June 7th, 2011, 03:42 AM | #41 |
Wannabe Reborn
Name: Unregistered
Location: Cincy Ohio
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I looked into this kit a little more and by no means am I on any level near where most of you are. The software is definetly not very UI and basic. I can't install as I'm running Mac and gave up Boot Camp There is a decent following of this, with support out there though.
$499 for the kit is not too extreme, but what would really set this off is if after it is tried and tested, software 'packages' start becoming available to those who can't tune. What I mean, is if I install this kit, and an aftermarket exhaust, someone has already setup a tried and tested tune that I can easily import into the ECU. Pair that with a Power Commander, and we're talking business. $1000 for a decent upgrade. When is that thing showing up Forbitel?
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June 7th, 2011, 04:34 AM | #42 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
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Tune
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June 7th, 2011, 05:11 AM | #43 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: telecom
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Quote:
But yes, I believe it is possible to save the final map to a file for others to use as an starting point. I will get inform on this. I spoke with Matt (ecotrons), the kit was shipped on Wednesday from oversea that is why is taking so long, although that is less than a week, maybe I'm too impatient . |
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June 7th, 2011, 09:18 AM | #44 |
ModMy250.com
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Any idea what it tunes for during open loop?
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June 7th, 2011, 09:52 AM | #45 |
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30s
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June 7th, 2011, 10:38 AM | #46 |
ModMy250.com
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Yeah, I'm sure the closed loop is fine, but when you're accelerating and pass a certain throttle point, it should go from closed to open loop to keep the AF ratio from being too lean. 14.7 is great for idle and cruising, not so good for WOT. I'm just curious what it does during WOT operation.
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June 7th, 2011, 12:27 PM | #47 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Checking the software I noted there are about 49 variables for basic fine tuning and a bunch more for advance tuning. Uploaded with ImageShack.us |
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June 7th, 2011, 12:46 PM | #48 |
ModMy250.com
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Looks good. If it's this tune-able, you wouldn't need a power commander.
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June 12th, 2011, 11:43 AM | #49 |
Wannabe Reborn
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Has this showed up yet? I'm super interested in this, so much that I am actively looking for a replacement 250...just got a second job this past week
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June 12th, 2011, 01:46 PM | #50 | |
ninjette.org member
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Max tunable rpm?
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June 12th, 2011, 02:38 PM | #51 |
Wannabe Reborn
Name: Unregistered
Location: Cincy Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): Blue 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: 302
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What concerns me with this whole kit, is the price and tunablility.
Price: Somewhat affordable for most, at least those who have some extensive mods. Tunability: Someone who has a laptop with no knowledge whatsoever will install this and then post on here that their bike won't start, run, etc...The software is looking very tunable, but for those who don't know, changing a value here or there could spell disaster. On the flip side, hopefully after a few install it, we should have a pretty good idea where this puts the bike in terms of performance and how road friendly it is.
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June 13th, 2011, 05:04 AM | #52 |
ninjette.org member
Name: telecom
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I received the kit last Thursday, it was sent from oversea the Wednesday before last week so that makes it about 7 business days not bad for an international shipping. The shipping box could have been better, however what I care is inside (they wrapped it good with bubble wraps). I will post pictures of the kit tonight after work.
I didn't have time to work on the bike until yesterday, I already removed the fairing, Gas tank, and the complete exhaust. Today, I will have a body shop to arc weld the O2 sensor's bungs into the exhaust pipe. I'm still trying to round some corner like the correct O2 sensor position, the gas tank return, I removed the Petcock with the intention to make a plate for it but i noticed that our petcock has a fuel filter attached to it so it would be nice to retain the petcock if I can, I will see tonight if I could install a nipple on the fuel level sender plate. Again, I will post pictures as soon as possible, However once I get everything working I will post a nice DYI. |
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June 13th, 2011, 07:45 AM | #53 |
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I will look around. I made a plate to run a hose from the level sender. If you need it I will be glad to donate it.
