December 6th, 2015, 02:18 PM | #41 |
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Ok, I thought about that, but was hoping the 06 GSXR1000 spring would be the same diameter as the 06 GSXR600 spring was. The 03 GSXR600 spring had a larger diameter lower ring also, but it would not thread on like the original GSXR600 lower ring, and then if you wanted a lock ring, there would be three rings, instead of two... I really don't want a larger diameter spring if I can help it, as the clearance in my 86 EX250 swing arm is going to be tight already. What year was the GSXR1000 donor shock that you got the spring from? And, thanks for the reply, brother!
Charlie
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December 6th, 2015, 02:21 PM | #42 | |
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December 6th, 2015, 02:40 PM | #43 |
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Ok, I have been on RaceTech's site and looking at the available shock springs, I see why there is a size difference. The 06-09 GSXR600-750 rear shock is a 40mm body, while the rest of the GSXR's (1000, early 600-750's) are all 46mm bodies. The pre-2000 GSXR shocks are 40mm, but the springs are markedly longer, so they are out... I am thinking that the best solution is to get a RaceTech new/used spring with the 8.5-8.9kg rating. That would give a spring that will be the right range for our Ninja's and rider weight 180... hehe if I gain 2-3 horsepower of the winter. (lose 10-15 lb.)
The number of the spring, if you are interested, is SRSP-5818085 or 089 fro the last three digits. I will do some searching and see if I can come up with one reasonably priced. Charlie
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December 26th, 2015, 06:01 AM | #44 |
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why all the fascination with this GSXR spring or that? Buy an Eibach at the correct ID and correct rate. They are like $60. Otherwise shouldn't there be a thread that documents all the relevant shock springs, their dimensions and rates, and suitable rider weight range so folks can reference? Or did I miss it?
I'll absolutely second/third/forth those say to send the GSXR/R6 shock off to get serviced, lengthened (?) and revalved. It's madness to use the wrong item to "save" a couple dollars. If you're going to do it, spend the 350 and do it right. Some of these 'light' bikes need 5-10mm longer shocks for best chassis and weight balance. I don't know if the 250/300 fall into this category or not. First, fix the obviously wrong stuff - fork springs and a thick enough oil to compensate probably around 35-40cSt@40. If the frontend now won't track and is skittish when hitting bumps, drill some relief holes in the damper rod. |
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December 26th, 2015, 06:32 AM | #45 | |
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December 26th, 2015, 11:59 AM | #46 | |
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In all honesty, I would suggest stiffening the rear first then finding a good front set up. You don't steer from the rear on these bikes, you ride the front end. The problem i have experienced with stiffer fork springs is that i am having a tougher time having feel in the front of the bike. |
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December 26th, 2015, 12:31 PM | #47 |
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I was just commenting on the several instances I read of "I put an '03 spring on an '06 shock or 08 spring on '03 shock or this OEM spring here or that one" and permutations of above as opposed to buying the right diameter spring and the correct rate. No doubt riders of a certain weight can utilize one of these OEM springs but lacking a chart that describes their characteristics, seems a bit of random what-if pairings being attempted.
So if you ride the frontend, why wouldn't you just ride around the shock's limitations (OE or GSXR etc.) while making sure the front is as sorted as best you can and trying not to unduly influence those settings because of the bouncy rear? Fixing the forks comment was aimed at the original poster who is heavy. I can't speak to your preferences for 'mush' vs 'stiff' but I see you own a S1000RR so I expect you have some appreciation for firm yet supple (or not) forks are supposed to feel like. |
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December 26th, 2015, 12:43 PM | #48 |
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They are talking about using those springs on that year GSXR shock.
