Ecotrons Install Thread

[choneofakind]

My opened intake lid is the pregen equivalent of removing the snorkel. It seems to work just fine. Go for it, might as well go for the high-flow panel filter as well.

[Red250R]

I already installed a K&N high flow a couple years ago

[setasai]

I'm actually considering putting the snorkel back in just for the hell of it. It sounds quieter. Plus with the stock exhaust, i'm not sure having the snorkel out would make much of a difference if at all.

An update for me... Just replaced the airbox back in and rerouted the tubing. I ended up mounting the pump horizontally to the airbox itself using a pretty hefty screw right through the plastic. Feels secure. Ran the fuel filter down into the right and comes out the left to the fuel rail. I like it so far. Took it out for a spin but didnt feel very different just yet.
@choneofakind Where can I get a screenshot/copy of your rich settings? Were they a few pages back? I remember you talking about it but I dont remember seeing it.

[choneofakind]

Brian, that's exactly what I did. Remember to mount the pump at enough of an angle that it's at least horizontal while the bike is on the side stand. Also, I used a second nut on the pump bracket to effectively jam/lock the clamp shut. I didn't want to have to open my air box back up again to tighten it if it came loose. 1000 miles later, no problems yet.

Check out my signature. There's a link to my blog. In the blog theres excel files posted so all you have to do is download it and import that to the RICH map table in ProCal.

Also, since you're in ECO mode anyways, try out the ignition angle map while your there. Get some learning time with that, then switch to rich mode. I think you'll like it. It advances the ignition to 41 degrees at the top end compared to 36. No pre-detonation, no higher octane fuel, but it runs better at the top.

[Red250R]

YES! Brand new regulator came in today. Popped it on quickly. Started her right up. Dead nuts at 48 psi. Sick nasty. Putting my darling back together then heading out for a little test ride. Thanks @n4mwd and @choneofakind. She revved perfectly. Not a single hesitation like before. We just may have a winner lol

[Red250R]

I was even gunna take a picture of the pressure gauge at 48 psi cuz i was so happy lol

[setasai]

Sweet... congratz!

Hey Chris, how's the blipping on your setup? I find that downshift blipping isnt as responsive as i'd like it. Granted I havent given it much low rpm learning time but even still... it feels a little laggy still. I do however like the airbox and top end power is pretty solid.

I'll give your maps a try.

[drphils87]

There is a one month time frame for returns. I'm just going to hold on to it and try again some other time.

Is there a simple test I could do to my regulator?

My starting issues are fixed, which you can see what happened on this thread. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...starter+clutch

[speedpro]

Wondering if someone could provide a bit of info for me. I have an Ecotrons kit for a 250 Ninja and am fitting it to a FZR250 which I have cut off cylinders 1&2. The TB drops straight in (who would have thought?) and the flywheel has a similar setup of four teeth and one pickup. What I'm not sure of it where the one long tooth is in relation to #1 TDC ignition compared to your Ninjas.

On the Yam the long tooth passes the pickup and then when the first short tooth is directly under the pickup #1 cylinder is at TDC ignition. The third short tooth is under the pickup 180 crankshaft degrees later and #2 is at TDC ignition. Is that the same sequence as on the Kawasaki 250?

I can spin it up on the dyno with the plugs out and use a timing light to check when the sparks are happening if I have to.

Appreciate any help with this.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by setasai

Sweet... congratz!

Hey Chris, how's the blipping on your setup? I find that downshift blipping isnt as responsive as i'd like it. Granted I havent given it much low rpm learning time but even still... it feels a little laggy still. I do however like the airbox and top end power is pretty solid.

I'll give your maps a try.

Feels just as good/better than a good carb setup. Are you using the updated CAL/A2L/S19 files that Matt sent out in Dec of 2012? I know that the throttle response was much better after that update (what I'm currently using) because he changed something with the ramp-in for the TPS so it responds quicker to throttle inputs.

Only oddity I've found is clutchless upshifts. I have to get completely (or almost completely) off the throttle for the engine to rev down. It's not significantly different than with carbs, but I've had to work on the timing with my hand and foot just a tad.

[setasai]

Soooo interesting revelations with the kit.

1) It does not autoadjust idle air sooooo if you go to lake tahoe or any other higher elevation, adjust it yourself or you'll be stalling everytime you pull the clutch in. Learned this the hard way. I turned the idle air screws 1 turn out earlier today and it idles "better" but still is unstable and will stall randomly at stops. Will probably turn it 1/2 more turn out and see if it's stable.

2) If you ride it in nevada desert and you have the fuel pump between the engine and the airbox... DO NOT TURN IT OFF... the gas will be stationary and you'll be forced to do an enroute disassembly of one of the tubes to drain the gas and reprime it. This issue does not currently have a solution other than move the pump... and I am going to hate it during my trip.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by setasai

Soooo interesting revelations with the kit.

1) It does not autoadjust idle air sooooo if you go to lake tahoe or any other higher elevation, adjust it yourself or you'll be stalling everytime you pull the clutch in. Learned this the hard way. I turned the idle air screws 1 turn out earlier today and it idles "better" but still is unstable and will stall randomly at stops. Will probably turn it 1/2 more turn out and see if it's stable.