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June 13th, 2011, 10:20 AM | #54 | |
IC2(SW)
Name: Kerry
Location: Pensacola
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Quote:
If your trying for 14.7 across the board, you better do some research...... |
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June 13th, 2011, 12:29 PM | #55 |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
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Not sure what you mean?
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June 13th, 2011, 12:37 PM | #56 |
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He's saying that 14.7:1 (14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio) isn't what you always want in a gasoline engine.
For maximum horsepower (in a gasoline powered engine) you tune to achieve a 12.1:1 to 13.1:1 air to fuel ratio. For maximum fuel efficiency (in a gasoline powered engine) you tune to achieve about a 16.0:1 air to fuel ratio. Here it is again, copied from a website devoted to fuel injection tuning: To make maximum power, we want more fuel than stoich. (richer, aka. lower AFR), because we want to be sure to consume ALL the oxygen (even if a little fuel is unburned). Typical full power AFR are 12:1 to 13:1 for gasoline. This is because it is the air flow that limits power (not fuel flow), To get maximum fuel efficiency, we want to make the mixture a little leaner (higher AFR, about 15:1 to 16:1) than stoich to be sure of burning all the fuel, To get minimum emissions, we want to run stoich. (14.7:1) as much as possible. |
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June 13th, 2011, 12:58 PM | #57 |
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This is the AFR lookup table from a normally aspirated fuel injected car engine (probably a 4 or 6 cylinder)
RPMs on the "x" axis and engine intake vacuum (measured in kPa) on the "y" axis control the table to deliver proper fueling. |
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June 13th, 2011, 01:38 PM | #58 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
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Depth
Quote:
. When you fit the bungs for the O2 sensors you may want to space them out so that only the tip is protruding into the exhaust stream so as not to make too much of a restriction of the flow. |
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June 13th, 2011, 01:48 PM | #59 | ||
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Quote:
It seems to be the perfect place for it. Far enough down stream for temperature considerations and gas mixing from the two cylinders. Also nice that the sensor and it's wiring is protected from weather and doesn't get in the way at all. Quote:
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June 13th, 2011, 02:42 PM | #60 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
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Which system?
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June 13th, 2011, 03:12 PM | #61 | ||
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, You should note that your numbers refer to naturally aspirated engines. Forced induction engines require richer numbers, unless you run E85.
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June 13th, 2011, 03:24 PM | #62 | ||
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Quote:
....includes: 2008 European-Spec EX-250 throttle body and injectors 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 650 Throttle cables (pull and return) Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt EFI controller (ECU, fully user-programable) Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer fuel pump along with an LT-R450 fuel pressure regulator (42 PSI system pressure) Area P 2-into-1 full exhaust system with "long quiet" stainless steel muffler Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband Oxygen Sensor controller with Bosch 5-wire wideband sensor and standalone guage 1992 Honda Accord fuel filter General Motors Corporation Intake-Air and Coolant temperature sensors Motorola MPX4250A Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor Nissan Altima EGR solinoid, used for "Fast Idle" cold-start air circuit K&N R-0990 air Filter and... miles and miles of new wiring. Quote:
In my experience the only reason you would have more than one O2 sensor is if you have a split exhaust system, which is the nature of the EX-250's system. A split exhaust system is not a feature when you're installing a FI system, its a problem. That's why I removed the original 1-into-1 EX-250 exhaust and replaced it with the Area P 2-into-1 system. Some older V8 engines have a similar situation to the EX-250, they have completely separate exhaust systems for each bank of 4 cylinders. I don't know of any aftermarket/do-it-yourself or plug-and-play fuel injection systems that are set up to monitor more than one O2 sensor input at a time. So guys working on vehicles with these split systems will install (weld in) two O2 sensor bungs (one on each exhaust system) and then while they're tuning the system they keep switching the O2 sensor back and forth from one exhaust system to the other, using a "blank" bung plug in currently unused exhaust system. |
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June 13th, 2011, 03:56 PM | #63 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Full dual
Quote:
This new injection kit has two O2 sensors and computes the injection duration independantly for each cylinder so each cylinder is exactly at the desired mixture regardless of any other variables. |
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June 13th, 2011, 04:18 PM | #64 |
Wannabe Reborn
Name: Unregistered
Location: Cincy Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): Blue 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: 302
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So, basically, if cylinder 1(or 2) is a little rich(or lean), it will control that injector to correct the situation? Because the pictures I saw of the kit had 1 set of throttle bodies, both controlled by one cable. And unless someone is working on a drive-by-wire for the Ninja, then I guess I'm close to right, right?
