Ecotrons Gen2 FI Kit Install

[setasai]

I'd also take some logs on a ride after warmup. I recorded 25mins of riding logs and it helped a ton. Just take it on a route that you know and look at how it runs. Then let it sit idle for a while and take those logs. Then blip it a few times, rev it, and mess around with some other throttle positions. Take the logs and flip through it and make sure that everything looks right.

If you get enough logs, Matt can usually pinpoint the issue quite quickly or at the very least have a couple ideas for you to try.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The only thing I'm a little worried about is the intake (or something) sounded a little poppy until I opened the throttle further and got the normal intake roar and the popping tone went away. Hopefully that goes away
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I had this initially too. If you warm it up and rev it through the entire rpm range slowly, the ECU will learn and it'll disappear.

You really cant judge it's performance until after some learning has occurred.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by setasai

I'd also take some logs on a ride after warmup. I recorded 25mins of riding logs and it helped a ton. Just take it on a route that you know and look at how it runs. Then let it sit idle for a while and take those logs. Then blip it a few times, rev it, and mess around with some other throttle positions. Take the logs and flip through it and make sure that everything looks right.

If you get enough logs, Matt can usually pinpoint the issue quite quickly or at the very least have a couple ideas for you to try.

Pretty late to be on ninjette dude, we should go for a ride instead

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Pretty late to be on ninjette dude, we should go for a ride instead

Haha. Yea with renovations falling behind, I dunno if I'll even get to ride before I leave. I leave on July 4th. Btw, I think you have one of my wrenches that I need to pick up.

[Jiggles]

I think I have 2 10mm's is that what you're missing?

Can I have your ninjette while your gone? You wouldn't want it to get neglected would you?

[choneofakind]

Yeah I thought about taking logs, but the thing is, the bike won't even attempt to idle after being fully warmed up, and needs throttle to start after being fully warmed up as well, so logging really isn't even possible until I can get it idling. By the instructions on the cd, and the page you linked, I'm pretty sure that means i'm way rich at idle and adding air should help. I also did a quick global change to about .65 instead of 1 temporarily, and it started right up while hot without any throttle, also confirming that the bike needs a less rich mixture down low. I'll get a chance to play with the screws tonight,and will let you know what happens. For reference, I also did triple check that the injectors and oxygen sensors were hooked up to the correct side of the engine; all good there. Funny thing is, the bike starts great cold, and comes to a perfect idle right at 1500 until it warms up, then the idle changes to a rough up and down from 1000-1400. If I go for a ride to get the whole engine up to temp, it won't idle at all.

btw, the popping noise is almost completely gone after a long ride last night.
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[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yeah I thought about taking logs, but the thing is, the bike won't even attempt to idle after being fully warmed up, and needs throttle to start after being fully warmed up as well, so logging really isn't even possible until I can get it idling. By the instructions on the cd, and the page you linked, I'm pretty sure that means i'm way rich at idle and adding air should help. I also did a quick global change to about .65 instead of 1 temporarily, and it started right up while hot without any throttle, also confirming that the bike needs a less rich mixture down low. I'll get a chance to play with the screws tonight,and will let you know what happens. For reference, I also did triple check that the injectors and oxygen sensors were hooked up to the correct side of the engine; all good there. Funny thing is, the bike starts great cold, and comes to a perfect idle right at 1500 until it warms up, then the idle changes to a rough up and down from 1000-1400. If I go for a ride to get the whole engine up to temp, it won't idle at all.

btw, the popping noise is almost completely gone after a long ride last night.
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you can take logs even if the engine isnt on or idling right. It will still help whats going on the momment you start it to what happens when it warms up a bit.

[choneofakind]

Ok, the screws didn't work. I read the instructions on how to log it, but when I started the bike, the computer said recording had been terminated. I finally emailed matt asking for help. On the bright side, the rest of my rpm band seems to be improving with each ride. I just have to hold the throttle to keep the bike running at lights haha.
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[choneofakind]

Next question. Why is the bike only acting funny when the engine temp sensor gets above 100? It will start and idle as long as the temp is below 100. The second it goes above 100, it gets a really low, really erratic idle that always dies and won't allow it to run again. It also dies at this temp whenever blipped. Did anyone else have similar issues at all or is there something wrong with my intake leaking or something like that?
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[lgk]

whats your warm up temp factor in procal?

what is your idle 02 voltage?

