EFI install walkthrough

[lc86]

I might be going to thailand this summer, if I can find them, I'll bring back a few throttle bodies

I would, I'm sure there will be a high demand for them, especially since by the end of the summer I can have a longer term report on the results and work out any kinks I might have. I really need my license back

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The BOSCH OEM injectors are better injectors. 200 cc is perfect for the Ninjette. Don't confuse g/m with cc/m - different languages. The ecotrons injectors are 170 cc/min injectors. The 200 cc/min injectors are better - especially on the top end.

If you ever need a replacement for whatever reason, they are the same identical injectors that are used in the ZX-6R.

200cc/min flow rate is not better for Ninja 250r. It is a little too big. The reason Kawasaki uses this injector for 250r is, like other OEMs, to reuse same components as many as possible so the volume price could be lower.

The pros for a big injector is: you have a lot of room on the top end, but the cons is that you will be running rich at idle, and can even have rough idle, because you simply hit the smallest pulse-width of an injector. A typical auto injector minimum pulse-width is set at 1.5ms (milli-sencond). Anything below that, the linearity of the injector characteristics gets very poor, meaning, you don't know how much fuel is exactly injected at 1ms pulse-width. As Greg pointed out, a typical injector requires 1ms to open even, and then it almost immediately closes for that short period. No manufacturer's injector can do a good job at such a small pulse-width.

Greg also pointed out that he tuned his idle fuel pulse width to < 1.0ms to get a good AFR. And that is kind of hitting the injecotr lower limit already.

Ecotrons 170cc/min is a better size for Ninja 250r, it can provide enough fuel at the top end, and at same time, have a good pulse-width of 2ms at idle.

AFR at the top end is not always the richer, the better, as everybody knows. A relative rich mixture provides the best power, but the over-rich will just flood your engine.

170cc/min injectors have not hit the upper limit to provide rich mixture at top end for Ninja 250r.

Again, it is not "the bigger, the better."

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by DJK

the harness has bosch ev1 type connectors, you can order them on amazon, or they share the same as the zx6r so you can pick up an old injector harness off ebay for cheap

I made a mistake when I said the Kawasaki OEM injector used EV1 connectors. It turns out that the Kawasaki injectors are Bosch Licensed Nippon Denso. So the connectors are Nippon Denso Connectors and not EV1. As far as I can tell, the ecotrons injectors are the ones that use EV1 connectors.

Here is what a Nippon Denso Connector looks like:


The Kawasaki OEM UK Ninja 250R uses the Top slot version. (The top slot is on the bottom in the picture below).



If you don't like cutting into the wiring harness, you can get a pair of these EV1 to Denso adapters.

[mugenbb6]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

200cc/min flow rate is not better for Ninja 250r. It is a little too big. The reason Kawasaki uses this injector for 250r is, like other OEMs, to reuse same components as many as possible so the volume price could be lower.

The pros for a big injector is: you have a lot of room on the top end, but the cons is that you will be running rich at idle, and can even have rough idle, because you simply hit the smallest pulse-width of an injector. A typical auto injector minimum pulse-width is set at 1.5ms (milli-sencond). Anything below that, the linearity of the injector characteristics gets very poor, meaning, you don't know how much fuel is exactly injected at 1ms pulse-width. As Greg pointed out, a typical injector requires 1ms to open even, and then it almost immediately closes for that short period. No manufacturer's injector can do a good job at such a small pulse-width.

Greg also pointed out that he tuned his idle fuel pulse width to < 1.0ms to get a good AFR. And that is kind of hitting the injecotr lower limit already.

Ecotrons 170cc/min is a better size for Ninja 250r, it can provide enough fuel at the top end, and at same time, have a good pulse-width of 2ms at idle.

AFR at the top end is not always the richer, the better, as everybody knows. A relative rich mixture provides the best power, but the over-rich will just flood your engine.

170cc/min injectors have not hit the upper limit to provide rich mixture at top end for Ninja 250r.

Again, it is not "the bigger, the better."

