March 25th, 2013, 05:12 PM | #41 |
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Here are a few photos that detail the fitting and hose sizes.
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March 25th, 2013, 05:14 PM | #42 |
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Not really. When multiple people use the exact same install method, then any problems and their solutions will also be the same.
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March 25th, 2013, 05:22 PM | #43 |
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Yes, but most of us are using the non-unit install method.
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March 25th, 2013, 05:25 PM | #44 |
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The modular install method wasn't available when you installed yours. The modular install takes the trial and error out of the equation.
EDIT: And you still have the fuel pump outlet on the non-left side of the bike.
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March 25th, 2013, 05:28 PM | #45 |
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The modular install has always been an option. I didn't do it because I don't have the tools to cut pieces of metal and make brackets. I also don't see it as particularly beneficial/harmful either. It's the same parts arranged differently. There is no one way that is superior. As long as everything is hooked up and located according to the directions, the bike will run.
I've had no trial and error. I did it all in one afternoon, and the bike has been running ever since. |
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March 25th, 2013, 05:41 PM | #46 | |
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Quote:
Designing a modular install that actually works properly is not as easy as it seems. Every single bracket went through multiple revisions before they were right. Little things can screw everything up and you have to start over. The tubing has to be placed just right or you can have cavitation of air bubbles in the fuel pump. And the list goes on. It can be installed either way, but the modular design is the only documented design that actually works.
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March 25th, 2013, 06:03 PM | #47 | |
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... Mine works. Byron's works. Igk's works. Scattcatt's works (until he had mechanical difficulty). diwhiteii's works. This one works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEsill-Yxss (she's a member here, I forget her username) There's many more. Just because you're the only one with a 'documented design', doesn't mean it's the only method that works. You'll see a bigger improvement from adjusting your timing and fuel map than from installing the physical parts a certain way. I'm not insulting your work. Like I said when you posted it, it's a nicely done job. I even took some points from your install; I'm using better EFI clamps, elbows and a T to replace parts I have now. I'm also going to replace all my fuel line and go to an air box because you've had such good luck with the air box on your install. I promise, I'm not insulting your work; I just don't think it's a necessity like you do because I know how well it works without all that extra time/money/work/hassle. |
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March 25th, 2013, 06:50 PM | #48 |
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Well, thinking about climbing Mt. Everest and actually doing it are two different things. As far as I know, my modular design is the only one ever actually completed. I would like to have made it even more modular, but I wanted the average person to be able to do it without needing machining tools and such.
Everyone else who installed the kit did not have the video to go by. I just released it. So a quick and dirty rats nest install was the only way possible. Yes it works that way, but how many installs have had to be redone because something wasn't right? Loli and a certain frog I know for sure.
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March 25th, 2013, 07:15 PM | #49 |
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only thing i added was fuel shut off disconnects. But yeah give it a shot on the install and if you want to change stuff around you can.
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March 25th, 2013, 08:40 PM | #50 |
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Well Rick's bad install was because the PO was obviously not mechanically inclined and put every sensor in the wrong place and then sold the bike because he couldn't get it to run right. The only thing that's messy on mine is the wiring harness, thank you. Lets see your not-messy wiring harness.
The only reason this frog is redoing some stuff is because he wants 2 things: 1) the air box and 2) fuel cutoffs after the original fuel cutoffs leaked. The fuel line is being replaced because of discoloring. The supplied Y-junction is being replaced with a T-junction because the angles are annoying. That's a function of the kit and cheap cutoffs, not the install. Other than that, my install is just fine. The elbows are because I don't like bending fuel line around corners. |
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March 25th, 2013, 08:43 PM | #51 |
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I probably won't change too much around seeing as the way he did it works. No problems other than what he include in the addendum. I've been somewhat studying the way he did it and if it's not broken I'm not gunna fix it lol we'll see tho once I have everything in front of me. My only issue is the CNC machining of the brackets. I've emailed two people that I know have access to them. One works for the University of Buffalo and the other still works for my old high school as an engineering teacher. Been out of high school for almost 7 years now lol either one might be able to mill me up something n
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March 25th, 2013, 08:58 PM | #52 |
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His experience is the perfect example of why a proven modular install works best. He bought that bike reportedly from an electrical engineer. A guy who just started bolting parts on the bike and hoped it all worked. From what I hear, his install didn't work out that well and Loli had to spend a good bit of time fixing everything.