But, I agree. If you can't measure the spring rate yourself I wouldn't use a spring from some OEM shock. Also, just putting on the spring, even if you get a rate that works for you, the shock is too short and putting on dogbones to compensate is not a very good way to gain decent suspension. The leverage ratio wrong. It is just a band-aid and it won't handle anywhere near as good as it could. But, the philosophy here is just get'er done CHEAP. |
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December 26th, 2015, 02:13 PM | #49 |
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December 26th, 2015, 07:06 PM | #50 | |
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January 2nd, 2016, 09:45 PM | #51 |
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I am definitely going to get the rear shock swapped out after my first season of track days. Probably will just fork out the $ for a Penske or Ohlins or the frankenstock from ROADandTRACK. I am hoping the GSXR with the other spring will at least be better than OEM for my first few track days. I also am going to do springs and heavier oil in the fronts
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January 3rd, 2016, 05:41 AM | #52 |
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I am going to fab up an adaptor for the lower clevis, and that should give enough height to the 06 GSXR600 shock to raise it a little more than stock. For racing, that will allow the bike to turn in quicker, and i figure that about 8-10mm higher than the stock shock will be a plus. I think Matt's suggestion of ordering an Eibach spring for it will be on the list, also. They seem affordable at around $60, and with the stock GSXR valving, it may be ok, at least it will be better than the EX250 stocker, which isn't good for much...
My plans are to make a bolt on adaptor that utilizes the stock mounting, and weld up some plate that will allow me to custom fit it to the lower rocker, alleviating any 'grinding' of the inner clevis, or the rocker. Also, it will allow me to keep the stock dog bones to give the suspension the same ratio/travel as it should have. Spring approaches fast, and before you know it, it will be racing season again!
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January 3rd, 2016, 05:53 AM | #53 | |
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January 3rd, 2016, 06:00 AM | #54 |
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Charlie for adjustability of the height maybe the attached picture could give you an idea?
Last futzed with by Somchai; January 23rd, 2016 at 11:38 PM. |
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January 3rd, 2016, 10:46 AM | #55 |
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We measure springs all the time that are supposed to be a certain rate from a certain bike and they are not even close to that. So if you can't measure it yourself what is the point. Just buy a new spring, they aren't that much $$$.
Using dogbones to correct the ride height does not work correctly. |
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January 3rd, 2016, 10:57 AM | #56 | |
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January 3rd, 2016, 07:12 PM | #57 |
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@ROADandTRACK and @Yamahawk
My advice about the adjustable dog bone was just for an easy and quick solution. Some time ago I'd already post this: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...5&postcount=62 From there: "And let me say one word about the GSX-R shock, when one reads in the German gixxer forums one can read that around 50% of all 600/750 Gixxer-rider (not the 1000 cc) change the spring of the rear shock to a softer one and this also means nearly no rider is happy with the rear spring, but some guys just take it like it is." https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...8&postcount=64 From there: "But please remember what you are doing: - with a shorter shock (which from the low sales price could be understood at the end of its life-cycle already) made for a complete different bike (and not only from progression) you are changing the progression of the Ninja's suspension in one way - just to then use different dog bones to change the progression more backwards in the opposite way and this only to talk about height and not about the internal components of the gixxer-shock." But what does the lonely caller in the desert mean against all those experienced experts? |
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January 4th, 2016, 06:25 PM | #58 |
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The shock is only one of the issues. The other is the linkage which is way off and you cannot fix that problem with the dogbones.
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January 4th, 2016, 09:41 PM | #59 | |
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I plan to use a low mileage 06 GSXR600 shock that'll be lengthened to compensate for it's initial length being less than the stock EX250 shock. It will have an Eibach spring for the correct weight of the bike, and my weight. The stock rocker, dogbones and swing-arm will be kept. If it needs to be re-valved for the difference in weight or geometry, I may eventually do that. I have to believe that it would be a superior shock to the stock, nonadjustable shock that comes on the Ninja, so it should be a good improvement. Also, @Somcai I have read your postings about that before, and agree. I am still learning, and do not have all the answers, so I ask questions and read as much as I can. I had Jamie Daugherty set up a CBR600F3 rear shock, converted to clevis and resprung and re-valved for my VTR250 Interceptor that I currently race. It does really well, and I may add cartridges to the front forks for it, also as I transplanted 37mm CBR600F1 forks when I built it. Anyway, enlighten me, on this linkage dilemma, hehe.