Will the 170cc be sufficient at the top end when tuning for full aftermarket exhaust systems. If so, will it work with the oem tb?

[lc86]

I made a mistake when I said the Kawasaki OEM injector used EV1 connectors. It turns out that the Kawasaki injectors are Bosch Licensed Nippon Denso. So the connectors are Nippon Denso Connectors and not EV1. As far as I can tell, the ecotrons injectors are the ones that use EV1 connectors.

I think you are right, when I updated it I looked at the picture and thought the same thing, but I neglected to verify. I'll update my walkthrough again with a link to buy the correct parts.
http://connectorsfast.net/catalog/pr...2054cf70f7aaee

[greg737]

Yes, the gray colored top slot is correct for the OEM injectors on the FI EX-250.

And I do think that 170cc/min injectors are a better fit for a 125cc displacement cylinder than the OEM 200cc/min injectors. If you can find them in that size to fit the OEM throttlebody and fuel rail, that is.

That would be a bonus if you're using the Ecotrons ECU and firmware because you'd be tuning with the same basic parameter as everyone else (those using the Ecotrons throttlebody).

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

Yes, the gray colored top slot is correct for the OEM injectors on the FI EX-250.

And I do think that 170cc/min injectors are a better fit for a 125cc displacement cylinder than the OEM 200cc/min injectors. If you can find them in that size to fit the OEM throttlebody and fuel rail, that is.

That would be a bonus if you're using the Ecotrons ECU and firmware because you'd be tuning with the same basic parameter as everyone else (those using the Ecotrons throttlebody).

Last I heard, your bike had a wideband O2 sensor and real time display. Wouldn't that tell you if your 200cc OEM injectors were running rich at idle?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by mugenbb6

Will the 170cc be sufficient at the top end when tuning for full aftermarket exhaust systems. If so, will it work with the oem tb?

I believe it is enough for a full aftermarket exhaust. There is a lot of buffer at the top end with 170cc/min. I don't know all aftermarket exhausts. @Scattcatt installed an aftermarket exhaust. He is running rich at the top end as I understand.

But it can not be installed into OEM TB.
You may be able to find some injectors in the 160-180cc/min range and also can be fitted into OEM TB.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Last I heard, your bike had a wideband O2 sensor and real time display. Wouldn't that tell you if your 200cc OEM injectors were running rich at idle?

Being able to monitor the situation wasn't the issue, tunability at idle was.

Remember that it isn't whether the 200cc/min injectors can be tuned to idle with a good fuel/air ratio on the EX-250's 125cc cylinders, because we've proven that they can. The issue is that the 200cc/min injectors are right at the edge of tunability (if that is a word) in the idle range.

Working with the 200cc/min injectors I ended up with a 1.7ms idle pulsewidth. And you have to take into account the fact that injector-opening-time accounts for 0.9ms of that 1.7ms pulsewidth.

So here's the crux of the issue: As you get down to a shorter and shorter idle pulsewidth you can see that any 0.1ms change becomes a larger and larger percentage change, which can result in you chasing your tail trying to tune the bike.

a slightly smaller injector alleviates this condition.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

Being able to monitor the situation wasn't the issue, tunability at idle was.

Remember that it isn't whether the 200cc/min injectors can be tuned to idle with a good fuel/air ratio on the EX-250's 125cc cylinders, because we've proven that they can. The issue is that the 200cc/min injectors are right at the edge of tunability (if that is a word) in the idle range.

Working with the 200cc/min injectors I ended up with a 1.7ms idle pulsewidth. And you have to take into account the fact that injector-opening-time accounts for 0.9ms of that 1.7ms pulsewidth.

So here's the crux of the issue: As you get down to a shorter and shorter idle pulsewidth you can see that any 0.1ms change becomes a larger and larger percentage change, which can result in you chasing your tail trying to tune the bike.

a slightly smaller injector alleviates this condition.

