Yoshimura Mikuni TMR-MJN32 Carburetor for the Ninja250R

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Hahahahhaa!

You had me at "I have no idea..."

I highly doubt a guy who spends $4500 on a current Ninja 250, would be foolish enough to spend another $1500 on carbs just to gain 3-5HP. $6K? Really? Go buy a used 600/650cc for that money.

I say it's a waste for Yoshi to invest all this effort and time, money building these because had they had inside contacts from Kawi they would have known a http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-c...nja-250R-1.jpg was coming out that produces way more HP and has tons of features. And will be priced lower than $6K.

I'm just saying their timing is late, and the costs are too great for US riders/racers to even consider.

Maybe in your country it may be worth upgrading the carbs for whatever government regulations you may have but here in the States...nah, the cost outweighs the benefits.

You could probably choose nicer words to use . Seems you can speak for everyone in the US too .

Maybe Yoshimura actually did their market research and figured out that there are still enough "foolish" people like me around who are willing spend $1500 on some carbs so that they can make a buck out of it. They possibly also figured out that these are the same foolish people that will spend $900 on an exhaust for a 5Hp gain, $400 on wider rims, $200 on steering stabilizers and all manner of other meaningless crap. Maybe they figured out that there are also thousands of people racing conventionally aspirated ninjettes all over the world who will buy good carbs. Actually I have spent more on plenty of other useless junk like a pair of shoes, various jewelry items for my wife (which didn't give me any joy at all) and also more on nights out with the boys if that puts it in better context for you.

FYI the 2009->2012 bike cost just over $5000 new in this country. All the mods on my Ninjette have probably cost over $5000 (not sure of the exact number and I don't care actually) but I do respect that costs could be an issue for other folk and I wouldn't call them names or imply that they are stupid. I am not alone... there are many "enthusiasts" here in Indonesia and all around the place which is what I thought this forum was all about. Plenty of people here spend at least 3-5K or more on mods for Ninjettes. Plenty of people here also spend up to 100K or more on Harleys and other bikes or boy toys. I think you will find that most enthusiasts don't really care that much about what it costs. Some people here are crazy about modding 100-150cc bikes and spend 2->3x the bikes cost on tricking out those too.

If I wanted a 600 then I would just buy a new zx6 or something else (not 2nd hand... btw new cost is about 25K here, ER6 is about 15K... sucks anyway). That is not the point. The thread is about TJN carbs for ninjettes.

If you want my Keihin CVK 30's then you can have them for free but you have to pay me the postage on principle (it will probably be $250 from here). Maybe you can sell them and buy a toaster-oven or something.

The point is... $1500 or otherwise that these carbs are very good.

[Jiggles]

$900 for a 5hp gain!?!? Yeesh, I'm about to spend $600 for a 6hp gain

[Jiggles]

And for $1500 don't you think you could have done a FAR better fuel injection conversion???

$1500 for carbs is insane when you consider the options

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

$900 for a 5hp gain!?!? Yeesh, I'm about to spend $600 for a 6hp gain

So long as it makes you feel good... why not.

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

And for $1500 don't you think you could have done a FAR better fuel injection conversion???

$1500 for carbs is insane when you consider the options

I don't think an aftermarket FI system will work too well and also none available where I am anyway. I don't think FI is going to get the same performance increase as race carbs because the main goals for FI are economy and clean emissions. Maybe can be similar performance if you add something like PowerCommander but this ends up being a lot more complex than bolting on carbs and tuning them. The price for carbs doesn't worry me. I think an FI kit and PowerCommander would probably be more expensive by the time you are done anyway.

[Jiggles]

I think you could do it for the same price or cheaper and get comparable or better performance. A powercommander isn't needed when you have a custom ECU like a microsquirt or megasquirt. Then add wideband O2 sensors and the bike will always be perfectly tuned no matter the elevation, temp, humidity, etc.

There is a self tuning kit sold for $600 and while the throttlebody that comes with it wouldn't come close to the performance of these carbs I don't think it would be difficult to find a TB that would be comparable or beat them.

