Ecotrons Install Thread

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

You seem to be a visual learner, so here ya go....

THE WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB


snip
Using a carpenter's saw to slice a pizza.
...
snip
Using worm clamps on an EFI system.

He he. I know you had problems with yours, but he did say that they were higher quality ones and that he hasn't had any problems.

[choneofakind]

You do realize the connections you have highlighted are not pressurized lines right? They don't need uber-clamping.
You also realize that all my connections have been firmly attached for 2000 miles without any trouble at all right?

Answer me this: what does an EFI clamp do that a good worm clamp (not the kit ones, those are garbage) cannot do? You don't want to put a buttload of clamping force on the nipples of the pump anyway, because those are plastic and could be broken by applying uber-clamping.

CZroe: yepp. The ones I have from the hardware store have a much thicker band and are a different finish compared to the kit ones. They are also much heavier. The best comparison I can think of is tin foil compared to SS sheet. The ones from the hardware store are much better and have given me no issues.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt and I figured out what the problem was with my EFI bike being hard to start.

Nice! So it was a battery issue. I'll keep that in mind if I ever start having troubles like yours. I've noticed the starting issue with a dead battery before, also the kicking you off procal, but you had that funny starting issue, which is why I didn't mention it. I just assumed it was the kit, not the battery.

The nice thing is procal logs battery voltage so we can keep a record of our battery health by logging once in a while.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You do realize the connections you have highlighted are not pressurized lines right? They don't need uber-clamping.
You also realize that all my connections have been firmly attached for 2000 miles without any trouble at all right?

Answer me this: what does an EFI clamp do that a good worm clamp (not the kit ones, those are garbage) cannot do? You don't want to put a buttload of clamping force on the nipples of the pump anyway, because those are plastic and could be broken by appling uber-clamping.

Actually, I can't answer why the blue tubing works at all on your low pressure side of the fuel pump. Those ports are 6mm and too small for the blue 1/4" tubing. They might work if the pump had barbs, but it doesn't.

BTW, there isn't anything wrong with the clear tubing as long as it doesn't get stiff or bulge. The color change is weird, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it. It may be from the alcohol in the gas.

As to why an EFI clamp is superior, take a look at a cross section of both. I don't have pictures right now. The EFI clamp applies pressure to ALL parts of the tube equally. The worm clamp has a spot under the worm mechanism that doesn't get as much pressure.

Its easier to visualize by thinking about a really big worm clamp being tightened around a pencil. The band takes on a "D" shape with the flat part being made by the worm mechanism. So the parts in the corners don't get as much pressure and can leak.

So worm clamps are OK for larger hoses where the mechanism takes up a very small percentage of the circumference. They aren't good for smaller fuel lines. In your case, you just got lucky. You should change them the next time you are in there.

[EMSRacer07]

worm clamps have been working for me since the group buy

[lgk]

the efi clamps have a lot of advantages over normal hose clamps.
-clamp a lot more evenly
-have rounded edges to prevent marring the hose over time
-more resistant to loosening over time
-stronger clamping force
-wider clamping area seals better against barbs

if you use any efi rated hose you should use the efi clamps on that hose, imo.

[choneofakind]

^^thanks D. That explanation made sense to me. I can see how the worms would make a more oval shape rather than a circle when tightened further. I will look into some EFI clamps on all my connections when I replace my fuel lines to match the black fuel line I have on a few places already.

What diameter EFI clamp do I need? 5/16", 3/8", or 1/4"

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

What diameter EFI clamp do I need? 5/16", 3/8", or 1/4"

I've seen them designated by the ID and the OD. But in terms of ID, on my install, there is only one small 1" section of 5/16" hose between the fuel rail and the regulator. The rest are 1/4" EFI clamps with the exception of the clear stuff and that uses spring clamps. The clear low pressure tubing works fine with spring clamps on everything that has barbs.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by lolibater

I'm confused. New gen + 2" for both, or new gen + 2" for the accel, but new gen + 2" - 1cm for decel?

anyone?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

anyone?

newgen plus 2" in sheath length.
With decel cable tail 1 cm shorter.

BTW, how is your fuel pump attached to your throttle body?