I suppose so. I know that some of the bigger bikes use two injectors per cylinder. That way they can have a small volume idle squirt from a single injector, or use both injectors at high speed. And other vehicles lower the rail pressure at idle.

But it would seem that, based on your comment, that the ECU resolution is only 0.1ms. And this results in tail chasing. But if the ECU had 0.01 ms resolution, then this would be less of an issue.

Anyhow, I don't know about anybody else, but my bike doesn't spend a whole lot of time idling. So I'm probably good with the OEM injectors.

[greg737]

But if the ECU had 0.01 ms resolution, then this would be less of an issue.

I guess that's a question for Matt. Does the Ecotrons firmware allow for .01ms changes to pulsewidth resolution or is it limited to .1ms increments?

The firmware load in the Microsquirt ECU that I use is limited to .1ms increments.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by greg737

I guess that's a question for Matt. Does the Ecotrons firmware allow for .01ms changes to pulsewidth resolution or is it limited to .1ms increments?

The firmware load in the Microsquirt ECU that I use is limited to .1ms increments.

Ecotrons ECU uses 0.001ms as the pulsewidth resolution, that is one micro-second (1/1000000 second).
0.1ms resolution is kind of coasre for engine controls. All modern car ECUs control fuel pulse at micro-second level.

It is not the ECU pulsewidth resolution that is limiting the minimum pulse width of the injector, but the injector itself. The injector is simply NOT fast enough to open / close in 0.1ms or 0.01ms. A typical auto injector takes 0.8ms to open and 0.5ms second to close.

With a big inejctor, your idle pusle width is too small, like 1ms. As Greg said, 0.1ms difference at 1ms usable pulse width is already 10% error. It is a big percentage for the idle control. That is the real problem to use a big injector for a small cylinder.

[mugenbb6]

Does that mean the stock efi idles rich with the 200?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by mugenbb6

Does that mean the stock efi idles rich with the 200?

Not necessarily. OEM EFI can pre-set the throttle openning (leakage air) bigger than needed to provide more air, then retard the ignition angle to maintain the target idle speed. The drawback is the sacrifice of the fuel economy at idle.

[THE BIG SITT]

This page would be great for anyone just needing to remove the fairing, tank, ect. Bravo!

[greg737]

Originally Posted by mugenbb6

Does that mean the stock efi idles rich with the 200?

No, it doesn't mean that. The 200cc/min injectors work fine in the EX-250 engine.

Remember that this conversation thread got started when I mentioned that the 170cc/min injector is a better match for the EX-250's 125cc cylinders. Very tunable at idle with plenty of capacity for the bike's top end needs.

Nothing more that that. Just a better match for the bike's range of fuel needs.

[lc86]

Originally Posted by THE BIG SITT

This page would be great for anyone just needing to remove the fairing, tank, ect. Bravo!

Thanks. I was actually thinking of that when I wrote it, but there are already other walkthroughs out there. I just wanted to make an all inclusive walkthrough to make it easier and to avoid confusion.

[lc86]

For those of you interested in installing a pushbutton type switch, I installed mine and I updated my walkthrough to show pics. Its at the end of my 2nd post. I ended up using the plastic piece on the left side because it looked like it would work the best for protection against the weather, and I spliced the LED to the trouble light, so if it is glowing the trouble light is on. I was planning on installing another light for the maintenance light, but I realized this would work perfectly. I can also see installing this up by the instrument cluster, but I like how this looks.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lc86

For those of you interested in installing a pushbutton type switch, I installed mine and I updated my walkthrough to show pics.

I like it! Looks like a natural location for a newgen.

[setasai]

Loving it! Thanks for testing the switch out for us.

You still have the airbox installed. I installed pod filters and am having trouble with stalling. I wonder if it's an autotuning thing. I'll give it some time and see if it fixes itself.

Your setup looks fantastic!

[lc86]

I like it! Looks like a natural location for a newgen.

I was debating on whether or not to place it there or by the instrument cluster, but I am happy with my decision for newgens. As for the pregens I would have to actually see one up close to find a good spot for one.