[fordendk]

Yeah possibly. I really don't know with FI. Where I am in Indonesia it is really hard to get good mechanics to do the work also (they are all mostly self taught and not qualified). Something complex like FI with additional performance gear could be a nightmare here. Carbs are more fun anyway

[Jiggles]

Y U NO LERN WERK ON BIKE!?!?!

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Y U NO LERN WERK ON BIKE!?!?!

Done it all before but these days prefer to get somebody else to do the nuts and bolts . Maybe I'm just lazy or too old to bend down that low. There is no way I am gonna do an FI install by myself.
Posted via Mobile Device

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I think you could do it for the same price or cheaper and get comparable or better performance. A powercommander isn't needed when you have a custom ECU like a microsquirt or megasquirt. Then add wideband O2 sensors and the bike will always be perfectly tuned no matter the elevation, temp, humidity, etc.
.

Cracks me up when people say this. FI isnt magic! It only does what you tell to do. Guys are buying the auto tune, all the target A/F's are set at 13.2 for the maps. Thats across the board, and any tuner knows thats not correct.
And do you really think the O2 sensor compenate for all that? what are all the other sensors for??

Personally on some other motors, we have tried FI and carbs. A nice carb feels so much better to drive than FI. Doesnt have the mpg, but really has a crisper throttle response and more power wot.

I still dont get how they put down drafts on a normal motor and get them to work. Down hill seems like they work be perfect on the 250r

[Racer x]

I gotta give it up for carbs. I would buy these if I did not have CR Specials. Simple to tune and loads of power. No wires or sensors. Just a fuel line in.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by HKr1

FI isnt magic! It only does what you tell to do.

well said
those yoshi carbs are way easier to work with than the standard carbs.

i would have bought them if they were in the $800 range. my ecotron kit was nowhere near $1500, and i have been pleased with it.

Originally Posted by HKr1

Guys are buying the auto tune, all the target A/F's are set at 13.2 for the maps. Thats across the board, and any tuner knows thats not correct.
And do you really think the O2 sensor compensate for all that? what are all the other sensors for??

i think the main advantage and disadvantage to electronic fuel management is its complexity.
you can use swap maps quickly, check for errors, datalog, and tie into other electronic systems.

if people don't put the time into it, or know how to configure it.
they wont gain any of the advantages of EFI, other than fuel savings.

[fordendk]

I think what yall are saying here is probably 100%. I had a long talk with a guy today that does race bikes as well as street bikes. He said he has already tuned about 15 of the new 2013 FI Ninjettes already over last 2 months and they seriously lack power in low-mid rev ranges. He reckons the carb ninjas have more power and better throttle response when jetted and far better with race carbs. He said there is nothing much you can really do about it other than add an FI TM like PowerCommander and pray that the magic will be enough plus you still wont get anywhere near race carbs for throttle response and power. Anyway this guy tunes bikes for Sentul raceway which is very competitive here in Indo and he has a few wins under his belt so he should know what he is talking about.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by fordendk

You could probably choose nicer words to use . Seems you can speak for everyone in the US too .

I don't see anything wrong with how I worded my comments. Aren't you a sensitive princess.

Originally Posted by fordendk

Maybe Yoshimura actually did their market research and figured out that there are still enough "foolish" people like me around who are willing spend $1500 on some carbs so that they can make a buck out of it. They possibly also figured out that these are the same foolish people that will spend $900 on an exhaust for a 5Hp gain, $400 on wider rims, $200 on steering stabilizers and all manner of other meaningless crap. Maybe they figured out that there are also thousands of people racing conventionally aspirated ninjettes all over the world who will buy good carbs. Actually I have spent more on plenty of other useless junk like a pair of shoes, various jewelry items for my wife (which didn't give me any joy at all) and also more on nights out with the boys if that puts it in better context for you.