On another note, Kawasaki needs to engineer steer-by-wire on the 250 Ninja. A first in motorcycles...
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June 13th, 2011, 05:27 PM | #65 | ||
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You almost sounds like you're gettin up in my grill....
Quote:
His use of the english language wasn't too precise, but I could tell from the context of his post that he was refering to the fact that narrow band O2 sensors only sense stoichiometric crossover, so that's the only data-point they can deliver within the entire spectrum of possible air/fuel ratios, while today's wide band O2 sensor controllers can deliver continuously sensed air/fuel ratio from 0 percent O2 all the way to 21 percent (atmospheric content). Quote:
Why on earth are you even bringing up forced induction or E85? Is this still a Ninja 250 website? I'm pretty sure the EX-250 isn't an E85 vehicle, and as for forced induction aren't we all aware of the train wreck of a thread currently in progress on this exact same sub-forum titled "turbo / turbocharger / turbocharging." Nuff said about that, right? Yes, I'm aware that different fuel types have different stoichiometric ratios. For example: E85 is 9.87:1, propane 15.7:1, methanol 6.47:1, LPG 15.5:1, and so on.... But how does that apply to a pump-gas burning EX-250? |
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June 13th, 2011, 05:35 PM | #66 | |
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Quote:
As I said, I've never seen any aftermarket ECU set up to deal with a split exhaust system, so my respect for the quality of this new kit just went up quite a bit. I guess I should go to their website and read the details. |
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June 13th, 2011, 06:48 PM | #67 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Scott
Location: Syracuse
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250, 2011 Honda CBR250R, 07 Ninja 650 Posts: 212
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Originally for a single
The kit was born out of one that they made for small singles with one of everything. They made a bracket and hardware to tie two of the original throttle bodies to one set of cables and a computer to handle twin inputs and outputs.
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June 21st, 2011, 05:27 PM | #68 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Lafayette, CA
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Ninja 250R EFI Fit information
Hi eveyone,
This is the first time I have replyed to a forum so bare with me. So I bought the same EFi kit around the same time as forbitel and I also spoke with Matt he responsed quickly, I like that. I have also been reading over both manuals efi and carb. I think I have found a solution for the fuel return line and the petcock but I have not received all the parts yet to try it out. I was able to score a set of throttle bodies from a 09 Ninja 250R in europe but stilll waiting for them to delivered. I bought harnesses to make the EFI kit plugs attach to the original throttle bodies PNP. As far as the return line correct me if I am wrong can't you use the bottom hole(number 3 in the picture bellow) on the left of the gas tank as the fuel return line the line goes all the way to the top and drops back into the tank. I have the CA model and I removed all the other stuff in the picture. Finally I ordered a race simple petcock with a on and off switch from pingel, it will be here on friday. The pingel adapater plate is a direct bolt on for the ninja 250R I measured it my self to make sure. I know it is a extra $100 but I think it is worth it to have everthing nice and neat. By the way the original throttle bodies cost me $230 with shipping and compared to the EFI kits throttle bodies it was worth the investment hope it all works to together. We'll see. The pingel parts numbers and prices are listed below. Hope all the information helps people if they are on the edge of buying the kit or not. I also found a perfect place for the fuel pump right under the tank. Hopefully this weekend I can get it running and take pictures to help everyone out. Inline single race valve 6210-AH $65.85 Valve 3/8 NPT A1602C $26.00 Adapter Plate 3/8 1.338/34mm |
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June 21st, 2011, 05:36 PM | #69 | |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
Location: St, Louis
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Quote:
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June 21st, 2011, 06:01 PM | #70 | |