[lolibater]

Thanks.

I'll have to take a picture, it's hard to explain in words lol.

[lolibater]

I mounted the fuel pump directly onto the engine. Now before someone goes off on me, I know this is not the "optimal" location. I was getting MASSIVE heat soak from the engine to the fuel pump, causing cavitation, hard starts, and sometime no starting at all. I fixed this by wrapping the fuel pump in started heat reflective wrap. Ever since installing that, I have not had a single issue with cavitation. The reason I mounted it there is because I wanted to keep the fuel hoses short (hadn't seen D's modular setup previous to that), and the fuel pump at the proper angle for the bubble port.





This picture shows the left side of the bike, where the fuel filter and FPR are. You can also see my lack of decel cable here, as well as my awesomeneverhaveeverleakedbefore Motion Pro dual disconnects





I bought 25' of some really nice fuel line, and plan to retube/rewire this entire thing in the summer. I'm really just nervous to do it. Everything is working great, and it seems like any time fiddle with anything that I end up breaking something.....

[n4mwd]

I don't think you'll need 25'.

Its kind of hard to tell in the picture, but it looks like its bolted to the cam chain tensioner. Is that correct? I had wrongly assumed that you were bolting it to the throttle body.

I can't tell in the photo, but is the pump at a nice angle so that the outlet is lower than the inlet? If the pump is flat, then when you put the bike on the side stand the bubbles will go the wrong way and could cavitate. If your pump had the outlet on the left side of the bike, putting it on the side stand would cause the bubbles to rise back to the tank.

[lolibater]

O h I know I won't need 25 ft. It was just on sale lol.

I bolted it to what I thought was a coolant pipe, but it very well may be the cam chain tensioner. The only issue I saw from running it there was heat soak.

Yep, it's angled up. Kind of hard to see from the picture. Definitely not the optimal location; as you said, on very very steep hills (lots around here) some times I have to roll it down to flat before it starts. I need to think about where to put this thing to prevent that.

[choneofakind]

Interesting. I think I would have drilled into the air box and mounted it back some before mounting it to the engine. Hey, as long as it works

[lolibater]

If I hadn't found that heat reflect wrap, I probably would have mounted it to the battery box.

I no haz airbox.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lolibater

I no haz airbox.

u uzed to haz air box.

I'm still debating going back to the air box...

[lolibater]

y u no stay podz

[choneofakind]

Noisy. Also not sold on the performance. I think clean air is more important with fuel injection than the volume of air. It's still a toss up in my head, and I really need more concrete information (not just speculation) before I decide to go back to the air box. Most likely it will stay with the pod filter.

[lolibater]

Yeah I love me some noise

Could care less about the performance. I just want an obnoxious vehicle that everyone will hate mission accomplished lol.

[n4mwd]

Should'ave bought a Harley.

[lolibater]

lol. i forgot to tell you guys that some guy wanted me to ride his 900 lbs harley down a hill to a gas station for him. It was out of gas. I'm like dude your bike weighs over 3x what mine does. No. lol.

900 lb bike, 2g gas tank. Seems kinda stupid to me. So many speakers and subs on it that the battery went from full to dead in 15 min. Shoulda bought a car is more like it.

[choneofakind]

hahaha #harleyfail. <-- that's so starting. I just started it.

Yeah I'm going to try lengthening the runners if @Jiggles would get his butt in gear and sell me his damn newgen air box runners!!

If I don't like the result, I'm going to try modding the airbox to work around the pod filter to deliver still smooth air. I'm really hoping the runners work because that's less work.

[choneofakind]

Okay. Here's files I've got in my blog:

• decel fuel cutoff at 3000 rpm
• basic ignition timing at 41.25 degrees
• Rich map - 12.9 AFR, trimmed a bit for fuel economy while not under heavy load.
• Warm-up factor 2 80% of ecotrons values
• Warm-up factor 2 85% of ecotrons values
• Warm-up factor 2 90% of ecotrons values
• Warm-up factor 2 95% of ecotrons values
• Warm-up factor 2 105% of ecotrons values
• Warm-up factor 2 110% of ecotrons values

All the different 'Warm-up factor 2' maps are so you can try and get the warm-up idle speed up a little without the bike dying. My thoughts here are that the idle speed goes up as the warm-up enrichment tapers off, so as long as we don't reduce that so much that the bike dies, it should be possible to reduce it a little to raise the warm-up idle speed a little.