The most popular 250 race class here in the states go by the supersport/production rules. In other words, you have to run the OEM carbs with the option of adding a jet kit. And the reason why the Formula class aren't so popular and/or why I feel it shouldn't even be in the same sentence is because racers would now have to compete not only on a skill level but also how big one's wallet is. Ninja 250 racing is more or less for C.A.R.s (cheap ass racers). By restrictions modifications to the bike it allows an average joe to pretty much have the same set up as that of the top 250 racer. In addition, the Ninja 250 is a beginner bike. Kawi recognizes this as do any rider hence the low(er) pricing.

Originally Posted by fordendk

FYI the 2009->2012 bike cost just over $5000 new in this country. All the mods on my Ninjette have probably cost over $5000 (not sure of the exact number and I don't care actually) but I do respect that costs could be an issue for other folk and I wouldn't call them names or imply that they are stupid. I am not alone... there are many "enthusiasts" here in Indonesia and all around the place which is what I thought this forum was all about. Plenty of people here spend at least 3-5K or more on mods for Ninjettes. Plenty of people here also spend up to 100K or more on Harleys and other bikes or boy toys. I think you will find that most enthusiasts don't really care that much about what it costs. Some people here are crazy about modding 100-150cc bikes and spend 2->3x the bikes cost on tricking out those too.

If I wanted a 600 then I would just buy a new zx6 or something else (not 2nd hand... btw new cost is about 25K here, ER6 is about 15K... sucks anyway). That is not the point. The thread is about TJN carbs for ninjettes.

This comment pretty much sums it up for me. 25K for a 600cc bike vs 5K for a Ninja 250...no wonder a 1500 upgrade doesn't seem all that much to you. That's a huge gap from a 250 to a 600 in your country. In our country you can easily find a 600cc bike for $4500 or even less. <--Correction..I was referring to USED. And there is nothing absolutely wrong with used. To think NEW is always better is foolish. Different country with a different mindset, my friend.

Originally Posted by fordendk

If you want my Keihin CVK 30's then you can have them for free but you have to pay me the postage on principle (it will probably be $250 from here). Maybe you can sell them and buy a toaster-oven or something.

And I'm willing to bet my toaster-oven would still out ride you.

Originally Posted by fordendk

The point is... $1500 or otherwise that these carbs are very good.

For $1500, it better give me happy endings!

$1500 ain't no chump change in our country. For $1500 you can get a jetkit, rearsets, exhaust, clip-ons, race bodywork, engine oil, fork oil, double bubble windscreen, and HAPPY ENDINGS! versus a carb that will give you a slight advantage in the straights...if that? Yeah, good luck trying to convince someone to fork out $1500 for a set a carbs here in the states. And if someone does that person's prolly only into drag strip racing.

If you haven't noticed it by now people here are looking for deals and trying to get the best bang for their buck. otherwise you would have seen guys with Ohlins rearshocks, fancy pansy jobs after every crash, 5 race suits, 5 race gloves, 5 boots, 5 helmets, a truck, toy hauler, 2 race bikes, etc. Sheesh...you sound as if we throw our money in the air and say, "Let it rain!" We're just not rich like you...aight? Or maybe not foolish though again I can't speak for EVERYONE cuz I see dumb people everyday. Especially when I look in the mirror every morning.

[Somchai]

fordendk and also HKr1, Racer x and lgk you are absolut correct and that what the, i just call him tuning guy, told you fordendk is 100% correct.
When you're really looking for the most advantage of power there's nothing to compare against race carbs and for the most power you should add this: http://japan.webike.net/products/9363706.html
And about the 2013 Ninjette it's true, this model, i think never can have as much power as the 2008 to 2012, just look at given the data:
2008 EFI: compression ratio = 11.6 and it has 33 HP
2013 EFI: compression ratio = 11.3 and it has 32 HP
For really power output from the EFI you must change the EFI-system complete, not only add the power commander or leovince fast.
Real power tuning takes more, but i think you know about that.

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I don't see anything wrong with how I worded my comments. Aren't you a sensitive princess.