[choneofakind]

Idle O2 voltage was flip flopping like it should. Warm up temp factor has not been touched, so it's whatever it came with from matt. I'm going over the intake now to check for leaks so I can rule out all physical parts before we start messing too much with the numbers.

Igk I forget, are running a pregen with a k&n pod filter? Also, is your idle even like it should be? Because mine is oscillating like mad and has been since I got it running.
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[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Idle O2 voltage was flip flopping like it should. Warm up temp factor has not been touched, so it's whatever it came with from matt. I'm going over the intake now to check for leaks so I can rule out all physical parts before we start messing too much with the numbers.

Igk I forget, are running a pregen with a k&n pod filter? Also, is your idle even like it should be? Because mine is oscillating like mad and has been since I got it running.
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i have a new gen with a kn filter and exhaust.
idle used to fluctuate for a couple of seconds, then steady at 1600.

after some adjustment with the idle screw, and a new cal file the idle is steady at 1600.

i placed my intake air temp sensor in the middle of my filter.
that way i wouldn't get pulsing from being in a runner.
im not sure if it made a difference, since i don't know the sampling rate of the sensor. i also try to isolate the wiring from the motor so the reading is not distorted from the engine heat.

have you run a datalog when the problem occurs?

[setasai]

Logging shouldnt terminate as long as the key is in the ON position.

When you have the bike warmed up after a ride and am having the idle issue, turn the key to the ON position, hook up the computer and connect everything and record logs. Then hit the starter, let it die, and repeat at least 3 times. Stop logging and send those logs to Matt. You should take a look at the logs too and see if you notice anything.

It's strange that you are having this issue. I remember way back with gen 1, I had issues with idling after a long ride and I'd have to do something similar like hold the throttle open a little bit to keep it revving. I didnt have this issue come back since the new TB so I still dont know what is causing it.

Goodluck!

Edit: did you install the decel cable as well?

[choneofakind]

yeah everything is installed just like terminals setup, minus the plate under the pump. I sent a few good logs to matt of it acting funny, he says he'll get back to me Monday with some help If it turns out to be because my air temp sensor is in the boot, I'll just seal the hole and put it in the k&n instead.

Sorry for jacking the good install thread here terminal! I guess this adds that last important step of "take data and talk with matt if there's issues because he is willing to help" to your install thread.
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[Terminal]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Sorry for jacking the good install thread here terminal! I guess this adds that last important step of "take data and talk with matt if there's issues because he is willing to help" to your install thread.
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This is one of the few Ecotrons threads that hasn't been shat up by a certain two sour grapes (who never actually installed kits), I'm glad to see it being used for the various issues and solutions that others have found!

Matt got me a new CAL last week based on my super-rich logs and they have helped immensely with only a little bit of bogging left at high RPM's. I sent in a few more logs with the new CAL to see if we need further map tweaks or if self-learning can adjust everything from this point.

Re: IAT sensor, peeking at the logs as well as the live gauges when I start logging indicates that it is receiving an accurate temp when installed in the Ecotrons intake boot. Generally starts close to ambient and rises a bit as the engine starts warming some of the incoming air, so at least in my case the sensor is working fine installed in the boot.

[choneofakind]

I raised the rpm where the fuel starts again up to 3000 from 2020 rpm. It seems to idle at lights and not die as long as I let the engine slow down to where the fuel starts again, then let it idle. It is getting better at idling after every ride because it's learning. I also changed the value of the startup fuel when hot. It now fires. All I need to play with is the after start values to keep it running without the throttle, although those air screws are highly tempting... Anyhow, once the idle gets sorted out (I should be able to rev it and let it come to idle on its own without having to baby it down to 1500 rpm...) , i think it's ready for rich mode because it's smooth and responsive all over the rpm range. I want it on rich mode asap because right now it runs hot, smells lean, and doesn't pull nearly as hard as it should up top in eco mode (i know this isn't good on the valves long term) and i want that pregen top end that I've become addicted to

i also got some good logs of my bike trying to start while it was warm, both before and after i leaned the start-up fuel value a little. After i leaned it a little, i definitely got it to fire more easily

last question for now: switching to rich mode does not mess with a)the start-up and after-start values b) the idle mix (stays at a value of 1) or c) the warm-up fuel, correct? Basically, if i switch to rich mode before all my idle issues are worked out, i won't be taking a step backwards right? Or if we do get them right, switching to open loop won't mess it all up?

