Official 2013 Ninja 300 (and 250) Thread

[wayanlam]

eric, please find out if its possible to easily modify our new 2013 250cc model into the 300 that you guys will have over there

if i ever get this new bike id love to lob the slightly bigger JE pistons, with this longer stroke, to get like 315cc, and a higher compression ratio. weee....

ok, no more mods for my old 250, and save up for a new 250, ha ha

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

One other thing is that I haven't seen anything about the MPG or Top Speed of the Ninja 300 yet. There have been references that the 300 does better than the newgen in terms of MPG, but I haven't found anything to confirm that yet.

I'm actually very curious about the MPG as well.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Actually the point I was trying to make is that the Ninja 300 is only rated just slightly above the 1988 Pregen. This is Kawasaki's own numbers.

Ah - so when you posted this...

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Just barely.

Pregen: 37.4 HP
Newgen: 31.5 HP
300: 38.9 HP

Seems like the 300 is just giving back what was previously taken away.

... you really meant 1988 pregen, the bike from 25 years ago, but you forgot to put what you meant.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

It would seem that we should be getting a lot more than 2 HP for the extra 50 cc's.

Under the same emissions constraints, same reliabililty constraints, and same cost constraints, the bike is going from 33 ps to 39 ps. Which is exactly what one would expect going from 249 cc to 296 cc.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by wayanlam

this is lame, i was hopiong that we would also get the 300 here

instead they give us a castrated 250cc version of your 300!

although i wonder if it is possible to mod the new 250 into a 300 by changing a couple parts with the US/Australian models, to get the longer stroke, since the bore is the same size!

sorta really want this new model bike... lol

It looks like they either gave countries the 250 or the 300, but not both. That doesn't seem right. Its not like they have to do anything special to ship to one country vs another. Personally I'd like to see the new 250 over here in the US. But instead, they EOL'ed the 250 over here and made 250 fans SOL.

As far as converting one to the other, it might be as simple as changing out the crank, but we wont know anything for sure until we get the parts diagrams. Most likely, you'll need new heads and fuel injection system. The 250 has 28mm throttle body and the 300 is 32mm.

[Racer x]

I read in the literature they lowered compression so the bike could run on regular gas. That made me drool. Going from 10.6 to 12 or 13 to 1 will make a big difference. As for boring . The cylinders are all aluminum. That is good. The hope is to add a steel sleeve and 6 mmm larger pistons. Some one has to wreck one first. So I am at least two years away from that.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

It would seem that we should be getting a lot more than 2 HP for the extra 50 cc's.

Remember that the high max hp numbers quoted on the '88 model are at the top end of the rpm range. That means they sacrificed usable midrange for top end power.

The 08+ model has more mid-range grunt than the 88-07 model. It's noticeable when you ride them back to back.

The '13 model has a lower red line and larger displacement, so while it will likely only make about 32 rwhp at peak, it will have more midrange grunt. This is the same argument for the 636, albeit a little different on the proportions (50 vs 250 compared to 36 vs 600). More displacement means that they can make the bike a liiiiiittle less high strung, get a little better top end, and a little better mid range. That sounds like an improvement to me. Don't forget that it has better suspension and tire options than any pregen had, so it's going to be faster around a road course, which is where these bikes really shine.

[choneofakind]

Look at the past history of the 636. It was here for like 4 years from '03-'06 model years. Then they brought the 600 back.

Just because they brought the 300 here, it doesn't mean the 250 is gone for good.
@wayanlam, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do a 300 conversion based on your current level of bike modding. The parts are all being produced. Someone is going to figure it out at some point.

[Heed]

Link to original page on YouTube.

hnnnnnnnnnnngh

[Boom King]

There's a french video of the Ninja 300 where the rider gets it to about 173 KM/h passing cars around a sweep. It looked like the 300 still had quite a bit of steam left at that point. I have no doubt on a straight, the 300 could be pushed up to about 185 KM/h.

Originally Posted by Heed

only solid colors are white and black? :/ could've swore there was a red unless i'm mistaking it for the '13 250r

There is a red 300... in Canada. We miss out on the white though

The ABS version here is available in either solid ebony or what's called metallic moondust grey...