The most popular 250 race class here in the states go by the supersport/production rules. In other words, you have to run the OEM carbs with the option of adding a jet kit. And the reason why the Formula class aren't so popular and/or why I feel it shouldn't even be in the same sentence is because racers would now have to compete not only on a skill level but also how big one's wallet is. Ninja 250 racing is more or less for C.A.R.s (cheap ass racers). By restrictions modifications to the bike it allows an average joe to pretty much have the same set up as that of the top 250 racer. In addition, the Ninja 250 is a beginner bike. Kawi recognizes this as do any rider hence the low(er) pricing.



This comment pretty much sums it up for me. 25K for a 600cc bike vs 5K for a Ninja 250...no wonder a 1500 upgrade doesn't seem all that much to you. That's a huge gap from a 250 to a 600 in your country. In our country you can easily find a 600cc bike for $4500 or even less. <--Correction..I was referring to USED. And there is nothing absolutely wrong with used. To think NEW is always better is foolish. Different country with a different mindset, my friend.



And I'm willing to bet my toaster-oven would still out ride you.



For $1500, it better give me happy endings!

$1500 ain't no chump change in our country. For $1500 you can get a jetkit, rearsets, exhaust, clip-ons, race bodywork, engine oil, fork oil, double bubble windscreen, and HAPPY ENDINGS! versus a carb that will give you a slight advantage in the straights...if that? Yeah, good luck trying to convince someone to fork out $1500 for a set a carbs here in the states. And if someone does that person's prolly only into drag strip racing.

If you haven't noticed it by now people here are looking for deals and trying to get the best bang for their buck. otherwise you would have seen guys with Ohlins rearshocks, fancy pansy jobs after every crash, 5 race suits, 5 race gloves, 5 boots, 5 helmets, a truck, toy hauler, 2 race bikes, etc. Sheesh...you sound as if we throw our money in the air and say, "Let it rain!" We're just not rich like you...aight? Or maybe not foolish though again I can't speak for EVERYONE cuz I see dumb people everyday. Especially when I look in the mirror every morning.

Sounds like your dollars go a lot further in the US so lucky for you... nothing wrong with looking for deals. You should probably read what the others are saying about what good race carbs can do other than as you put it "give a slight advantage in the straights... if that". Based on what you said chief, it might also help you a little to think (or read) about what extra power and torque can do (along with the right line) for your corner/curve exit speeds because that is where many of the yards are gained... not so much on the straights.

For anyone that doesn't already know, there is a 100%->200% import duty on bikes over 250cc in Indonesia (I think even toaster ovens are more expensive than the US) and the traffic in the cities here is some of the worst in the world which makes big bikes somewhat impractical hence Ninjettes are very popular. In fact Indonesia is Kawi's biggest market in the world for Ninjettes. That is why they launched the 2013 Ninjette here before anywhere else (even before the USA).

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Sounds like your dollars go a lot further in the US so lucky for you... nothing wrong with looking for deals. You should probably read what the others are saying about what good race carbs can do other than as you put it "give a slight advantage in the straights... if that". Based on what you said chief, it might also help you a little to think (or read) about what extra power and torque can do (along with the right line) for your corner/curve exit speeds because that is where many of the yards are gained... not so much on the straights.

Something tells me you have selective reading. LOL Did you not read the Supersport/Production class rules I posted? But if you're talking about the streets...REALLY?

Originally Posted by fordendk

For anyone that doesn't already know, there is a 100%->200% import duty on bikes over 250cc in Indonesia (I think even toaster ovens are more expensive than the US) and the traffic in the cities here is some of the worst in the world which makes big bikes somewhat impractical hence Ninjettes are very popular. In fact Indonesia is Kawi's biggest market in the world for Ninjettes. That is why they launched the 2013 Ninjette here before anywhere else (even before the USA).

Duh! And, AGAIN, it's not the cost but the mentality.

As for your comment about the 2013...sigh...if only you knew.


All in all, it's your (in general) money. Spend it how you wish but don't go crying when someone on a stock bike goes blasting past you (again in general) with zero mods to the bike.

[fordendk]

Stock bike... blasting past... yeah right. Living the dream .

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by lgk

i would have bought the yoshi carbs, if they cost less than my EFI kit.