Loving it! Thanks for testing the switch out for us.

You still have the airbox installed. I installed pod filters and am having trouble with stalling. I wonder if it's an autotuning thing. I'll give it some time and see if it fixes itself.

Your setup looks fantastic!

Don't mention it, I figured someone might as well test it out and see how well it works. Now all I have left is to rebuild the fuel line if my new line ever arrives in the mail. I'm also waiting for an integrated taillight which should make it a little nicer. I was thinking of upgrading to the airpods so that I can take the stock airbox out back and pummel it with a baseball bat. That was by far the biggest PITA when installing the kit :-) I also might upgrade the exhaust at some time, but I will probably wait until I can ride again...3 more weeks.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by lc86

I was thinking of upgrading to the airpods so that I can take the stock airbox out back and pummel it with a baseball bat. That was by far the biggest PITA when installing the kit :-) I also might upgrade the exhaust at some time, but I will probably wait until I can ride again...3 more weeks.

I know! At first I was going to use the airbox but when I had a nightmare trying to get the carbs out and then an even bigger nightmare with the wiring and the new throttlebody so I decided to screw it and yank the thing out.

It's crazy embedded in there with nowhere to shift back or forward.

[lc86]

Originally Posted by setasai

I know! At first I was going to use the airbox but when I had a nightmare trying to get the carbs out and then an even bigger nightmare with the wiring and the new throttlebody so I decided to screw it and yank the thing out.

It's crazy embedded in there with nowhere to shift back or forward.

That's actually the reason I even made the walkthrough. I had installed the kit a couple weeks earlier with the ecotrons TB and I didn't realize I had to disassemble the whole damn bike to be able to just move the airbox, so when I installed the OEM TB I made a walkthrough to hopefully save other people the same troubles I had and save them time.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by lc86

so when I installed the OEM TB I made a walkthrough to hopefully save other people the same troubles I had and save them time.

I probably would have just went with "yank that airbox out" and be done with it. That'll probably save the most time.

Still, awesome walthrough. Much appreciated. Now if only I had one of those super rare OEM throttlebodies. Haha, us EFI people are already rare, and here we have 2 categories... the OEM vs the Aftermarket with like under 10 people in each category. I'm sure there are more but they are definitely not part of this forum.

[lc86]

Originally Posted by setasai

I probably would have just went with "yank that airbox out" and be done with it. That'll probably save the most time.

Still, awesome walthrough. Much appreciated. Now if only I had one of those super rare OEM throttlebodies. Haha, us EFI people are already rare, and here we have 2 categories... the OEM vs the Aftermarket with like under 10 people in each category. I'm sure there are more but they are definitely not part of this forum.

Maybe I'll update the walkthrough with how to easily remove your airbox with a sawzall...I think the EFI project is awesome though. I also have a lot of respect for those of you trying to make the kits TB work, I was going to try but it started bad (the throttle mount broke off when I tried to use it) and only got worse (it had very bad throttle response, the bike would barely move). I probably could have made it work, but I found an OEM TB so I decided to try that. The OEM TB just worked from the start, so I recommend it for those that can get one. At the very least, I am a lot more intimate with my bike now and she is the only one like her in town.

[lc86]

I finally got my license (well, restricted) back, so I was able to test out the bike finally. For my first ride I took it down a straight section of highway just to get a feel for it, then I rode it back through the city for some stop/go action, and finally returned on the freeway. Overall impression, I am happy with it. It started right up, idles nice and low, never stalled out (Note: I do have the fuel decel cutoff changed to 3000 across the board), and responds nicely. The biggest difference, which in my opinion is huge, is that the throttle is smooth, from idle to WOT. Power wise, I would say it feels more powerful at highway speeds, I can't say I notice any more power at city speeds, but I have also noticed that since the throttle response is so much nicer I actually was riding at much lower RPMs than I was using the carbs. Its a night and day difference when it comes to handling, I haven't actually taken it out in a month and I rode better than I ever had before. I will post updates every so often to address issues such as long term reliability and gas mileage.