I hope I'm not the only one learning while posting and reading about this. It really is just overwhelming right when you start at it, but now it's starting to make a little more sense as i think about it and diagnose it and play with values a little more.
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[EMSRacer07]

yeah rich mode is when engine is warmed up etc. might be a little rough at idle. mine in rich mode was a bit rough but i liked it glad u got it all going now.

[choneofakind]

ok, still having issues. Matt is working with me, but you guys are faster with the responses...

Matt has been looking at my logs with me, and he has the ability to look at the readings from both O2 senseors at the same time, so he can tell me if my air screws are off or not. I guess I have version 7.0 because when I check the info on my program, it says I have 7.0, so that leaves me confused. I seriously am at an impass because I am not the best with computers, and I really don't know how to read the data like matt does.

He's been trying to teach me how to read the data that I log, but I'm still not getting it fully, and I really suck at using this program.

Does anyone really rock at using the program and reading the logs who can help me? I want to be able to log data, and then play it back so that I can see both O2 sensors at the same time.

I need to see:
uLsb: voltage signal of lambda sensor #1
uLsb2: voltage signal of lambda sensor #2
fLc: factor of lambda control cyl #1
fLc2: factor of lambda control cyl #2
all at the same time. I'm confused.

My bike still doesn't idle. It got better, then I started playing with the air screws a little and f***ed it up now I need to be able to see those so I can fix what I did.

The rest of the rpm range and throttle range is awesome. Very smooth and responsive all over, and there's lots of torque all over the place (for a 250) the idle still sucks when it's warmed up all the way after 15 minutes or more of riding. GAH! I'm computer retarded I swear. Ask alex.s about the day he tried to explain the internet to me! haha

[Jiggles]

Time to drop out of engineering I suppose....

[choneofakind]

Dude, I'm a mechanical. They teach us how to use programs we need. I know how to use those, but I suck at figuring programs out on my own because I can't hold them and take them apart. Anyhow, I think matt got me enough info that I can figure it out. Apparently I just have to tell it to display all variables with the oscilloscope open. Idk I'll look at it this evening after work. Any advice is very welcome though!!!
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[choneofakind]

Hmmm I'm getting close. I'll make a new thread with instructions on how to use procal eventually.

My tb's were out of sync. I've gotten them close but they still need to be perfect so I can get ride of the oscillating idle.

I'm going to use alex.s's method of syncing carbs. Take bike for ride to get it warm. Pit bike on a stand and let it run. Bigass fan to push air through the radiator. Then I'll hook up to procal and log data while I view my data with the oscilloscope and tune my air screws till both TB's are synced and my voltage readings from my oxygen sensors are even. @alex.s, what size fan do I need to idle my bike for say a half hour without it overheating or needing the radiator fan to kick on? I want to get these mofos synced tonight and am wondering if I can use a box fam or if k should borrow the 2.5' diameter industrial fan from work.
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[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Hmmm I'm getting close. I'll make a new thread with instructions on how to use procal eventually.

My tb's were out of sync. I've gotten them close but they still need to be perfect so I can get ride of the oscillating idle.

I'm going to use alex.s's method of syncing carbs. Take bike for ride to get it warm. Pit bike on a stand and let it run. Bigass fan to push air through the radiator. Then I'll hook up to procal and log data while I view my data with the oscilloscope and tune my air screws till both TB's are synced and my voltage readings from my oxygen sensors are even. @alex.s, what size fan do I need to idle my bike for say a half hour without it overheating or needing the radiator fan to kick on? I want to get these mofos synced tonight and am wondering if I can use a box fam or if k should borrow the 2.5' diameter industrial fan from work.
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A regular box fan will not work. Any chance you have a electric hand held blower like this?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

A regular box fan will not work. Any chance you have a electric hand held blower like this?

doesnt have enough cfms...

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by lgk

doesnt have enough cfms...

I respectfully disagree.

[choneofakind]

no i don't have one of those. That looks like it would only usd a small part of the radiator. I was hoping to use the whole thing by getting a mongo fan.
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[dubojr1]

It could be set back about 4 feet from the front of the bike and would cover the whole engine and radiator. These units generally put out 125+ mph winds at the nozzle. Once it spreads out some I'm certain it would be as good as going down the road at 45 mph. Plenty of air for a bike that is just idling.