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Quote:
The biggest hurdle to the turbo 250 is the FI system. Originally my plan was to wait for FI to come to the US. This will save me the cost of a new bike. OR having to make cu$tom parts. How much does a Microsquirt system cost? |
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June 21st, 2011, 07:19 PM | #71 | ||
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Quote:
I've got the original MicroSquirt in my project, but the makers (Bowling & Grippo) have just redesigned it to improve it and also to make it more durable (including making it weatherproof). The original version that I have is "weather resistant" but not "weather proof." This never mattered to me because I've got it mounted up in bike's tail section (inside the rear fairing section behind the seat, mounted just in front of the tail light housing) and that area never gets wet, even in huge rainstorms or when I wash the bike. But the main reason I mentioned the redesign of the MicroSquirt is that I don't know if you can even order one right now because they've stopped selling the old version and the new ones aren't available yet. Over at diyautotune.com (a really good source for do-it-yourself fuel injection stuff, nice guys, very helpful) they're showing August 2011 for soonest availability. Quote:
I had to buy the two throttle cables (pull and rerturn) from a 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 650R (which, of course, is fuel injected) because the European fuel injected EX-250's throttlebody has the throttle pull-and-return connection on the opposite side (left side of bike) than the carb version EX-250 (right side of the bike on my 2005 model). They installed easily into the existing (stock) handlebar throttle assembly on my 2005 EX-250 project bike. Because these new Ninja 650R cables had to cross over to the left-hand side of the bike to reach the pull-and-return on the FI throttle bodyI had to figure out a different routing for the cables to follow through the bike. I also removed the secondary butterfly assembly and permanently plugged the holes it left behind. The secondary butterfly is servo-motor controlled by the ECU in the OEM installation. There are no programming support or provisions in any of the aftermarket ECUs (the MicroSquirt included) for secondary butterfly actuation. Its okay to ditch the secondary butterfly assembly on our EX-250 because the throttle body isn't oversized for the engine. It has 28mm throttle body bores which is nearly identical to the carbs its replacing. The reason ECU-controlled secondary butterfly systems were introduced is because it allows motorcycle engineers to use oversized throttlebody bores which allow them to make huge horsepower at high RPMs on supersport bikes. For example: most supersport 600s use 38mm throttle body bores. That's a 38mm bore on each 150cc cylinder which is way too big. If it wasn't for the ECU-controlled secondary butterfly system none of those supersports would idle worth a crap and would have very marginal off-idle throttle response characteristics. By comparison you can see how much more reasonably paired our EX-250 is with its 125cc cylinders and 28mm throttle body bores. All of which may lead you to ask, "then why does the Euro FI EX-250 throttle body even have secondary butterflys at all?" The only reason I can give you, after doing a bit of research and talking to some motorcycle and automobile engineering types, is that they (Kawasaki) just don't build FI systems without secondary butterflys even if the application doesn't really need them. In this picture you can't see the secondary butterflys because you're looking at the primary butterflys. But you can see the black plastic box that contains the ECU controlled servo actuator for the secondary butterflys with its wiring pig-tail coming out the bottom. My throttlebody looks smaller than this picture because the servo box is gone and I even cut off the big metal flange (on the bottom of the throttlebody casting) that it mounts on. Getting rid of the flange made removing and replacing the throttlebody much easier. |
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June 21st, 2011, 07:42 PM | #72 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Lafayette, CA
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Hi Greg, Thanks for the info on the original Ninja 250R throttle bodies. Looks like I will have to buy some Ninja 650 cables. Also what did you use to permanently plug the holes for the secondary butterfly assembly? Because I will need to do that also..