[wayanlam]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

As far as converting one to the other, it might be as simple as changing out the crank, but we wont know anything for sure until we get the parts diagrams. Most likely, you'll need new heads and fuel injection system. The 250 has 28mm throttle body and the 300 is 32mm.

i was discussing this with my mechanic today, we compared the specs, the 300cc has the same bore as the old 250, but increased stroke, while the new 250s here (aka US 300) has the same bore and stroke as the old 250s... i am hoping that the overall engine is the same between the new 250 and 300cc, meaning that if we were to change the crank and the piston rods, it might be all thats needed to bring it back to its full 300cc spec.

Sportisi in jakarta will be playing around with the new 250 for sure, and im hoping that they (or someone else) can find out if that is possible.

as to why they dont do the 300cc model here is due to the import licence. i think at the moment the import tax on bikes below 250cc is much lower than bikes that are over 250cc. which is why the ninja 650 costs almost USD13.000 and the ninja 600 is a hefty 24 grand here basically double the US price, while the ninja 250s, get away with a more affirdable price tag, albeit still more expensive than in america, lol roughly $5600 i think (depends on the current exchange too~).

but yeah, if this is possible, i would definitely have this bike, and those mods on my TO DO List (right after finishing the house that im building with my girl... sigh... no money

W.

ps. but yeah, its a bummer that the throttle body of the 250 is smaller than the 300... yet another part to replace >.<

[Bristecom]

I so wish they would have done this for the colors:

Non-ABS: ($4800)









ABS Special Edition: ($5500)







Who wouldn't be happy with this?

[Boom King]

Don't really like the last red scheme although I thought that was only for the new 250R. The grey moondust metallic wouldn't be my preference but I would have to see it in person before I deemed if it was tolerable or not. Would've also liked to see a nice blue as a solid colour choice as well.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Don't really like the last red scheme although I thought that was only for the new 250R. The grey moondust metallic wouldn't be my preference but I would have to see it in person before I deemed if it was tolerable or not. Would've also liked to see a nice blue as a solid colour choice as well.

I actually like the SE red/white probably most of all. I mean, I'd be just as happy with solid red in ABS but if Kawi has to milk me another $200 for stickers, I'd be OK with that red/white one. But you're right, they only show that one being offered for the 250 but they are the exact same shapes either way so I don't see why not. And yeah, I'm not sure about the black/grey but I'd still prefer any of those colors over the SE green! Even Canada is getting 2 ABS color options so I don't see why they can't add another one for the US.

[Boom King]

Here's the french review of the Ninja 300. Google translate is your friend.

Some highlights of the review:

- Taking it out on the Autobahn, their test rider got up to indicated 177 km/h. GPS verified at 174 km/h. A lighter rider should be able to reach 185 km/h by their assumption

- Little noticeable engine vibration at 150 km/h

- Around town, torque is noticeable from 4000 rpm

- Softer clutch action than the 2012 250R

- Handling is still agile; tested around the country forest roads of Germany; remained confident over bumps

- They would have like a more progressive braking feel and of course, they did not like the stock IRC tires

[Bristecom]

(I accidently posted this in the wrong thread so I'm reposting it here)

I so wish they would have done this for the colors:

Non-ABS: ($4800)









ABS Special Edition: ($5500)







Who wouldn't be happy with this?

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Boom King

There is a red 300... in Canada. We miss out on the white though

The ABS version here is available in either solid ebony or what's called metallic moondust grey...

Hey bud, maybe we can trade each other one day. I buy a white one, you buy an ebony ABS and I give you $500 on top of that, and we trade.

I won't be getting one until next spring or summer though.

BTW, thanks for the translation on that video.

[thurt88]

Well, just put a deposit down to get a white one on the first order. It was 5100.00 otd non abs.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

(I accidently posted this in the wrong thread so I'm reposting it here)

I so wish they would have done this for the colors:

Non-ABS: ($4800)

ABS Special Edition: ($5500)

Who wouldn't be happy with this?

Seriously? No blue one? Have they gone off the deep end?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Remember that the high max hp numbers quoted on the '88 model are at the top end of the rpm range. That means they sacrificed usable midrange for top end power.

The 08+ model has more mid-range grunt than the 88-07 model. It's noticeable when you ride them back to back.

The '13 model has a lower red line and larger displacement, so while it will likely only make about 32 rwhp at peak, it will have more midrange grunt. This is the same argument for the 636, albeit a little different on the proportions (50 vs 250 compared to 36 vs 600). More displacement means that they can make the bike a liiiiiittle less high strung, get a little better top end, and a little better mid range. That sounds like an improvement to me. Don't forget that it has better suspension and tire options than any pregen had, so it's going to be faster around a road course, which is where these bikes really shine.

