Ecotrons Install Thread

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Red250R

@n4mwd a bluetooth converter!? Hell yeah. How much and where can i get my hands on that lol much easier to tune if i can use my iphone.

Only if the iphone can run android apps.

Ecotrons sells them.

[Red250R]

only if the app is compatible with iphone sure lol but they're not on the website?

[Red250R]

nevermind lol just found it on the home page. and it says iphone app is under development

[choneofakind]

dude, just use a computer

Also, I got some chatting with Matt on my RICH mode and start-ups and whatnot. End result is that I went a touch richer on 70%+ throttle openings, down to 12.7 AFR. After a little n4mwd-esque riding, I like it better. Pulls all the way to an indicated 100 before the deserted, empty, driveway-free road ran out *allegedly*. Still also had more to go *allegedly*.

[drphils87]

I borrowed a laptop.

How much fuel line between the pump and the rail is too much for the pump to handle?

[drphils87]

Driveway free road Lol sounds like you had an experience just like I did one time.

[choneofakind]

Make it as short as possible. Don't worry yourself to death re-routing 5 times to cut out a 1/2" of tubing, it's not THAT big of a deal. I think my setup has about 5-6" of hose to the fuel rail, and it's fine. My last setup had probably 10 inches, also worked fine.

Nah, no issues with driveways, I'm just aware of what I'm riding by. The thought of someone backing out of a driveway at me when I'm ripping by at 80+ scares me. That's why I don't often ride like that.

[triptronix]

Hi guys

I been away from the forum for a little bit and instead of going with the N300 I decided to keep the N250 and fuel inject it. I will be placing my order with Ecotrons sometime today and I was wondering if anyone is willing to make me the brackets in exchange for payment through paypal?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by triptronix

Hi guys

I been away from the forum for a little bit and instead of going with the N300 I decided to keep the N250 and fuel inject it. I will be placing my order with Ecotrons sometime today and I was wondering if anyone is willing to make me the brackets in exchange for payment through paypal?

If you wait a little while we can start another group buy. He said we only need 3 buyers this time.

[triptronix]

Nice! First in line?

Wait... Only 3 additional buyers are just 3 buyers in general? How much will the discount be?

Is there another list for the 3rd group buy already?

[n4mwd]

I asked him about it and he said we need three to start another group buy. I will ask again to see if he will give more details.

[n4mwd]

Since I will be part of this group buy, I am going to make a set of brackets for myself. I could make a set for other people too, but I would have to figure out how much to charge. It would also depend on whether people want me to supply the extra brass or not.

If Matt says OK, then I'll start another thread.

[triptronix]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Since I will be part of this group buy, I am going to make a set of brackets for myself. I could make a set for other people too, but I would have to figure out how much to charge. It would also depend on whether people want me to supply the extra brass or not.

If Matt says OK, then I'll start another thread.

I would pay for the extra brass parts etc... let me know

[n4mwd]

It looks like its going to be 5 buyers minimum:

5 people = 20% off = $480

I'm still waiting on Matt for final approval for the group buy, but he said it would be the same deal as the one in March.

Shipping is extra.

If I supply the brass, keep in mind that I don't get anything wholesale, I'm just gathering it for people. I'd be happy to pass it on for my cost. That should help people save on shipping.

[triptronix]

Im ok with the extra cost but I can't speak for the others =)

[drphils87]

If it consistently misses on one cyclinder in both modes (more in eco than rich) would that possible mean I have a clogged injector?

WOT works good most of the time though. Is that because the injector moving the debris around while it's going full blast?

Couldn't get the Win7 to open the program even with following the directions. So I just installed it on the windows xp and am just going to get a long usb cable. Or do I need to have the screen by the bike while it's running?

[n4mwd]

If you have a clogged injector, you would be the first.

More likely, you need to train more in eco mode. Its possible, but unlikely, that you damaged the O2 sensor when you welded it. That would cause eco mode to fail on that cylinder.

I can't help you with win 7, but you do need to get procal to run on something.