Im with you Jason. Fi seems like the best choice to me too.....how much is a kit and what it cost to get a tuner to do the install and setup? Slightly off topic but related.... :-)

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by thomason2wheels

Im with you Jason. Fi seems like the best choice to me too.....how much is a kit and what it cost to get a tuner to do the install and setup? Slightly off topic but related.... :-)

Kit is $600 but there is apparently a group buy right now. It's not that difficult to install yourself, certainly wouldn't pay someone else to do it

[Old Lemon]

yoshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[lgk]

Originally Posted by thomason2wheels

Im with you Jason. Fi seems like the best choice to me too.....how much is a kit and what it cost to get a tuner to do the install and setup? Slightly off topic but related.... :-)

kit is around $600 if you decide to upgrade the fuel lines and add disconnects.
if you decide to weld bungs for the o2 sensors it usually costs $50-$80 depending on the shop.

either allow for some dyno runs for tuning or get a wideband o2 guage.


probably close to $1000 to do it right.

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by lgk

kit is around $600 if you decide to upgrade the fuel lines and add disconnects.
if you decide to weld bungs for the o2 sensors it usually costs $50-$80 depending on the shop.

either allow for some dyno runs for tuning or get a wideband o2 guage.


probably close to $1000 to do it right.

The 1k it costs to do fi correctly would buy a lot of fuel. Maybe when the 013s or 014s come they will have fi and abs. Trade up for twice the money get more safety, more fuel economy, and a fresh bike. Sounds like a better deal overall. I think i am going to look into rejetting the stock carbs for acceptable driveability yeararound and save my pennies for an upgrade down the road.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by thomason2wheels

The 1k it costs to do fi correctly would buy a lot of fuel. Maybe when the 013s or 014s come they will have fi and abs. Trade up for twice the money get more safety, more fuel economy, and a fresh bike. Sounds like a better deal overall. I think i am going to look into rejetting the stock carbs for acceptable driveability yeararound and save my pennies for an upgrade down the road.

The difference is the kit lgk is talking about is self tuning to a perfect Afr of 14.7. It also has a rich mode that allows you to tune it yourself for max power. Far superior to stock efi

[lgk]

yea, if you compare the ecotrons kit to the stock one there are two main advantages.

with the ecotrons both the fuel delivery/ ignition is programmable and it has datalogging capability.

you would still have to pay for the dyno time and wideband for tuning either system. the price difference is not as large as you think.

eta: cmon yoshimura lower the price of these carbs please.

[fordendk]

Ninja Chris asked me to update this thread with Dyno results etc. Here is the Dyno after the carbs were fitted and re-jetted by the guys at the dyno shop:



I was not impressed with the guy doing the Dyno work as he was not rolling the throttle on smoothly but pinging it every time. This results in drowning the engine in lower rev range (see the dip from 6XXX -> 7XXX). Obviously he had no idea. Anyway the HP is now around 30 as expected. The main improvement same as the feel of the bike now is improved acceleration due to improved torque.

As you can see the torque is a much improved (19.88Nm pulling from 7XXX through to around 11XXX before dropping off vs the supposed standard of Max 18.4Nm at 10,000).

Next step for me is to get a port and polish job done on the heads. Here it costs about $150 and is low risk. The mechanics here told me that it will add around 4-5Hp to the bike as it is.

[Jiggles]

I beat you with stock carbs

[lgk]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Next step for me is to get a port and polish job done on the heads. Here it costs about $150 and is low risk. The mechanics here told me that it will add around 4-5Hp to the bike as it is.

what mods have you done with the bike already?

[fordendk]

Only other mod is arrow full system exhaust.jiggles, max hp is not everythig. My friends bike dyno same day with standard carbs and jet kit. His max hp slightly more than mine too. My bike still beats his easily in acceleration due to torque curve
Posted via Mobile Device

[lgk]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Only other mod is arrow full system exhaust./size]

the pod filter might help you, gain some more high end power but i'm not too sure how the low and mid range is effected by these carbs since the jet has multiple ports.

i wish these carbs were less than $900, i would really like to experiment with them

[fordendk]

Actually I wasn't really looking for more HP at high revs (although nice if you get that too) when I tried these carbs to start with. I was looking for better acceleration, throttle response and mid-range torque since the standard torque sucked... acceleration was really quite lousy. It is a lot better now.