Neighbor or buddy have one?

[lgk]

Get one of those floor drying fans, and put it on a chair.
they are more than powerful enough for a ninja.

[choneofakind]

that's what I have at work. Industrial size fan.
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[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by lgk

Get one of those floor drying fans, and put it on a chair.
they are more than powerful enough for a ninja.

That should be perfect! That's basically what they use on dyno's.

[alex.s]

Without reading anything in this thread... A big ass fan. @choneofakind

[choneofakind]

WOOOOOOT! GOT IT RUNNING BETTER! I got my cylinders evened out with the really big fan and idling method.

Then it was being dumb when I pulled the brake lever and lit the tail light. Derp. Too much electrical load on my bike with a brighter brake light and running lights up front I guess. Idk. So I pulled the oxygen sensors and put it on rich mode. ABOUT TIME!! it idles perfectly at 1500 and is smooth and strong all the rest of the way. Love it!!!!

I still notice when my brake light or high beam is on because the isle gets a little choppy again, but not bad. I guess it's time to do more research on 35W hid lights to save some juice so I can keep my 2357 brake light bulb. Twist my arm haha I want more light output anyways.
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[jcgss77]

Do all the Ecotron's FI systems keep the idle at 1500rpm? Is it possible to get the idle lower? Both the pregens I have owned idle sweetly at 1k with the carbs.

[lgk]

you can set it to idle the way you like.

it runs well at 1500, so i just left it.

[choneofakind]

Idk how you get your carbs to idle that low... I always set my carba at 1500 to test mixture since it was easy to tell how it was changing when using the 1500 line to reference. Then I turned it down to the 1300-1400 range

the fi will idle wherever you want it, but you know stock idle is 1200-1400 right? Usually at 1000 the bike is about to poop out
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[jcgss77]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Idk how you get your carbs to idle that low... I always set my carba at 1500 to test mixture since it was easy to tell how it was changing when using the 1500 line to reference. Then I turned it down to the 1300-1400 range

the fi will idle wherever you want it, but you know stock idle is 1200-1400 right? Usually at 1000 the bike is about to poop out
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Sorry, I was mistaken. My '02 idled at 1k, and it ran strong, no trying to die. It never stalled out at idle. However, my '04, which as a Muzzy, K&N Pods, and jetted idles best at 13k. Sorry about that.

[choneofakind]

No apologies needed! I was just thinking, "man, what was he doing that I wasn't???"

I'm a big fan of muzzy's and k&n pod filters with fuel injection. Top end!
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[jcgss77]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

No apologies needed! I was just thinking, "man, what was he doing that I wasn't???"

I'm a big fan of muzzy's and k&n pod filters with fuel injection. Top end!
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I would love to have the FI!!!

I am glad you wrote that, about being a fan of muzzy's and such. I was thinking today that I am not a fan of the loud noise that the Muzzy's makes, and I would like to propose a trade, my Muzzy's 2-into-1, including headers, carbs, and K&N pods(all 3) for a Cobra F1 set with headers or any other 2-into-1 (which is quieter than Muzzy's), a stock carb set and airbox with filter. I will post this trade in the proper section also.

[choneofakind]

Interesting idea for a trade. Are F1's quieter than the Muzzy? You might be able to just get an sirbox and open the intake lid. That makes a really great sound, pretty good performance, and does not produce excessive noise like a pod filter does. You should look into a used air box on eBay it something.
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[jcgss77]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Interesting idea for a trade. Are F1's quieter than the Muzzy? You might be able to just get an sirbox and open the intake lid. That makes a really great sound, pretty good performance, and does not produce excessive noise like a pod filter does. You should look into a used air box on eBay it something.
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I will just put it this way: I can barely hear the engine with the Muzzy's, it roars. I frequently work until 11pm, and I don't like that kind of attention. The F1 is very deep, but you can still hear the engine. I really liked my F1, but I like a 2-into-1 too.

[choneofakind]

Does anyone know what I could use to make varying lengths of intake runners for science?

For reference, I'm talking about those black tubes that go from the TB's to the pod filter (or airbox if you're using that)