[choneofakind]

Can we separate GB talk and install talk? It's confusing.

[choneofakind]

Are you positive it's missing on one cylinder? Do both header pipes get hot? sorry if I missed this in a previous post. If WOT works, sounds like you just need learning time because it's just running rough still

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by drphils87

If it consistently misses on one cyclinder in both modes (more in eco than rich) would that possible mean I have a clogged injector?

WOT works good most of the time though. Is that because the injector moving the debris around while it's going full blast?

Couldn't get the Win7 to open the program even with following the directions. So I just installed it on the windows xp and am just going to get a long usb cable. Or do I need to have the screen by the bike while it's running?

U need to open procal and see what it thinks is wrong. It will tell u if something isnt running right. Do that first before u keep riding it.

[drphils87]

I got another laptop that will supposely work.

I wasn't expecting to get the laptop so soon so I have everything apart checking and getting rid of the possiblity of a clogged injector. I will do it tonight when I have it back together.

I didn't see anything wrong with the injectors though.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Can we separate GB talk and install talk? It's confusing.

Good idea. New group buy is at this link.

[drphils87]

I am really good at loosing stuff even though I set everything on the table in plain sight. I wish they had a frowny face with rolled eyes.

[drphils87]

"The system is working perfectly!"

It drove decent in rich mode. No change in eco mode. So is there anything else I can do with the program to get eco mode to work? Or do I keep driving it in eco mode while it's supposely learning.

It drives fine in eco mode while it's warming up. I get about halfway down the road and start loosing power. I smoothly go into WOT to maintain speed while it's only fire on one cylinder. After about five to ten seconds of this it starts firing on both again. When I have to stop I have to excessively slip the clutch to get started. It's even worse than the honda rebel. I can make a video. I have a Jardine GP1 exhaust so it's loud enough to hear.

Should I talk to Matt instead of bothing you guys? Or should I stop worrying because it will "iron itself out."

[n4mwd]

The first thing Matt will do is ask you for a log of your ride where it does what you are saying. Without that, nobody can really help you.

In my install, I was expecting a lot of problems, but there were virtually none. I had a rough spot about 7K if I remember, but it ironed itself out after a few rides in ECO mode.

If your bike is running on one cylinder, check the plugs to make sure someone didn't put the wrong ones in there. They should be NGK only.

[drphils87]

I put NGK Iridiums about a month ago. Those are the best plugs you can get for this bike right? I guess I'll pull them out and check them again? I remember one time I had a sparkplug leak on the rebel, but instead of it being at the base of the plug, it was in between the porselin and the metal. It did show the same symtoms as the ninja has right now. However, rich mode works decent. Also those NGK's are probably better quality than the three dollar plugs I had on the rebel.

When you say take log of my ride does that mean I have to carry the laptop with me while I ride, or is there a safer way?

What is the best way to get a hold of Matt?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

I put NGK Iridiums about a month ago. Those are the best plugs you can get for this bike right? I guess I'll pull them out and check them again? I remember one time I had a sparkplug leak on the rebel, but instead of it being at the base of the plug, it was in between the porselin and the metal. It did show the same symtoms as the ninja has right now. However, rich mode works decent. Also those NGK's are probably better quality than the three dollar plugs I had on the rebel.

When you say take log of my ride does that mean I have to carry the laptop with me while I ride, or is there a safer way?

What is the best way to get a hold of Matt?

I don't know anything about the iridium plugs - only that they aren't what I use. I've never had any problem with the plain jane CR8HSA plugs.

Yes, you will need to carry the laptop with you (like in a backpack). Or you could buy the bluetooth adapter and do it with an android phone.

I think Matt's email is info@ecotrons.com

But like I said, he can't help you without a log. Otherwise, he has no way of knowing what is going on.

But in your case, you said before that you couldn't start it at first, but that it turned out that your plugs were bad. So can I assume that the bike was not running before you installed the kit?

[drphils87]

It was sitting for almost a month while I was waiting for parts and putting it together, but before that it ran fine with the old plugs. They looked fine when I pulled them out, but the one them (on the left side) didn't produce a spark at all. I replaced them both and it started right up. There was probably a little more than 6k miles on the old plugs.

