October 3rd, 2015, 09:19 AM | #121 |
Que Buenos Son!!!
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The only use I'd have for an autonomous vehicle is to take me home from the bar,.. but they'd probably make it illegal to drive autonomously while drunk too. No way the "man" wants to give up that revenue. $$$
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October 3rd, 2015, 09:21 AM | #122 |
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Lol. I would be the guy who programmed his autonomous car to rev to peak power every single shift, as long as the engine was up to proper temperature. and put a fart cannon on it so everyone could enjoy the show.
wahhhH!! |
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October 3rd, 2015, 10:50 AM | #123 | |
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Sidenote, @Hero Danny, are you on youtube? Saw that username post on one of Motonosity's vids, pic was a blue swirly thingy Sidenote Sidenote, this thread seems very intelligent, one day'll ill read it all, one day..
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October 3rd, 2015, 10:57 AM | #124 |
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He's HEROrr on the youtube.
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October 3rd, 2015, 11:27 AM | #125 |
ChocolateMilk Addict
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Dudeee what a coinkidink
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October 3rd, 2015, 04:32 PM | #126 |
ChocolateMilk Addict
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LOL just saw wanna HEROrr's comment on Do It with dans fender fab thingy video, anyways, fancy seeing you there Hero
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October 3rd, 2015, 08:21 PM | #127 |
Inline 4!!!
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Hi
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October 3rd, 2015, 08:52 PM | #128 |
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October 4th, 2015, 05:09 PM | #129 | |
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October 4th, 2015, 07:26 PM | #130 |
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Lol, I think I can pass on those.
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October 4th, 2015, 11:16 PM | #132 |
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You telling me, that thing'll wash my ass for me? Ma, get the piggy bank..
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October 5th, 2015, 10:33 AM | #133 | ||||
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One thing that is typically ignored by anti-EVers when comparing EV to IC is maintenance cost. The typical modern EV require essentially no regular maintenance. No oil changes, no filter changes, no transmission flushes and filter changes, no coolant flushes and changes, no hoses, no accessory belts, no timing belts, no sensor replacements, no catalytic converter replacement, no tuneups, no spark plug changes, not anything at all. The Tesla models, require, in order of frequency, cabin air filter element, windshield wipers, and tires. Repairs? There's no emissions system, no fuel injection system (and hence no fuel pump), no exhaust system to rust away. No muffler(s), no fuel filter, no vacuum hoses, no engine air filter, no gaskets to ever leak, no dipstick to check. Even today, IC technology is just so maintenance intensive compared to EVs. Oh, and every few years you have to spend $100 or more to replace the lead-acid starting battery in an IC vehicle. Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; October 5th, 2015 at 04:47 PM. Reason: d'oh! |
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October 5th, 2015, 10:53 AM | #134 | |||||
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Actually, there is in EVs and IC-powered hybrids a way to recapture energy. It's called regenerative braking, and it works by using the electric motor as a generator. Running as a generator slows the car down, converting the energy of the car's motion into electricity and storing it. That's one of the reasons why hybrid cars often get better mileage in stop and go driving than out on the open highway. In a pure IC car that energy of motion is just turned into hot brake rotors and discarded into the air as waste heat. Oh, comparing the energy content between batteries and gas tanks is not meaningful because electric drivetrains can be 300% more efficent in converting that stored energy into motion than gasoline drivetrains. That's why the more accurate comparison is to look at the end energy cost to move a given amount of mass a given distance. And, when you factor in maintenance costs that price per mile decreases even further. Even depreciation is better because EVs (and to a lesser extent hybrids) hold their value better than similarly equipped pure chemical fueled cars. Quote:
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The Leaf is targeting the under $25K market. That it's able to do so is impressive. Range is increasing as battery technology and pricing become more favorable. I doubt the Leaf would (or could) weigh "thousands of pounds" less if it was an IC car. I don't know much about the Spark or 500e, though have looked at the i3. BTW, have you looked at car weights lately? The Mustang (which created the "ponycar" moniker to represent light-weight sportiness) weighs well over 4,000 lbs. The Camaro? The same. Cars are heavier than they've ever been, driven by modern crash safety requirements for the most part. BTW, did you hear that Tesla broke the machine that was used to test the rollover crush requirements? The Model S is one of the safest cars that has ever existed. There's literally nothing that it's comparable with in that category. Back to the Leaf, the batteries don't take up a large part of the weight of that car. Doubling or tripling the range by adding batteries would likely add only hundreds of pounds, not thousands (or even a thousand). Target market pricing (in-town commuting) is the likely reason for the battery size in that model, not weight. As battery prices continue falling I expect the Leaf to get significantly increase range in the future. I don't know if you're an anti-EVer or not, but you make statements that are similar to them like saying that EV cars are "thousands of pounds" heavier than comparable IC cars, a statement that's provably false as I did in my previous reply. I'm not interested in trying to convert you into someone who thinks EV is, right now, today, a viable alternative to IC for many if not most drivers, because honestly I don't think you want to or are able to believe that. Rather, my point in trying to dispel the myths and misinformation about EVs that seems so prevalant is to encourage folks who are curious about the technology to look into it with an open mind and form their own opinions. The anti-EV contingent is working tirelessly to create the opinion in undecided consumers that EV is not viable, not now, and not for the foreseeable future, when the truth is quite the opposite. EV's aren't significantly heavier than comparable IC models. Often times they're even lighter. EV's have a daily driving range that is perfectly suitable for many if not most drivers. They're currently fairly expensive for the highest-end models such as the Tesla sedans, sure, but I sure don't see the anti-EVers complaining about how expensive the comparable IC makes and models are. $80K for an EV? That's nuts! $80K for a Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc? Don't even blink an eye. What does that tell me about the complaints about price? That it's not about the price at all, it's just about it being an EV. That's one way you tell an anti-EVer apart. You can claim significant battery technology advancements are unlikely to happen in 20-40 years, but to do that you'd have to pretend that the progress we make in the next 40 is only a tiny sliver of a fraction of the progress we've made in the last 20-40 years. Hell, even the last 10 years. It' s like saying that suddenly most all R&D into battery technology will come to a near-stop, an assumption that flies in the face of reality IMHO. The main driver for Li research was portable electronics, and in the last 10 years that has evolved toward transportation. There are real incentives in place now to discover and develop new battery technologies as it is becoming clear that burning fossil fuels to move butts around is non-sustainable in most every aspect. Quote:
Power density is the same exact challenge with transportation batteries. Lithium chemistries aren't the only solution, they're just the best in mass production out there now. There are numerous promising chemistries being developed in research labs all over the world today. Will all of them pan out? Of course not. Many technologies didn't pan out while lithium did in the 90's. Even lithium didn't pan out when it was first looked at in the70's. Because of lithium, EV technologies are viable for many drivers now, today, despite what the anti-EVers want folks to believe otherwise. Is lithium the end-all and be-all? Not any more than lead plates stacked in glass boxes filled with sulfuric acid were back in 1920. Lithium chemistries are the key to the new generations of EVs whether four wheels or two, and in the next few years we should see much more competitive pricing across the board as production ramps up. Sorry for the wall of text, I just felt like what I said needed to be said. I think I've said about all I can say on the subject, and hope that someone on the fence about EV will give it an honest look for themselves instead of being swayed by all the misinformation and negative stereotypes being posted across the web today. |
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October 5th, 2015, 11:40 AM | #135 |
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We are looking at the same facts, and coming to different conclusions. You're overweighting thermodynamic efficiency as something that matters to a car buyer, when I'm pointing out that traveling 50 miles on something that weighs 6 pounds and costs $2.50 is incredibly efficient compared to one that weighs 300 pounds. You think that 660 pounds in a subcompact (Leaf) isn't a significant part of the weight of the car; I'd disagree with that assessment. You're discounting the range issue as a significant factor, I think it's what will limit EV's as secondary cars at best for almost all households for decades to come. People don't buy cars to feel tied to home, even if that's all they would use it for the vast majority of the time.
I'm not sure there is an anti-ev crowd, but if there is, I'm across the street poking fun at them. And also throwing water balloons at the true believers, who wildly overestimate not only what is available today, but what they hope will be available real soon now. When Musk is talking about 5% yearly improvement in batteries to Tesla owners (capacity), those that believe that means "exponential" improvement aren't paying attention.
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October 5th, 2015, 12:01 PM | #136 |
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Chevy Bolt Battery Cells = $145/kWh
https://cleantechnica.com/2015/10/05...omous-driving/ That will make that $20,000 battery about $13,000. Getting close to half already.