I would really like to see a dyno on the 300. With a top speed of only 110 mph, its obvious they have made some serious sacrifices to get that low end torque. But I really don't buy the "low end torque is better" argument. after all, that is the same argument people used to compare the CBR 250 to the Newgen. Here is low end torque in action:

Link to original page on YouTube.

The CBR250 bolts across the starting line, gets about 100 feet down the track, and then the newgen blasts past him and never looks back. Both bikes are exactly the same CC's. Typical cruisers usually have even more low end torque. My pregen has most of its power in the higher end, but that's OK, I have a gearbox.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Hey bud, maybe we can trade each other one day. I buy a white one, you buy an ebony ABS and I give you $500 on top of that, and we trade.

Oh man, don't tempt me haha.

I love the 300 so far but we're still awaiting word on Canadian MSRP. Unfortunately, even though our dollar does slightly better against the Yen than the USD, we get seriously shafted up here on prices. I'm guessing it's going to be around $5499 for the non ABS 300. I could probably get a used 2011 400R for about the same or less or a used 2009 650R for not too much more than that.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Oh man, don't tempt me haha.

I love the 300 so far but we're still awaiting word on Canadian MSRP. Unfortunately, even though our dollar does slightly better against the Yen than the USD, we get seriously shafted up here on prices. I'm guessing it's going to be around $5499 for the non ABS 300. I could probably get a used 2011 400R for about the same or less or a used 2009 650R for not too much more than that.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder why our prices are always lower even though our dollar is weaker...

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I would really like to see a dyno on the 300.

Same.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

With a top speed of only 110 mph, its obvious they have made some serious sacrifices to get that low end torque.

Last time I checked, the top speed for a 250 was around 100, and many new-gen owners complain of only being able to take a stock bike to mid-high 90's. 110 sounds like an improvement.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

But I really don't buy the "low end torque is better" argument.

Ride a 650 twin. It's a beast in turns because it has torque all the way through the mid range, and can really drive all the way through turns. It can also lay down the grunt after the turn, no matter how short the straight away is. Lots of mid range torque.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Here is low end torque in action

Dude, a drag race? No foolin the 250 is going to walk away. Drag races are all about the top end, because you end up at the top of your rpm range at top speed; you're never IN the midrange.

Watch this video and you'll see that the CBR250R (number 211) is gaining hard on every turn. In fact, the CBR has to slow down just past apex on most turns. The ninja pulls away at every straight, but the cibber catches up on every turn. Here is low end torque in action:

Link to original page on YouTube.

Head to a track. You'll see that the SV1000's are getting massive drive out of the turns compared to the 1000 cc supersports, but the SV's are not as fast on the straights. Same thing that happens in the 250 class between the cibber and ninja

Sport bikes like turning. Using a drag race as a comparison is not a true comparison.

[Jatan]

They update colors each year so releasing all those at the same time isnt worth it for them

For 2013 its white, black, and green

2014 will probably still have a black and a green (they'll probably change it a little by adding vinyl) and maybe a red or blue instead of the white

[n4mwd]

So what was the guy riding that shot the majority of the video from his rear facing camera?

The pregen top speed is around 105 - 110 indicated. We don't know if the 300 speed of 110 is indicated or GPS. However, given the capabilities of the 650, I expected more.

The CBR250R top speed was something like 80-90 last I checked. Not something I would want.



Anyhow, I predict the 300 is going to be a disappointment. I think if I ever go bigger, its going to be a 650. At least that way I can put those smug corvette drivers in their place.

[subxero]

was planning on picking up my brand new 250 this week thought i had everything figured out...but no gotta throw a wrench into my plans. I really like the way the 300 looks and some of the additional features, I will talk with the dealer on Monday, If they can get me a 300 by sometime Nov. at a decent price I think i'm in. But on the other end i will try and talk some bills off of the 250 price as well and see how it all goes.

Should be interesting

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So what was the guy riding that shot the majority of the video from his rear facing camera?

A ninja 250R! It's a 250 race class, and the camera bike looks and sounds like a 250.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The pregen top speed is around 105 - 110 indicated. We don't know if the 300 speed of 110 is indicated or GPS. However, given the capabilities of the 650, I expected more.

Look at it this way. The 250 puts out roughly half the power of a 650. Speed and power are related by a square function; to double your speed takes 4 times the power. This means that a 650, with 2x the power, should go roughly 1.4 times as fast as a 250. If a 250 tops out around 100, which it does, that means the 650 tops out around 140, which it doesn't do. From reading, it tops out around 125-130. Looks like the 650 is not as capable as you think it is.