I ran it in rich mode for about two weeks with no trouble and then decided to put the oxygen sensors in place of the bungs and try eco mode. That is when I started having trouble with both modes. As soon as I flipped that switch it started acting up.

Rich mode is not so decent anymore. It's still better than eco though.

I will pull both plugs out and check for damage or corrosion.

[n4mwd]

Well, its pretty hard to kill an O2 sensor with heat, but it sure sounds like you managed somehow. You might try downloading @choneofakind 's map and see if it works for you. He pulled his O2 sensors out completely and always uses RICH mode.

You should also check your coil wiring. I've heard of some bikes corroding inside the terminals causing a poor connection.

When you flip the switch... Does it start acting badly when you flip it while the bike is running or do you have to restart it?

[drphils87]

I just sent an email to Matt.

When I switch between modes I always turn the ignition off when I flip the switch. I can tell almost immediatly a difference when I start it. I will try it while the engine is still running.

I need a multimeter to check the coils right? I'll look how to do that on youtube instead of making you teach me.

I'll try his map last thing. Where do I go to receive it?

[choneofakind]

Hang on. Let's get this straight before there's any more confusion.

My rich map is only good for after the bike has learned. The RICH map is based on extrapolation. My RICH map will net the same results on any bike as long as proper learning time is used for the ECU to accurately know the needs of the bike. Learning mode tells the ECU what is needed for 14.7 AFR at all throttle openings and loading conditions. Then, using the that data, the ECU extrapolates to determine how much fuel is needed to deliver a desired AFR at a certain engine speed and throttle opening.

That is why learning mode is so important; it calibrates every bike to the same '1' value so that the rich map can be applied with the same results to every bike. I'm just not sure how accurate the preloaded value of '1' is, considering that every bike is slightly different and is using different intake/exhaust setups.

Adjusting fuel via the RICH map without any learning time is the same as jetting; different for every bike/location. In that case, you aren't basing the required fuel off of a known value ('1', aka 14.7) to get a specific AFR, you're just adjusting the amount of fuel delivered until it gets to the right actual AFR (not necessarily the same as the desired AFR, as seen in the RICH map). This method is possible, but will be specific to each bike and will be best done on a dyno by someone with lots of time on their hands.

Does that make more sense? I don't want anyone thinking they can just install their kit, load my excel files, and have a perfectly running bike, no matter their intake/exhaust setup. My tuning is based off of a bike that already has had enough time in ECO mode to know the requirements for an AFR of 14.7. Because of this, I recommend using ECO mode for some time to learn, then using my rich map. If you plan to tune without ever using ECO mode, I won't be much help in terms of supplying files, but I can suggest what AFR's to shoot for (in which case you'll still need to use a dyno which is operated by a dude who knows more than me, or you'll need a wideband O2 sensor to check the AFR's, which kind of defeats the purpose...)

Don't let this dismay you, the system does in fact work!!! I promise

EDIT: if you also plan to use my ignition timing map (which I recommend, the supplied ignition timing is wimpy), you'll need to load that before getting learning time. I'm not sure if the ECU has the ability to calculate the AFR based on a different ignition angle than it learned at. I think this is a case of getting your groundwork done before building.

[choneofakind]

Phil, my files are in my modifications blog in my signature. Just click on the file you want to download. It will download. Then you go into ProCal, open the respective table, click 'Import' and select the file you just downloaded. Don't worry about them being in compressed format, they will still work correctly without having to unzip them.

But hang on with that until you can get learning time. See above post.

[drphils87]

I typed a good amount of imformation and lost it, so I'm just going to say I'm getting some new coils because I think my right coil is messed up.

