Here's a guy on ebay selling the whole mess for $16 shipped.
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May 25th, 2013, 05:30 AM | #63 | |
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Did you hear any air leak during leak down test? I believe that the temperature of that cylinder should have been lower than normal, as well as the compression and generated power. Did you noted decreased power at any point since your last repair?
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May 25th, 2013, 06:22 AM | #64 |
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The piston probably was smacking it. So the valve may also be bent. With a bent valve and no rocker, it might have just stayed in the up position. I don't see how he was getting any kind of power from that cylinder at all.
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May 25th, 2013, 07:17 AM | #65 | |
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Unless it just happened as a consequence of the over-heating. Your idea of debris from the impeller is very good. I have been researching for safe chemical cleaners for his aluminum radiator, but I have found none. I strongly believe that he may have some hard deposits inside the narrow tubes of the radiator which impair the design heat transfer rate (just a hypothesis, of course). It is sad to see such a chain of problems
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May 25th, 2013, 10:01 AM | #66 | |
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I did indeed have the shop install the keepers I don't know why they would want to come out as they did. The leak down test showed no leaks of course. This problem happened very recently because I lost power after I warmed the bike up to test the cooling system again. That's when I thought the head gasket was gone but it was probably this valve causing the lack of power. I don't know whether or not to order new rings for my pistons. I'd rather not do any unnecessary repairs at this time. |
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May 25th, 2013, 10:08 AM | #67 |
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2013-05-25 13.03.53.jpg
Cylinder 1 ^^ 2013-05-25 13.03.46.jpg Cylinder 1 ^^ 2013-05-25 13.03.03.jpg Cylinder 2 ^^ 2013-05-25 13.02.55.jpg cylinder 2 ^^ |
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May 25th, 2013, 10:12 AM | #68 | |
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I plan on removing the clutch cover after I pick up my oil pan from storage but probably not before I get new parts in. I don't want my engine sitting without oil in it. Ill check the head and block for warpage as well as the impeller for damage. |
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May 25th, 2013, 05:46 PM | #69 |
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The pistons and rings really don't look all that bad to me. Take a look at the top of the piston and look for dings and cracks.
I think the keepers and valve caps were damaged by your previous installation attempt. I recommend you buy the kit on ebay for $16. You should replace all your old valve caps and keepers. Plus you are going to need a new spring set for the one valve. You need to determine why the valve is stuck in the up position. More than likely, something is bent. Also, before you put anything back together, you need to determine for sure what was causing the overheating. Otherwise its just a repeat performance.
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May 25th, 2013, 06:16 PM | #70 | |
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May 26th, 2013, 04:44 AM | #71 |
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Both the cylinder and the valve head have coolant going through them. The hose with a jet nozzle may be the best way to see if you can flush something out.
I have seen in car engines, but I'm not sure about the Ninja, that they use metal springs in the radiator hoses which can rust, break apart and jam the impeller and clog the water jacket of the engine. Again, I'm not sure about the Ninja, but you could find all sorts of surprises in there. The valve keepers need to fit inside an exact diameter cup inside the valve spring caps. I think the heat plus the previous installation attempt expanded them just enough to cause the keepers to fail. That's why I suggested buying the $16 valve set from the guy on ebay. They are quite expensive buying new.
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May 26th, 2013, 05:32 AM | #72 |
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I've bought the set off ebay already, good savings there.
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May 26th, 2013, 03:31 PM | #73 |
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The head of the intake valve was a little crooked. I don't think this was my doing when I was removing it as I would expect the stem to be bent. Just put in an order from partzilla totalling $82 + shipping. Not bad considering I thought it would be much more. Now time to fish out the broken parts and test the coolant passages.
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May 26th, 2013, 07:31 PM | #74 |
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Might be somebody on ebay selling the valves cheap.
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June 8th, 2013, 07:08 AM | #75 |
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Got the clutch cover off and drained the oil. I have yet to find the 6mm nut that came off the rocker! What should I do?? I put a flashlight into the crankcase and I didn't see anything either..... It just disappeared! Could it have gotten into an oil passage? The mechanic at the shop said my valves could have been tight which would cause the overheating. I never thought of that but I did adjust them probably ~3k miles ago.....
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June 8th, 2013, 07:19 AM | #76 | |
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Your nut must be in between that pan and the valves' train. Maybe a magnet could help? Tight valves get burned because they don't "kiss" the seats long enough to be properly cooled. For the very same reason, they never cause engine's overheating.
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June 8th, 2013, 08:10 AM | #77 |
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There was a diagram posted of this somewhere do you know where I could find it?
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June 8th, 2013, 08:27 AM | #78 |
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Don't remember.
This schematic is for the new-gens: http://xmanualpdf.com/wp-content/upl...sers-Guide.jpg
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June 8th, 2013, 09:01 AM | #79 |
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The nut has to be in there somewhere. Its not going to get sucked into the oil intake because of the oil pickup screen. You should probably pull that off if you haven't already and check to see if it got washed in there. Once the screen is off, you can stick your finger up in there and feel around for it.
While you have the clutch cover off, check to see if the cam chain guard under the crankshaft is still there. That will tell you if the cam chain was affected. I still think the overheating is a separate issue. You just did the valves so I don't think they were out. Oh, and you'll need a new oil screen gasket. They aren't that expensive, but since they are paper, you can make your own out of gasket paper.
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June 8th, 2013, 01:54 PM | #80 |
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Lots of carnage in that oil screen.
I really wish lowes or home depot carried our mounting bolt nuts!!! well looks like i sheered a cam cap bolt..... i also need a new rocker/screw as they are both stripped! The screw in my chain tensioner housing rounded making it a real PITA to install. (if I even can). Such a frustrating process!!! I wanna splurge and buy a used engine!!! |
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