June 30th, 2009, 04:13 PM | #121 |
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Think about what your saying. You said the tach in the orig message, not cdi.
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June 30th, 2009, 04:34 PM | #122 | |
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hey guys - just found this post over on kf
Quote:
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June 30th, 2009, 05:13 PM | #123 | |
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Quote:
In any case, NHTSA rarely gets involved unless there is a substantive claim that safety is compromised and people are about to or have already been hurt, but I guess if he's willing to go direct, can't hurt to try. I assure you, Kawi DOES know about the tach issue! There have been many, many claims made all over the internet, and if even half are true, there's a problem. There can be no doubt for me, based on how many the two local shops have replaced recently (since the daily temperature started to get into the 80s+).
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June 30th, 2009, 05:18 PM | #124 | |
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Quote:
Your original message talks about TACH replacement (OEM and secondary, post #127)...is IRRELEVANT. The issue is CDI malfunction sending an improper signal (absolute difference) to be DISPLAYS by the tach. So even if the OEM tach is off, it will be off regardless with same amount. So when the CDI send another signal (different signal), that "off" tach will still be off PLUS the difference sent by the CDI (new signal). for example at 70mph on 6 gears: CDI send to tach to displays: 7000rpm (cold) or 8000rpm (hot) OEM tach (if it's off for example) will display: 8000 (cold) or 9000 (hot) CORRECT tach: will display: 7000rpm (cold) or 8000rpm (hot) As you can see, the difference (absolute) is 1000rpm in cold/hot state...doesn't matter which tach..the difference will still be the same. Your original message of changing the tach is again....IRRELEVANT. If the OEM tach off by one million...then in cold it will be 1 million, in hot it will be 1 million + 1000rpm. |
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June 30th, 2009, 05:19 PM | #125 | |
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If the tach is bad, as John pointed out, it will be consistently bad. I have slaved in another tach to the other coil with my local shop, got the CDI to heat fail, and the factory tach be 'off' while the slave tach on the other coil was 'good'. Didn't make sense, so we swapped coils, no difference! Tried different coils, no difference! Swapped CDI, and the problem changed. Conclusion=CDI BAD.
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June 30th, 2009, 05:22 PM | #126 |
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June 30th, 2009, 05:28 PM | #127 | |
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Quote:
Unless heat is also affecting the discriminator circuit in the TACH that counts the pulses! I agree with you, though. The tach is stupid, and only displays what it's told. Regardless of how far a given tach may be biased high or low, the hot vs. cold indications as absolutes are what you're looking for. The root cause is the CDI. I disagreed when the shop wanted to replace my factory tach, and so did the service manager. Kawi over ruled him and shipped a tach for warranty service. That's their game of lather, rinse, repeat! The end result is the same, the CDI is not tolerant of heat, ambient (and in some cases even electronic induced), and causes different indications on the tach when comparing hot vs cold operation. This has been verified time and time again. A tach can never be in series with the spark, or it will become, very briefly, the spark plug!
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June 30th, 2009, 05:35 PM | #128 | |
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Quote:
Mine OEM: cold (70mph in 6 gears) is 7K rpm hot : 8K rpm after swap: cold(70mph in 6 gears) is 7.5k rpm hot: 8.5k rpm the diff. is still 1000rpm. It got dark and I didn't get a chance to swap the CDI. His bike doesn't exhibit the cold/hot symptoms as mine though...at least not yet (he just bought it). I need to get together with him again to do more testing (if he's willing) |
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June 30th, 2009, 05:36 PM | #129 | |
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Quote:
SORRY I agree, and ALWAYS HAVE!!!!! It's a series of bad CDIs. I, too, have done a swap with a "known good" good CDI and gotten the problem to go away 100%
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June 30th, 2009, 05:42 PM | #130 |
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pssst... did you see the post from kf above?
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June 30th, 2009, 05:44 PM | #131 |
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pssst......did you see my answer to your post right under it?
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June 30th, 2009, 05:47 PM | #132 |
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the other quote threw me
I've got the warranty form in front of me, so I've been following this thread trying to decide what to do about buying the extended warranty - I hadn't planned to do it, but it's been making me think about it with this issue that they don't want to acknowledge...
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June 30th, 2009, 05:49 PM | #133 | |
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Quote:
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June 30th, 2009, 05:51 PM | #134 | |
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Quote:
The NHTSA gets data on warranty claims straight from manufacturers and service centers (required by law) based on claims during the warranty period. For them to look into anything automatically, there have to be sufficient claims vs. the number of units sold. Each unreported problem makes it that much harder to use the muscle of government regulation to make the product correct, and helps the manufacturer shift the burden onto the unsuspecting consumer. That REALLY ticks me off, since Kawi knows all about the problem. I finally got to the point where I am SURE it's a bad CDI because I put in a known good one. The CDI I have in the bike now only bobbles the indication around 9K rpm, and I can live with that, as it has been verified to be the ONLY issue. Other than that, I personally did not opt to extend my warranty hoping for a lasting fix.