[Red250R]

Ugh, you guys can call me stupid all you want lol i feel very stupid now. So i got it started on the bikes battery no problem. I guess i can thank Koso for this on. Just received my Koso gauges today. I had already planned to work on the bike today but since i wasn't expecting the gauges to come till tomorrow, i was really happy they came today so i jumped right ahead and changed out a couple of the pieces on the EFI and let it sit for a bit while i worked on installing the Koso kit. Tried to start it after i finished the gauges, wouldn't start. Got pissed. So then i decided to push it back to its parking spot and start again tomorrow seeing as it was starting to get dark. Then while i had it level with the ground, i was still infatuated with the gauges so i wanted to turn the key and see them light up again. Pump made a different noise than it has yet. Looked at the filter as i was holding it level and turned the key, fuel emptied from the filter and went down. Then i filled up the tank more seeing as i damn near emptied it before. Pumped the fuel thru a couple times and then tried starting it. Started right up without hesitation. Now i don't know if its because i took out a bad bend in the hose that i routed and put a 90 degree piece in or if its because i had it sitting level. It was getting late and i was too hungry to investigate it any more but the main point was that it started thank god. thank you guys too lol

[choneofakind]

glad you got it. Remember to keep the inlet to the pump higher than the outlet so bubbles can escape. You'll get used to the new 'normal' sounds.


Did it seem to idle and warm-up right? any chance to ride it? Were you in ECO or RICH mode? Throttle response seem alright? just things to check out.

[Red250R]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

glad you got it. Remember to keep the inlet to the pump higher than the outlet so bubbles can escape. You'll get used to the new 'normal' sounds.


Did it seem to idle and warm-up right? any chance to ride it? Were you in ECO or RICH mode? Throttle response seem alright? just things to check out.

It is higher. Like i said, i don't know if the hose was kinked so much that it restricted flow and then i opened it up more by putting the 90 in, or if its cuz the bike was leaning or whatever. More investigating tomorrow or friday. Weather depending. And i only ran it for like 5 mins. Some of the welding **** was burning off but i didn't run it any longer than 5 mins. It was dark, the sides and the seat are still off, and i didn't wanna ride only to have it shut down because of lack of fuel or something. Wanna make sure its running 100% before i take it for a real test ride. And i started it/kept it in rich mode. Throttle response seemed fine, but once again, i didn't let it run long so i wasn't gunna hit the throttle without warming it up. Idle stayed true to 1500 without even moving unless i hit the throttle. Very strong and steady idle.

[drphils87]

Does it almost die when you have a good amount of rpms going and then let off the gas like mine does everytime? I'd really like to fix that. Hopefully with time it will work itself out like everyone else's. I'm too lazy to read this whole forum to see how it was resolved.

I should get my coils in tomorrow. If it doesn't fix the main problem I'm having I will sent a log to Matt. I really think my prblem has nothing to do with the FI system since it said it was "...working properly!"

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Does it almost die when you have a good amount of rpms going and then let off the gas like mine does everytime? I'd really like to fix that. Hopefully with time it will work itself out like everyone else's. I'm too lazy to read this whole forum to see how it was resolved.

I should get my coils in tomorrow. If it doesn't fix the main problem I'm having I will sent a log to Matt. I really think my prblem has nothing to do with the FI system since it said it was "...working properly!"

Choneofakind said there was a variable in procal to fix that. It has to do with the RPM at which the fuel gets cut back on during a deceleration - aka letting go of the throttle. Basically, it tries to stop at 1500 RPM but overshoots to zero if the bike is not in gear. There should be one for rapid decel and slow decel. Choneofakind is our resident procal expert.

I had the same problem here, but it kinda fixed itself.

[choneofakind]

I adjusted the decel fuel cutoff to 2100 RPM. Seems to work nicely and not die. It also go much better about that after some learning time.

Again, there's an excel file in my sig for the decel fuel cut off at 2100 rpm. I'm not an expert, I've just been futzing around with it a little bit.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I adjusted the decel fuel cutoff to 2100 RPM. Seems to work nicely and not die. It also go much better about that after some learning time.

Again, there's an excel file in my sig for the decel fuel cut off at 2100 rpm. I'm not an expert, I've just been futzing around with it a little bit.

Where do you get the list of all those variables and what they do?