Also, while bored waiting to get my driving privileges back, I installed these handles...

...They were $35 shipped and only took about 2 weeks to get here. They are amazing, I used to never use my clutch, now that I have the awesome throttle response and these set up to how I like them I am using it for every shift. The shifts have been so buttery smooth that most the time I honestly couldn't tell if I even shifted. In the beginning of my ride I kept looking at the RPM to make sure I even did anything.

[n4mwd]

Could you video some 0-60 runs and post the results?

[lc86]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Could you video some 0-60 runs and post the results?

Thats actually a great idea, I don't have a camera though. I might see about getting one and finding a good spot to do it thats between here and work, having a restricted license still greatly limits what I can do, but I have no problem taking the scenic route to work It probably wont be until after I find out how much its going to cost me to fully carbon fiberize my ride, but maybe sometime relatively soon, I want the ECU to have a chance to self adjust anyways.

[gt_turbo]

awesome write up! if i ever feel like the need to convert to efi, i will definitely use this.

[lc86]

So today was the first time I was able to take it out in colder temps. It was 42 degrees out (which always sucked with carbs) and I was able to start it up and drive without any problems. It didn't stall out (idles at ~1200), it ran like a champ, and I am definitely happy with the results (this was one of 2 main reasons I even performed the conversion, the carbs are just terrible in cold weather.) After leaving it out for a couple hours in the cold (while in class, as opposed to it being in the garage) it still started up and I was able to instantly ride without problems.

[DJK]

okay, so I'm officially going to Bangkok this summer at the end of June. does anybody know of any junkyards/shops that would have the throttle body? All I have found so far is http://www.bkkriders.com/shops/index.html which I'll hit up all the part shops on there and even kawasaki headquarters. I'll also hit up redbaronbkk.com even though they emailed me saying they don't carry 250r parts. if anybody else can help out and knows of places to look, I'll bring back as many as I can find.

[Somchai]

D, you can go to Kwaki and try to get them there. The Orderno. is 16163-0113 and the price was last summer 10,674 THB, that's app. 340 USD.
I've been asking for Matt, but that price was understandable to high for him, because so he couldn't keep his low price for the kit.
The prob is that the dealer is asked by the headquarter what for he needs the TB. After a long discussion my dealer told me he would sell 10 sets to me but not all at one time. So it's not that easy to get them here.
After Matt didn't want them I told my dealer that we have to stop this.

PS: One more thing, here is one in Germany at tha Bay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kawasaki-EX-2...item589381345c

If he bought them all the time, then Matt should already got some in Germany after I told him the link.
You can look in Germany 'ebay.de' and search for: ninja 250* einspr* (it's called Einspritzanlage). Good luck.

[DJK]

Originally Posted by Somchai

D, you can go to Kwaki and try to get them there. The Orderno. is 16163-0113 and the price was last summer 10,674 THB, that's app. 340 USD.
I've been asking for Matt, but that price was understandable to high for him, because so he couldn't keep his low price for the kit.
The prob is that the dealer is asked by the headquarter what for he needs the TB. After a long discussion my dealer told me he would sell 10 sets to me but not all at one time. So it's not that easy to get them here.
After Matt didn't want them I told my dealer that we have to stop this.

PS: One more thing, here is one in Germany at tha Bay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kawasaki-EX-2...item589381345c

If he bought them all the time, then Matt should already got some in Germany after I told him the link.
You can look in Germany 'ebay.de' and search for: ninja 250* einspr* (it's called Einspritzanlage). Good luck.

340 is way to high, I'm looking for less than half that - are there any breakers around bkk that would have any 250's?

[n4mwd]

You might want to wait a little bit. Matt says he'll have a new TB available the first week in May. I'm going to give him a chance to make good on this before I buy an OEM one.

[Somchai]

Sorry, I don't know breakers around BKK since I live in CNX. Here in the city all broken ninjettes go to kwaki and they don't sell them. I've been already looking to buy all the TB's, but no chance until now.