Adding 50cc to the 250 isn't really going to do a ton for top speed. I think you're expecting a bit much. I would expect the stock 300 to top out where a race-modded 250R tops out; right around 100-105. It will have more torque the whole way there.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Anyhow, I predict the 300 is going to be a disappointment. I think if I ever go bigger, its going to be a 650. At least that way I can put those smug corvette drivers in their place.

I respectfully disagree. I think beginners are always looking to go as big as their sanity will allow them. I think and extra 50 cc's will be enticing because there will be less perceived "rapid boredom" with the bike. Look at how successful the 636 was, and how excited people are to see it come back this year. I'm excited to see progress in the small bike market. You just seem kinda jealous and ready to not give this bike a fair shot.

[Jiggles]

Question, How hard must I stroke my 250 to make it a 300?

I think I read that the 250 and the 300 are the same engine block right? But kawi worked some magic so that the stroke shaft (what?) is shorter which in turn allowed for a longer stroke (yea baby)? Possible to convert current 250s to that?

[Jiggles]

My 650 topped out at 127mph on a flat road at 3am

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Question, How hard must I stroke my 250 to make it a 300?

I think I read that the 250 and the 300 are the same engine block right? But kawi worked some magic so that the stroke shaft (what?) is shorter which in turn allowed for a longer stroke (yea baby)? Possible to convert current 250s to that?

Sorry to say this publicly, but your 250 is too small and will never make a 300.

Forget about engine internals. Just wait for a 300 engine to show up on ebay and swap it out. There is a good chance it will fit. You just need to upgrade the EFI to 32mm and ride off.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

My 650 topped out at 127mph on a flat road at 3am

Try putting alcohol free gas in it and try it again at 3pm when its hot and the air is less dense.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

A ninja 250R! It's a 250 race class, and the camera bike looks and sounds like a 250.

I agree, you can tell by the Kawi green seen in the corner. That's where CBR250s all end up - in the rear view mirror of a Ninja.

Look at it this way. The 250 puts out roughly half the power of a 650. Speed and power are related by a square function; to double your speed takes 4 times the power. This means that a 650, with 2x the power, should go roughly 1.4 times as fast as a 250. If a 250 tops out around 100, which it does, that means the 650 tops out around 140, which it doesn't do. From reading, it tops out around 125-130. Looks like the 650 is not as capable as you think it is.

I think the formula you are looking for is:

Pn = (CdAv^3)/146625

Where Pn is the required HP, Cd = Coefficient of drag, A = frontal Area in square feet, v = velocity in mph.

For a sport bike, I get a Cd of 0.6 and an area of 6 sq ft.
So for the HP required at the wheel for various speeds is:

30mph = 0.7 hp
60 mph = 5.3 hp
70 mph = 8.4 hp
100 mph = 24.5 hp
110 mph = 32.7 hp
120 mph = 42.4 hp
130 mph = 54 hp
150 mph = 83 hp

There are other factors such as bearings, tires, etc. Rider weight is not a factor, but rider size is. The HP from this formula is to maintain the speed and not to accelerate to it.

Several modified 250s have made it to 120 mph (Using nitrous).

Regarding the Ninja 300R, I think the price tag is going to drive a lot of new riders to the CBR 250. In the UK, new riders are apparently limited to 250cc so Kawasaki clearly shot off their own foot with that one. Its possible that they will reintroduce the 250 to US and UK markets next year.

EDIT: Ok, several people have said that the UK doesn't have a 250cc restriction as I had believed. Please disregard.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In the UK, new riders are apparently limited to 250cc so Kawasaki clearly shot off their own foot with that one.

No they didn't. If anything, Kawasaki's move to add 50cc is to take advantage of the new rules effective January 2013 in the UK and EU.

You and others who have pointed it out, make a valid point about the price tag. Obviously, this being a Kawasaki forum, most opinions will be somewhat partial for the Ninja and against the CBR. I believe the 300 will do well but there's no way it will recapture all of the market share it lost from Honda and its CBR250R. It may reclaim some of it, but not all.