If you find that one of the warm-up tables is not enough, but the next leaner/richer one I posted is too much, just let me know and I'll make a table that's in the middle of them for you.

[rojoracing53]

@lolibater did you ever try changing the value we disgust into the upper ranges? I was wondering if it helped or not.

[choneofakind]

@rojoracing53, what were you thinking?

Have you gotten a chance to ride Rick's bike with my rich map/ignition map? I'm all ears to feedback.

[lolibater]

Nobody has ridden my bike but me lol.

He was suggesting that I move the fuel decel cutoff to 15k, therefore making it impossible to activate. I literally have not ridden the bike since you came over that day, but I'll make sure to do that soon.

[choneofakind]

Oh, that's what Scattcat did. He raised it to 15,300 rpm. I think it was Matt's suggestion for how to get rid of the occasional backfiring, but now we have that update to fix the popping...

Anyhow, that sounds like a reasonable test. It should work.

[lolibater]

I'll give it a try next time I ride / if the hunting idle annoys me enough. It's been raining on and off here for the past 2 days, so I haven't really been doing much on the bike.

[rojoracing53]

Hey if you need someone to point out everything that's wrong with a bike and I mean EVERYTHING I'm more then happy to ride it like I stole it. Just ask @Jiggles

Part of the reason my bike are constantly being modded or tweaked is because I'm quite sensitive to bike characteristics. We had to make a special jig for the race bikes so the team could adjust the clipons to be exactly the same because I could feel it if it was off a degree.

[choneofakind]

Please come ride my bike!!! I know my bars are a touch off and it's been bugging me forever!!! I haven't been able to get them right for 2 seasons

[lolibater]

Yay post #1000

I'd rather just think my bike works fine as it is. If I get someone, or myself, to find out even the most minor of details wrong, I'll be forced to take action lol.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Yay post #1000

Congrats on your 1000th post.

[lolibater]

Thanks!

It should be 70*+ this upcoming week, so I'll be getting back on the bike for sure. Probably will adjust the fuel decel sometime today or tomorrow, and then maybe take it out up hwy 1

[n4mwd]

I didn't adjust mine. When I put the newgen cables on there, it created enough friction that it wont snap back fast enough to stall.

[lolibater]

Yeah nobody really needs to adjust it other than me it seems. Typical.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Yeah nobody really needs to adjust it other than me it seems. Typical.

False. I had to adjust my decel fuel cut-off because mine had a habit of dying also.

Don't worry, you're not the only one here

[lolibater]

I'm going to try riding it later with the stock values (currently on there), and see if it gets any better.

[n4mwd]

It may be that the stock values don't work that good with pods. I have the airbox, OEM mufflers and the mappings have been very good. The performance is quite awesome even in eco mode. The only thing is that eco mode seems to top out at around 90 MPH.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

It may be that the stock values don't work that good with pods. I have the airbox, OEM mufflers and the mappings have been very good. The performance is quite awesome even in eco mode. The only thing is that eco mode seems to top out at around 90 MPH.

Glad it seems to be working out for you

That's why I'm considering going to the air box. The air box takes advantage of intake resonance and always gets cool air. Pods don't. The ecotrons rich map goes balls rich to about 12.3 AFR during heavy load and high rpm's. It felt soggy to me, and that was fixed with setting it to 12.9 AFR instead of 12.3. I just want more riding time to get this tuned But it does get much better after some time learning with the pods. The rich map values apply to all setups, based on what the ECU deems to be "1" for your system. The rich maps should feel the same, but the eco maps will have to learn to work for each individual bike.

I don't recommend going too crazy with the top speed testing on eco mode. Ever notice that your exhaust runs hot and smells lean in eco mode? That's bad for the valves.

What's your experience with the top end in rich mode? Have you tried advancing the ignition timing from 7000 rpm up?