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January 5th, 2016, 01:48 AM | #60 |
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shocks are valved not just for spring but also wheel rate (aka linkage ratio). I'd say get a copy of Tony Foale's chassis dynamics software and go measure the various parts. But maybe R&T or Spears etc. have already done that and can share.
Say the EX shock moves 1/2" for every 1" of wheel and the GSXR moves 2/3". The valving and flow characteristics of the pistons are different. this might be useful reading http://www.ex-500.com/index.php?topic=19865.20;wap2 |
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January 5th, 2016, 01:52 AM | #61 |
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shocks are valved not just for spring but also wheel rate (aka linkage ratio). I'd say get a copy of Tony Foale's chassis dynamics software and go measure the various parts. But maybe R&T or Spears etc. have already done that and can share.
Say the EX shock moves 1/2" for every 1" of wheel and the GSXR moves 2/3". The valving and flow characteristics of the pistons are different. this might be useful reading http://www.promecha.com.au/leverage_linkages.htm |
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January 5th, 2016, 04:06 AM | #62 |
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From Matt's link, very interesting:
"Yes, the front leverage ratio. The forks are not vertical, so the fork springs have to compress about 1.1mm for every 1mm of vertical axle movement. That means the effective spring-rate at the front axle is about 20% greater than the sum of the fork spring rates." |
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January 5th, 2016, 05:43 AM | #63 | |
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January 5th, 2016, 07:52 AM | #64 |
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I don't think anybody is suggesting it's unrideable or unuseable as-is, just not optimal but more importantly, it's untested ground. Goodness knows there are a ton of SV650's running around with GSXR shocks from ebay just slapped in there without so much as a spring change.
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January 5th, 2016, 08:01 AM | #65 | |||
ninjette.org sage
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The lure of the classic OEM shock swap is the cheapness. The reality of the OEM shock swap is that you almost never get what you really want. It's more like "winning" with one of those scratch-off tickets and the prize is that you only won another scratch-off ticket to try all over again. I know very well that my own efforts at putting F3 cartridges in my forks and getting exactly what I want first time out is a little bit like trying to win the lottery and I'm pretty certain that I'll have to do some development to get something that really works well. That's why I just ordered some cartridge emulators to use as an intermediate step for racing while I develop the cartridge setup. You may want to consider to have the valving changed at the same time that you have the shock lengthened. Using a pro's knowledge has its benefits in that regard because you're more likely to have something that works very well right out of the box. Having said all that, one thing to keep in mind is that the 250 Ninja is an extremely easy bike to ride and unless we really screw things up, it is relatively easy to ride around the problems we've created for ourselves. That kind of makes it easier to take a gamble on cheap suspension "upgrades". Somchai, one thing that that article does not point out is that the fork "leverage ratio" actually changes with suspension travel under braking due to the bike pitching forward and steepening the steering head angle. Certainly one could argue that this is the most important area to consider in racing applications. The more the fork compresses, the closer it gets to a 1 to 1 movement, making the front leverage ratio slightly progressive in this situation. And that's not even considering the air gap in the forks which would have a much more progressive effect on suspension travel. It would be very interesting to look at the how the combination of change in steering head angle and the compression of air in the fork have in producing a progressive "front leverage ratio". |
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January 6th, 2016, 12:21 AM | #66 | |
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January 6th, 2016, 03:25 AM | #67 |
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There's another thing to talk about and before anybody is telling me it has nothing to do with suspension, yes this is right, but it is also an important point for riding quality and safety.