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March 25th, 2013, 09:07 PM | #53 |
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Very true. But not everyone has the ability to cheaply make brackets out of steel sheet either. Everyone has the ability to buy some fuel line, some elbows, a T, attach the sensors, and bolt the pump onto the battery box.
Besides, I've always told interested ninjetters to make sure they know what they're getting into and know the basics of how the FI parts work in the system. That's exactly why. The OP of Rick's bike clearly didn't understand what each part was doing, nor did he understand how to use procal and got frustrated and quit. I think prior knowledge is more important than having everyone do the install the same way. |
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March 25th, 2013, 09:23 PM | #54 | |
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Quote:
The bracket drawings are 1:1 scale when printed. Just stick them to the aluminum (from the hardware store) and cut them out with tin snips. The aluminum is so thin that its probably possible to use a cheap throwaway pair of scissors. Once the flats are cut out, drill the holes. Then fold it in a vice or with sheet metal pliers. Then pop rivet it. As far as parts for the build, your local hardware store is probably the best bet for most everything you need. Fittings, metals, clamps, etc. I was not able to find a single source for everything online. One thing is that if you don't want a fuel test port, you can replace the Tee and close nipple with a street Ell. Also, regarding the regulator bracket, when installing, make sure it doesn't touch the center linkage between the two throttle bodies. It shouldn't because I left enough space in the bracket, but if you missed cutting that out, then it could bind. I left making the brackets out of the video because its too simple. A pair of sheet metal pliers makes it easier though. If enough people complain, I might make another video showing exactly how the brackets are made.
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March 25th, 2013, 09:26 PM | #55 |
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Well, I'm still going to stick with my method because it works just fine. I'm more worried about getting my mix perfected.
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March 25th, 2013, 09:43 PM | #56 |
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Since you are redoing everything, why not go modular?
I can help you with the brackets if that is an issue.
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March 25th, 2013, 10:14 PM | #57 |
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Ah. I don't know where I got CNC milling from lol I guess the CAD-like drawings that you made up made me believe they were CNC milled. That makes it all much simpler lol
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March 25th, 2013, 11:00 PM | #58 |
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Does anybody here let their bike warm up before riding? Why is it necessary to warm up the bike before riding? I know I've almost laid over while do a uie out of a parking space because my bike stalled, but that won't happen anymore after it is installed. I just learned about shimming after signing up for the kit. I'm still excited about the kit, but I kind of want to see how much better it runs with it shimmed. My bike is horrible, it won't stay running even with the choke on while I aggressively pump the throttle. It dies 10 ten times before I can get it to run. This is in 50 degree weather. I don't even bother trying at 30 degrees, but who want to ride then anyway. Not that I have a choice since this is the only vehicle I have. I just carpool when the weather is bad.
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March 26th, 2013, 05:16 AM | #59 | |
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Quote:
either its jetted wrong or the carbs need cleaned.
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March 26th, 2013, 06:57 AM | #60 | ||
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Shimming does nothing for warming up while idling. Shimming helps with mid-throttle fuel delivery (which can help warm-up times if you warm it up while riding). Use necessary choke to keep the warm-up idle speed around 2000-2500 rpm. Back off the choke as the idle starts shooting up (as the engine warms) but don't turn it off completely. Use just enough to keep the idle between 2000 and 2500 at all times. Contrary to popular belief, using choke during start/warm-up is not a bad thing. Slip the clutch a little more to guarantee smooth starts/stops, and keep the rpm's under about 7k until it's warm. If you have trouble starting cold, uncap the mixture screws, and turn them out just a bit. They should be out a total of 2-2.5 turns. |
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March 26th, 2013, 06:59 AM | #61 | |
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Quote:
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March 26th, 2013, 02:21 PM | #62 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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March 26th, 2013, 02:47 PM | #63 |
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I was always told that all motor vehicles should be allowed to warm up before you do any serious driving with them. Cars, boats, motorcycles, lawnmowers, carb, efi, everything. The oil is going through the ninja in less than 5 seconds, but its cold and not optimal. The parts are different sizes at different temperatures. The ninja crank journal tolerance is measured in microns. Very high tolerance. Its just much happier when its warm. The reason I am told that an engine needs choke (more gas) is to overcome the higher friction when its cold.
In your case, you clearly have some plugged jets. The idle jets most likely. And yes, if a bike sits with gas in the carb bowls without being ridden for very long, it will get clogs in the jets. After you get your EFI going, you can pull it apart and clean it at your leisure.