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June 30th, 2009, 05:55 PM | #135 | |
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Quote:
They're probably like vintage French rifles......barely used and only dropped once!
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June 30th, 2009, 06:02 PM | #136 |
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lol...can't be any worse than some coming fresh from the factory. either you have the problem or you don't... luck of the draw, it seems.
look what I just got off ebay, just in case I become one of the unlucky ones. think it will work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT |
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June 30th, 2009, 06:05 PM | #137 | |
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Quote:
In any case, I'm skeptical about the different spark curve, too, until I do a little more reading. Edit to add: I'm still trying to get a known bad CDI so I can open it up and hook some old school test equipment up to it and see what it's doing. Hopefully it's not pottted inside and I can get to the circuit board and components without destroying something. In any case, I have 'access' to that sort of equipment, so if it becomes difficult, I can enlist 'professional' assistance! (One of the perks of working with some of the Navy's finest electronics techs)
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June 30th, 2009, 06:09 PM | #138 |
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yes, as I read in some other post, some are using the pregen units due to them not having this problem. The advance curve is something I'm concerned with as well. also, it has a higher rev limit than our bikes.... hmmm sounds exactly what a rev box does for my dirt bike.
we'll see if/when my CDI goes out. my bike is out of warranty, btw. |
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June 30th, 2009, 07:58 PM | #139 |
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so, would installing some sort of cooking fan like in a computer case and/or a heat sink help to keep the thing cool?
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June 30th, 2009, 08:54 PM | #140 |
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Potentially, but only if there's a path for the heat to escape. Putting a fan right on it as is without opening anything else up won't likely do much good; it's a pretty tiny area in there with no place for the hot air to be blown to right now...
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June 30th, 2009, 08:55 PM | #141 |
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Yeager dude put a computer fan on top of the CDI and it helps.
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June 30th, 2009, 08:56 PM | #142 |
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He says it helps. I'm not buying it.
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June 30th, 2009, 09:10 PM | #143 |
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liquid cool it
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July 1st, 2009, 04:31 AM | #144 |
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Me, either. His fan was placed right on top of the CDI, with minimal draw and minimal exhaust over the unit, so overall almost negligible airflow. There is no where for the hot air to go once heated over the unit. Even if it helps initially very quickly you end up circulating just hot air that keeps getting hotter. You end up right where you started, but have the added expense and hastle of having some silly fan under your butt. That's called a zero sum gain.
The only way it would work would be to cut two holes, one intake that goes over the CDI, and one exhaust to get rid of the heated air. As I said before on this post, I'm not going to volunteer to cut holes in my bike just to see if it works! Nice idea. Trouble is that most units start having issues when ambient temp is in the mid 80s+. You'd have to plumb some sort of stand alone system (then there's the issue of resivoir, pump, wiring, and heat transfer plates and a radiator), as the bike's coolant runs WAY too hot and would fry the unit quickly. It would only work if there was constant airflow on the stand alone radiator below 80ish degrees F, which means it would be a lot of effort and would not work in stop and go traffic most of the spring, summer, and half the fall (riding season).
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July 1st, 2009, 05:00 AM | #145 |
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I said it in the other thread but since this is the official discussion here, my Ninja got the overheating cdi issue. However I only noticed it ONCE and it was when it was very hot and humid outside, (over 30celcius). My bike is out of warrenty. It sucks but it's not a big issue for me since it's rarely that hot here...Ironicaly my vacuum cleaner overheated the same day, ROFL.
Banzai: It might be a better solution to change the location of the CDI. Modifications to the wires would enable you to put in in a location with constant airflow instead of stuck inside the tail!
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July 1st, 2009, 05:25 AM | #146 | ||
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Quote:
I hear ya! Life conspires against us every day! I'm down to a purely indication problem, so I'm leaving mine alone. My long term plan is to get one of the aftermarket semi-programable units from overseas and try that out. I have been emailing quite a few people lately who have been using them and they all report that they have no issues in their rain and heat and humidity with the aftermarket units in the stock location........so that only makes me more sure that Kawi spec'd crappy chips in their CDI units. Quote:
I would point out that unless each and every one with this issue reports it to Kawi and forces a fix, it won't get fixed until the current run of parts runs dry and they do a spec upgrade and don't have to pay to fix the rest of the broken bikes out there. They hide behind "Specifications subject to change without notice". As to a ram scoop, sounds like a neat idea, but you'll still be getting air from through the radiator and across the hot engine, and you still need somewhere for it to go once it goes under the seat and into the tail. Pretty tight area under the seat for duct work, too, as the CDI is pretty much right under your butt by the trunk lock.