From what the guys here told me it seems the port'n polish job should increase the max HP and also make additional torque so I will likely go for that soon (mainly for more torque). Maybe the guy just wants my $150 but it seems plausible to me.

Since these carbs use velocity stacks I think using an air filter can only have a negative impact on torque. You may be right in saying it will increase max HP and power in high revs but I am not sure that it will be anything noticeable for the ride.

I will try to update the forum again if I dyno (at another shop) after I get the p'n'p job done. If I am not completely satisfied (which is likely) after that then I will probably go for a 280cc bore up with 13.5:1 JE pistons and a Nassert Beet Cam. That should do something... have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO9yNpLTPyQ

[Jiggles]

You keep saying torque and hp as if they are different but they are really the same thing

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You keep saying torque and hp as if they are different but they are really the same thing

Hi Jiggles... they are very different things . Here is an article for you to read that explains the difference between torque and horsepower: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...wer-and-torque

For example even just changing sprockets alone can dramatically change rear wheel torque (not the torque at the crank). If you still don't get it then try changing your rear sprocket to a 48 (standard is 45), your front to a 14 (standard is 15). This makes the drive ratio about 3.43:1.

The standard Ninjette drive ratio is 45/15 = 3.0. To calculate the difference in rear wheel torque is ((3.41 - 3.0)/3.0) * 100 = 14.3% more torque. Obviously no change in horsepower. You will definitely feel 14.3% more torque.

[Jiggles]

For reference, horsepower = (torque*rpm)/5252

[lgk]

Originally Posted by fordendk

From what the guys here told me it seems the port'n polish job should increase the max HP and also make additional torque so I will likely go for that soon (mainly for more torque). Maybe the guy just wants my $150 but it seems plausible to me.

The port and polish usually nets only 5% hp increase, i don't think you can get 4hp out of it...

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by lgk

The port and polish usually nets only 5% hp increase, i don't think you can get 4hp out of it...

You are probably right. The 4hp was just what one of the guys selling it here told me so he would probably tell me anything to get a sale. I will probably go for it anyway and also go for the 282cc sleeves, JE pistons and cam once I get a week to do it. Anything for a laugh I guess. The only worry then will be heat so may also need to install a larger radiator, sub-radiator or different coolant... any ideas? Pretty hot here year-round.

BTW nice Zappa photo Jiggles. Ever listened to Zappa at all ?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by fordendk

You are probably right. The 4hp was just what one of the guys selling it here told me so he would probably tell me anything to get a sale. I will probably go for it anyway and also go for the 282cc sleeves, JE pistons and cam once I get a week to do it. Anything for a laugh I guess. The only worry then will be heat so may also need to install a larger radiator, sub-radiator or different coolant... any ideas? Pretty hot here year-round.

BTW nice Zappa photo Jiggles. Ever listened to Zappa at all ?

Haha no, I just knew the meme I was looking for

Now then,

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

For reference, horsepower = (torque*rpm)/5252

Looking at the dyno chart I posted above that formula would make my HP:

• 11K rpm... 18.2*11000/5252 = 38.11hp maximum
• 10K rpm... 19.56*10000/5252 = 37.24hp
• 9K rpm... 19.56*9000/5252 = 33.51hp

It clearly ain't.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Looking at the dyno chart I posted above that formula would make my HP:

• 11K rpm... 18.2*11000/5252 = 38.11hp maximum
• 10K rpm... 19.56*10000/5252 = 37.24hp
• 9K rpm... 19.56*9000/5252 = 33.51hp

It clearly ain't.

It applies to american horses and torque in foot pounds, not your silly gravity apples!

[Jiggles]

1 foot pounds = 1.35581795 newtons meter