Did one of yall once measure the distance from the pivot of the swing arm to the center of the rear axle to ensure that the rear tire adjustment is straight? After I'd ride around 5000-6000 km (3500-4000 miles) I saw that the profile of the rear tire on one side (right) was more used or down than it was on the other (left). Also my feeling was that it is different to turn left than it was in right corners. So I'd search in the net for a reason and on German MC-websites I found not less riders talking about the adjustment-marks on the swing arm are not always correct. After that I went to a small shop here to get a tool made with which I can measure the distance from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle (see the attached picture) and with this measurement now I can see that the right side is 2 mm too short, means it must be adjusted 2 mm more backwards. The tool is plugged into the pivot holes of the frame and then adjusted to the rear axle, checking both sides are the same measurement. A second check with the laser after the adjustment shows that the chain is absolut straight. So if one needs the bike in the best condition check for more than only the shock and the fork. Last futzed with by Somchai; January 23rd, 2016 at 11:38 PM. |
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January 6th, 2016, 09:57 AM | #68 | |
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January 6th, 2016, 11:21 AM | #69 |
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really wish you could just swap the spring on the stock shock.
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January 6th, 2016, 12:24 PM | #70 |
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January 6th, 2016, 12:27 PM | #71 | |
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January 6th, 2016, 07:12 PM | #72 |
ninjette.org member
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I thought everyone knew the swing arm marks were painted on by a drunk pixie hanging upside down by one leg.
They are the same price point as most of the other options (Ohlins, JRi) out there (~$600 or 1000) but Nitron has Ninja 300 shocks you can install and have confidence in the results. Compared to bodging an eBay shock together it's no bargain but those are the breaks. PM me if you want specifics. |
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January 7th, 2016, 08:03 PM | #73 | |
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January 8th, 2016, 07:35 AM | #74 |
ninjette.org member
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you want hte coil-over family. eg. 0700.225.0550
Measure your current shock spring to make sure but it should be 2.25" ID but some are 2.5". |
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January 10th, 2016, 02:11 PM | #75 |
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i found the spring coil over section, now I have to decide spring rate. The GSXR600 had approximately 4" of travel, i am having a more difficult time finding the travel of the EX250 shock. Does anyone have the rear spring travel for the EX250E-F series?
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January 10th, 2016, 04:16 PM | #76 |
ninjette.org member
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the gsxr had 4" of WHEEL travel. only about 60mm of shock travel. If you're going to do this task you really need to start making measurements and get Tony's software. By guess and by golly is the Internet way, I realize, but why not do it right?
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January 10th, 2016, 05:16 PM | #77 |
Chaplain
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I had seen his software a couple years ago, it seems like he has some additions to it now. If I was going to modify the suspension myself (valving, length change) I may consider plunking down 99 euro's for it. I know the stroke of the shock would determine whether it will work like it is. However, I am not sure what the EX250 stroke is until I pull out the shock and measure it. If the two shocks had comparable stroke, or if the GSXR600 shock was longer stroke, it would be acceptable. I guess I should just send it off and have it set up right. That will have to wait for a bit. $320 is what I can have it done for, and that is with provision of the shock, and I want the cartridges for the front forks first.
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January 10th, 2016, 07:39 PM | #78 |
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Matt I agree with you, not one ever made real measurements of what they did.
But it's like always, one starts to modify anything talks about it and since, for the main reason, the mod is cheap so all the sheeps follow (in happiness). I've been asking those who did it about the measurements more than one time, but (what is the lonely caller in the desert?)... So better just leave it like it is. |
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January 11th, 2016, 03:32 AM | #79 |
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I would like to bring 2 older posts back to mind.
One about how the Gixxer and Ninja shock's normally mounted: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...4&postcount=26 But much more important, a post about a compare of the shocks we talk about: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...63&postcount=1 I beg those to read, who'd contradict me about the ride-height with the GSXR-Shock. |
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January 11th, 2016, 06:53 AM | #80 |
ninjette.org member
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unless you're deliberately lowering the bike, you're nuts to use a shorter length shock. Unfortunately the second post makes no mention of what model shock was employed.
You can't source and rebuild/respring a GSXR for much less than a new shock from Sportisi US. So why bother when a proper solution is at hand? http://sportisimotorsport.us/index.p...ex&cPath=15_17 For the ninja 300, even with my discounts the JRi, Ohlins, or Nitron may be seen as too much and thus I can see the attraction of going with some kind of retrofit. |
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