I read an article where it stated that the CBR250R has captured more than half of the Ninja's market share in the US since its introduction. Honda motorcycle sales are up 39% Q1 2012 compared to same quarter 2011 in North America. Some of that increase according to Honda is in part due to the CBR250R. I'm sure part of the appeal of the CBR250R is due to its lower price relative to the Ninja. Still, to me, if I were looking at a brand new small displacement "sport bike", no question I'd go for the Ninja.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

in the rear view mirror of a Ninja.

There were only 4 Ninjas ahead of him in that race. You saw the whole field at the starting line, it was pretty big. I'd say that cibber/rider did very well. Torque is fast in turns. Again, look at my SV1000 vs GSXR1000 example. Same idea.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Several modified 250s have made it to 120 mph (Using nitrous).

A highly modified 250R is your reference point?? Really? Of course a bike can hit a higher speed if someone who knows what they're doing with engines works on it. But that is not a good reference point for gauging the ability of a new bike being a failure or not. Kawasaki didn't make that 250 hit 120, Racer x did. I'm sure you could modify the crap out of a Civic and make it hit 160, but that doesn't mean that a stock Civic Si is an incapable heap of crap; that's not a fair comparison.

A stock 250 hits about 100. You can't argue that. A stock 300 will likely hit a slightly higher speed, because it has a little more power. Again, I emphasize slightly, because we're looking at 32-ish rwhp vs 26 rwhp. Expect a stock 300 to have a similar top end to that of a 250R with a full exhaust and proper jetting. (about 100-105)

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In the UK, new riders are apparently limited to 250cc so Kawasaki clearly shot off their own foot with that one.

The UK and EU changed their laws a while back, starting in 2013. The UK riders have been excited about it. Kawasaki did themselves a lot of good by now being the most powerful bike a beginner is allowed to ride, and it has the most features of any as well. It's going to be just as big of a hit in the rest of the world as it's going to be in America, where the "bigger is better" philosophy is taken to heart.


I'm not sure why you have such a vendetta against Kawasaki's redesign, to the point where you're trashing it and refusing to give it a fair try.

[Boom King]

The 300 hit 174 km/h (108 mph) on the GPS when they took it on the Autobahn. The rider was not in full tuck. The 300 test rider feels it should hit 185 km/h (115 mph) with a lighter pilot. On the 250R, even the lightest riders, full tuck with tailwind often struggle to get it to the century mark.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I'm not sure why you have such a vendetta against Kawasaki's redesign, to the point where you're trashing it and refusing to give it a fair try.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Kawasaki engineers are geniuses. Its their marketing department that I have doubts about. If the 300 proves to get superior MPG to the pregen, I may change my mind about it. But the reality is that at this point in time, we are still waiting for the independent data to trickle in.

I have heard rumors that the Ninja 300 MPG is 61 mpg. But I haven't found any confirmation from a reliable source. If true, its not bad, but no match for a properly running pregen getting 70 mpg.

As far as the extra HP of the 300, I don't deny one bit that it is more than the 250. Nor do I deny that the stock 300 can outrun a stock 250.

But what you are not getting is that unless the MPG proves awesome, there is no incentive for me to get one. I can already outrun and out accelerate most cars on the road with the pregen. The 300 will add a few more to the list. A 650 would pretty much cream all of them. But you seem to be saying that spending $5K just to add maybe 10 cars to the list that I can out accelerate is acceptable. No thanks. If I really want to cream all those smug corvette drivers, I can get a used 650 for under $5K any day of the week.

I don't do racing at the track, but don't they require everyone to have the same CC's? That is, they don't allow zx-10's to race against 49cc vespas. Or 300 cc ninjas to race 250 cc ninjas? Who else makes a 300cc bike right now??

[Jiggles]

54 hp for 130? Yea, sure bud

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

54 hp for 130? Yea, sure bud

That's a fact. Its the HP required to maintain 130 mph. You will learn about these formulas once you take physics.

[choneofakind]

The benefit of the newer ninjas over the pregen:

Tire selection, suspension, and aftermarket support

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

That's a fact. Its the HP required to maintain 130 mph. You will learn about these formulas once you take physics.

So my 650 in the power band wasn't making 54 hp? Your formula is wrong

[rusninja]

Isnt aerodynamics on the 300 side vs pregen

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by rusninja

Isnt aerodynamics on the 300 side vs pregen

Not a clue you'd have to put each in a wind tunnel and test a bit.

The new bike might be more slicked back, but the pregen is pretty narrow, so it has a relatively small profile. Now how that applies to how much drag each bike is fighting at a given speed? Idk. Anything we have is just going to be guestimation.