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June 21st, 2011, 07:56 PM | #73 |
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I used one of the JB Weld products. Can't remember which.
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June 22nd, 2011, 03:32 PM | #74 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
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Thanks Greg, I bought the JB Weld STIK Putty. OK, one more question about the throttle bodies what did you do with the vacuum hose on the back of the throttle body. Did you cap it off? Or did you plug it under the tank to the vacuum side of the petcock valve if yours is setup that way? Mine is because it is a 2009 Ninja 250R. The ecotrons EFI kit says to remove the petcock valve that has vacuum and replace it with a simple non-vacuum petcoock or it will not start...
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June 22nd, 2011, 04:23 PM | #75 |
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I'm still using the bike's original petcock. I just took it apart and modified it so that it no longer needs engine vacuum to flow, so it acts as a simple on-off-reserve petcock. And I capped off the petcock's vacuum line.
On the throttlebody I added a fourth vacuum nipple, drilled into the same position as the other three that it originally came with. I'm using two of the vacuum nipples, one from each of the two cylinders, for vacuum input to the MAP sensor (Motorola MPX4250A). The EX-250 produces a very "lumpy" vacuum signal so I've got restrictors in these two lines and I'm using a small fuel filter (lawnmower type) plumbed in-line after the restrictors to smooth the signal into something that's useful to the MicroSquirt. The other two throttlebody vacuum nipples (one on each cylinder) are actually not acting as vacuum inputs. Instead they're hooked up to my cold-startup "fast idle" air circuit (it's an "automatic choke"). I'm using a Nissan Altima EGR solenoid ($5 at the you-pull junkyard) that opens based on the engine water temperature sensor. Below a certain engine water temperature the Microsquirt commands extra fuel through the injectors along with the extra air that is ported through the ex-Altima EGR soleniod from a connection plumbed into the K&N 0990 air filter to the two vacuum nipples (bypassing the butterflys). Once the engine's water temperature reaches a pre-determined value the solenoid closes and the fueling level returns to normal. I've even got an amber LED light on a small auxilliary indicator panel I built that comes on when this logic is engaged. It's also got other lights that indicate the following: Injectors firing, O2 sensor is at operating temp, warm up enrichment, acceleration enrichment and fuel pump operation. |
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June 22nd, 2011, 04:24 PM | #76 |
Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.
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on a new gen, just leave the petcock in the "pri" position. it will then flow gas w/o vacuum applied.
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June 23rd, 2011, 03:48 PM | #77 |
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OH MY GOD THATS SEXY
They do worldclass work there at Area P Nice Bung too btw
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June 23rd, 2011, 04:10 PM | #78 |
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June 23rd, 2011, 04:55 PM | #79 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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hahaha. I agree. and they use 304. I made a point to use the 304L in my project and I have to honestly say it's a major PITA to work with. Its some of the worst stuff to machine, but it's properties for the application are top notch. Area P uses it in their products and to me after working with it I have mad props for the company. They deal with its difficulties and sell some of the best systems on the market. Wish I could afford one of their systems, had to try and fab my own. Cheers kerry and congrats on a good solid product.
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July 3rd, 2011, 01:25 PM | #80 |
ninjette.org member
Name: telecom
Location: Toledo, OH
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Hi everyone, After 3 weeks, of having my bike completely naked and raised in the stand, today I finally put back all the fairings and give it a quick test ride. I drove it for about 5 miles and the first impression is AWESOME! I don't have dyno numbers but the bike feels with more torque, it takes off much smother from a stop light and revs quicker up to the top, Throttle feels more responsive too. I'm haven't yet tuned the fuel map, I using the maps supplied by the vendor but I will keep testing it a little more before I jump in to changing the maps. Sorry for the long time, but I only had few hours each Sunday to work on this project. Anyways, I will post the pics of the conversion process soon. Today, I will just enjoy riding my Fuel Injected Bike and take it to the Fireworks, HAPPY 4th OF JULY TO EVERYONE!
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