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March 26th, 2013, 03:06 PM | #64 |
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Definitely check the carbs to make sure they're clean before tinkering with them at all.
But that is for another thread. Sorry for getting OT D. |
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April 7th, 2013, 08:52 PM | #65 |
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Have you gotten any comments on your video from ecotrons?
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April 8th, 2013, 07:12 AM | #66 |
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not that I know of.
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April 8th, 2013, 11:21 AM | #67 | |
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Quote:
Simply revving an engine does very little to warm it up, since you are flowing so much more air thru the cylinders it is taking away the vast majority of the extra fuel you have burned. |
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April 9th, 2013, 08:48 PM | #68 |
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Is it possible for the pump to cavitate while leaning for a certain period of time since the pump inlet might dip a little lower than the outlet? This fuel pump is worrying the hell out of me I wish it was like a car's pump. Should I just get the inlet as high as possible just stick with the modular design or both?
Btw my local hardware store doesn't have **** in their store. no gasket maker, barbed elbows, or nipples. gotta wait another week before even starting the first part of install. That and the weather sucks over here. |
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April 9th, 2013, 09:33 PM | #69 |
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That's why the inlet is higher than the outlet. So the bubbles can rise. I made mine so the outlet is just barely under the horizontal when the bike is on the side stand.
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April 9th, 2013, 10:10 PM | #70 | |
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Quote:
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April 9th, 2013, 10:45 PM | #71 |
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So do the bigger bikes with fuel injection have this same set up where the pump is outside the tank or are they actually inside the tank like automobiles.
I just don't want to stall out while making a fast sharp turn and loose a limb. red250r, so you didn't get that bracket with what looks like rubber padding for the fuel pumop either? I thought I just lost my because I have a bad habit of getting excited when I open a package and throwing eeverything everywhere and loosing ****. Btw I think I'm just going to make a bracket that wraps around the pump, then cut out three of those other bracket for the pump and rtv them together becaude there is no way I am going to spend 20 bucks on a 4' piece of angle and only use an inch of it. |
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April 9th, 2013, 11:02 PM | #72 |
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Idk about other fuel injected bikes. I've never taken one apart.
But you won't stall out around turns. |
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April 10th, 2013, 01:15 AM | #73 | |
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Quote:
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April 10th, 2013, 05:08 AM | #74 | |
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Quote:
The hardware store I use that seems to have most everything is an independent True Value store. @choneofakind also found some inexpensive stainless steel fuel fittings at a beverage supply place. You might have stores like that in your local area. Regarding the OEM placement of fuel pumps on bikes, they go in the tank and usually incorporate the regulator and everything so the only thing that usually comes out is the fuel line. They use a dead end fuel rail approach for simplicity, but they can suffer cavitation issues because of that too. Has the fuel rail changed any in the new kit?
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April 10th, 2013, 05:44 AM | #76 |
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I'm surprised that these weren't included with the kit this time. They came with the last one. Maybe ask Matt if he forgot to include them.
If you have a NAPA store near you, you might check these out: http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...144_0146597141
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April 10th, 2013, 01:27 PM | #77 |
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Yeah that definitely wasn't included in the kit.
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April 10th, 2013, 02:35 PM | #78 |
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Based on what Matt said about the new pump, I think you guys need to be extra careful when routing the inlet side of the pump. According to Matt, my original assumption, that the bubbles are ejected on the high pressure side, was incorrect. Since the bubbles are ejected against the flow of the gasoline on the inlet, care needs to be taken to ensure that the inlet tubing has a constant upwards slope back to the tank.
Because of this difference, I'm thinking a better approach than the way I did it in the video would be to install the filter as close to the tank as possible and then run the hose under the intake tubes and then around to the inlet of the pump. If you install he filter like in the video, make sure that its not tilted downward with the fuel pump. It should go flat across. As always, the pump outlet still needs to be lower than the inlet.
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April 10th, 2013, 03:15 PM | #79 |
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Yeah, I want to see how the new pump works before I comment on it. I'm not sure about it.
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April 11th, 2013, 09:30 AM | #80 |
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california bike??
after watching the install video I learned my bike is a california bike. I had no idea (i live in salt lake city, ut) im assuming that might be partly why it runs like crap???? anyways i have barely used any forum at all and have a hard time searching them. is there a thread about how to install the kit on a california bike? or how is it different with the petcock??
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