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October 5th, 2015, 01:20 PM | #137 |
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October 5th, 2015, 04:57 PM | #138 |
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50mpg is unusually for an IC car, 30's is more typical. Gas has only been down below $2.50 a couple of times since the latter stages of the Bush administration. Gas will go back up, and maybe drivable cars that get 40+ will become available eventually. Tens of thousands drive EVs now without issue, every one built is selling with a backlog, and attempting to claim facts for decades to come isn't realistic. Maybe that's more hope than prediction IMHO.
Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; October 5th, 2015 at 06:59 PM. Reason: accuracy |
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October 5th, 2015, 06:42 PM | #139 |
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Gas has been in the $2.20-2.40 range for months here...
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October 5th, 2015, 07:05 PM | #140 |
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ok gramps
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October 5th, 2015, 07:45 PM | #141 |
Freedom for Germany
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At an outside temperature of 22°C with activated ventilation the efficiency from battery to road is 56%, at -5°C and switched heating it is only 22%.
On battery at 22°C while driving 19% of the charged energy is lost, at -5°C there are 48% lost (because lithium batteries are inefficient when cold). The drive train has an efficiency of 50 to about 60%. The recovery of braking energy has an efficiency of 56%. The efficiency of an EV at least is the same like an IC gasoline with around 30% while a Diesel is around 40%. |
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October 6th, 2015, 06:05 AM | #142 | |
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50 mpg is not unusual at all for a hybrid here in 2015, deriving power only from gasoline.
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To paraphrase some of your earlier posts to me, it sounds like you might not be aware of hybrid technology. Cars that get 40+ mpg, accelerate promptly, and have tremendous range are available right now, from some of the largest automakers on the planet. I'm not sure what you're inferring by drivable, but perhaps you could clarify your misunderstanding.
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October 6th, 2015, 10:44 AM | #143 | |
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BTW, if you don't want to sound like an anti-EVer, perhaps you shouldn't talk like one. Sorry if I offend you, I just had to offer corrections on the myths, misinformation, and outright lies I see WRT EV technology lately. For others who have a real interest in the subject, some information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-i..._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...use_by_country Best effiency cars (including hybrids, excluding EVs): https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best-worst.shtml Non-Hybrid 37mpg Honda CR-Z 2-seater 37mpg Scion iQ Subcompact 36mpg Audi A3 Turbo Subcompact 36mpg Ford Fiesta subcompact 36mpg Honda Fit Small station wagon Hybrid 50mpg Toyota Prius C Compact 10.7s 0-60, 18s 1/4 50mpg Toyota Prius Midsize 9.7s 0-60 17.1s 1/4 42mpg Toyota Prius V Midsize wagon 10.2s 0-60 17.8s 1/4 40mpg Ford C-Max Large (?) 9.4s 0-60 16.8s 1/4 http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle...-60-mph-times/ Sadly, there are only two cars in the 50mpg and two in the 40mpg range. I've excluded VW's TDI series because of the ongoing cheating scandal. You can't even buy one from a dealer now. More politically-oriented information that is still factual and backed up by real science: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...ic-cars/185798 Satisfaction surveys place EVs and hybrids at the very top: http://evobsession.com/electric-car-...ion-3-surveys/ (all those folks must be lying, how can anyone be satisfied with driving a slow, heavy EV that can't drive very far without a very long extension cord). As to EV bikes? The Brammo Empulse is tantalizingly close to my price range now. I only pay cash for vehicles, haven't had a car payment since 1983 and haven't had any debt at all since paying my mortgage off back in 2012, so I'm getting to the point where I can comfortably plunk down the cash for the Empulse, or I may get the Zero S instead. It isn't as stylish but has much better range. If and when I get one I'll come back to the forums here and give a report. |
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October 9th, 2015, 10:48 AM | #144 |
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October 9th, 2015, 11:57 AM | #145 | |
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October 9th, 2015, 12:28 PM | #146 |
Que Buenos Son!!!
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Well that's the price you pay for a "superior" technology. cough
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October 9th, 2015, 04:00 PM | #147 | |
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No doubt I'll own an EV in my lifetime, but I'm not a technology "early adopter." I want long-life, high power density, low cost batteries. The holy grail... |
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October 11th, 2015, 02:10 PM | #148 |
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