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July 1st, 2009, 05:32 AM | #147 | |
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Quote:
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July 1st, 2009, 05:37 AM | #148 |
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That's why I would love to get ahold of one to take apart and test. I have access to equipment that can dynamically test the circuits while subjecting it to various thermal and electronic loads.
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July 1st, 2009, 07:47 AM | #149 |
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That's my post - I just added a complaint form to make it super easy to submit a complaint to NHTSA.
If you guys are experiencing the "tach issue", it would be a big help if you would fill out the complaint form and mail it in. The more complaint forms they get, the more likely they are to open a defect investigation. This has to be a "grass roots" type effort by us - owners of these 2008-2009 Ninja 250's - no one else is going to do it for us and Kawasaki sure isn't going to step up to the plate and take care of us out of the goodness of their hearts. Please spread the word and if possible post up in the thread over at kawiforums (http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-250r...ml#post1688732) if/when you have mailed your complaint form so we can kind of keep track of things and see what happens. |
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July 1st, 2009, 08:12 AM | #150 |
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I found the Canadian website where "Transport Canada" is pretty much the NHTSA equivalent here. The safety issue here would be obviously, power loss on the highway, specially during passing menoeuvers.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/defe....aspx?lang=fra I will post a compaint once I can re-confirm my issue, if theres any other Canadian owners with that issue please report it too! -remy
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July 1st, 2009, 11:36 AM | #151 |
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Also write to motorcycle magazine. They'll punish bad review, kawi will panic and fix their craps. Perhaps this is more effective since it hits their $$$ pocket.
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July 1st, 2009, 02:40 PM | #152 |
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great to see you join us here Kevin
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July 1st, 2009, 06:56 PM | #153 |
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okay, installed another cdi courtesy from the dealer/kawi corp (pulled some strings)...no more cdi issue as far as i can tell now...let's hope this is the end of it as I'm 2 months out of warranty.
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July 8th, 2009, 08:24 PM | #154 |
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Ive had this same problem. horribly annoying. the power loss is subtle so you may have it but not quite notice it. ive had the dealer put in a new CDI. and my problem(almost immediately) continued..
bike is currently sitting in the shop, waiting to get "fixed" again.. |
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July 9th, 2009, 10:55 AM | #155 |
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ok guys - do you think that the sudden seeming gain in power combined with the lowish gas mileage could be the cdi for me as well? since I live in the mountains, I can't really judge by rpms, as different inclines at the same speed are going to yield different RPMs... I could try and find somewhere flat to test it though if you think that might be it....
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July 9th, 2009, 11:46 AM | #156 |
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Flat or inclined won't have anything to do with different RPMs, as long as you're in the same gear. If the clutch is engaged, the speed of the motor is directly connected to however fast the rear wheel is turning, coupled with the current gear selected; that's it.
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July 9th, 2009, 12:14 PM | #157 | |
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Quote:
I do a high percentage of highway riding, so I find myself droning along at ~70+mph a lot - it's real easy to notice a tach that is reading bogus RPM's. When I cruise the surface streets and am in stop and go traffic, I don't pay as much attention to the tach (gotta watch all the a-hole drivers all around me ). |
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July 9th, 2009, 12:16 PM | #158 |
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I've been looking for that same discrepancy on mine, perhaps hoping to notice it as an explanation for low fuel economy that I get from time to time (in the low 30's for some rides, believe it or not). But unfortunately, or fortunately, I guess, I've never seen any RPM variations like that. Hot or cold, a certain speed on the highway translates into a certain RPM showing up on my tach.
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July 9th, 2009, 12:47 PM | #159 |
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well in that case, I may very well have the CDI issue going on then - I just assumed that I wasn't always seeing 6300 rpm at 40 in 4th gear due to the change in the grade of the road.... I'll have to make more of a note of it now
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July 9th, 2009, 02:24 PM | #160 | |
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Quote:
If the tach reads a different RPM for the same speed, same gear when the bike is COLD vs. WARM, then there's a problem. How much of a problem is unknown. It seems like some are reporting driveability issues while others just think it is an bad signal to the tach and nothing to worry about. If anyone has this issue (in or out of warranty) on an 08 or 09 250, I strongly urge you to file a vehicle safety complaint with NHTSA - I put up a post at kawiforums in the 250 section with a mostly filled out complaint form - just print it, add your name and vehicle info, and mail it in. |
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