2) If you ride it in nevada desert and you have the fuel pump between the engine and the airbox... DO NOT TURN IT OFF... the gas will be stationary and you'll be forced to do an enroute disassembly of one of the tubes to drain the gas and reprime it. This issue does not currently have a solution other than move the pump... and I am going to hate it during my trip.

what was your idle rpm set at?

did you switch on and off in the middle of the route?

by stationary do you mean it the pump stalls, or there is no pressure because the fuel forms bubbles due to the engine heat?

[n4mwd]

I think he's talking about fuel pump cavitation due to heat from stationary gas causing bubbles. Since the bubbles can't really go forward, they have to go backwards up the inlet tube. If its not routed with a perfect upward slope, even when on the kickstand, bubbles can get trapped.

Solution is to better route the tubes. Also, having a test port to prime with will get you going again, but its not pretty.

[setasai]

Idle RPM set at whatever stock is. I'm guessing 1500rpms.

Yup, fuel pump cavitation is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm going to attempt to wrap it in heatshrink wrap since the hotel happens to be nearby an o'reillys and then also try to angle the pump inlet more upwards. Not sure if i'll be able to do that considering the space I have.

[n4mwd]

Mine is perpendicular to the bike with the outlet on the left side. That way its still lower than the inlet when the bike is on the kickstand.

[choneofakind]

Brian, do you have your computer on you? As you change elevation, adjust the Global Enrichment Factor. That's what I mentioned in a previous post about 'rejetting' the open loop fuel injection.

Also, give Aluminum foil a try to make a little "shield" for your fuel pump if nothing else works.

As for angling the pump, I think I need to angle mine more. It felt a little funny at the track on one long, fast left-hander. Ideally, you'd have it vertical so the inlet is always above the exit.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Brian, do you have your computer on you? As you change elevation, adjust the Global Enrichment Factor. That's what I mentioned in a previous post about 'rejetting' the open loop fuel injection.

Also, give Aluminum foil a try to make a little "shield" for your fuel pump if nothing else works.

As for angling the pump, I think I need to angle mine more. It felt a little funny at the track on one long, fast left-hander. Ideally, you'd have it vertical so the inlet is always above the exit.

Where can I find the global enrichment factor and which direction would I adjust it? I do have my computer but matt suggested to adjust the idle air screws which has helped but is not stable. Can you explain your logic with the enrichment factor?


Also I just rerouted the tubing except opposite of what you guys suggested. basically I have it angled so the fuel rail tube side is on top. I tried the other way but the bubbles filled the fuel filter and made it worse. This way the bubbles always gets pushed out through the regulator. Any air before the pump goes out the bubbler line. Let's see how this works tomorrow

[choneofakind]

Global Enrichment Factor can be found in the table in the attached picture. You'll want to make it a smaller decimal in order to reduce the amount of fuel added. I'd start with 0.95 or so.

My thought is this: the enrichment factor controls the fuel level over the entire operation of the system (according to the tuning manual). It's basically the built in quick-n-dirty way to get the engine to start the first time if it doesn't work right when you install it. However, since you're up in the mountains and the air is thin, you're going to have too much fuel everywhere, which from my experiences, means that your idle is low, it's a pain to start, less good performance everywhere else than it should have; aka, you're rich all over.

So in theory, if you change locations/altitudes, adjusting the Global factor should get it relatively close enough that it works. I know since I'm in RICH mode all the time, it will be a requirement for me if I ever move, but I'm not sure how that works in ECO mode tbh.

[setasai]

Oh ok. Tried it out but it didn't seem to help or do anything.

Anyways, still wierd with the cavitation issues. I moved the pump to the side and it's practically vertical. The bubbles don't go up they go backwards into the fuel filter. I wonder how I can avoid that. Right now I have the pump vertical with the fuel rail side on top. Should I flip the pump so it's pointing downwards?

Also, any other ideas on the idling? Right now it doesn't quite stall but it gets damn close and fluctuates between 300rpm and 1200rpm.
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[n4mwd]

The pump should be mounted so the output is lower than the input. The gerotor gears in the pump are at the output end so mounting it the other way will make cavitation worse. The extreme mounting method would be to mount verically with the output at the bottom. But if the hose going to the input isn't sloped properly, bubbles will get trapped there as well.

There also seems to be a little check valve in the pump output so the fuel rail will remain pressurized when the pump is off. This basically makes it next to impossible for a bubble to get past that when the pump is off. If there is a bubble in the gerotor, then the pump wont move anything so the bubble stays trapped there.

[setasai]

That's all fine and dandy but the bubbles dont stay trapped regardless. It actually flows backwards through the fuel filter and back into the tank. So basically I cant start the engine until the bubbles finish escaping. Once that happens... usually a few minutes till it cools down... the fuel filter fills back up on it's own and the line completely fills with fuel again. All is well once that happens. It's just wierd that it doesnt go through the bubbler line instead.

[speedpro]

I've seen similar odd things when the fuel tank vent was inadequate or blocked. Problem would occur and then correct itself over a short period of time. Next time it happens open the tank and see if the bubbles disappear from the lines.

[choneofakind]

Hmmm, that's strange. Is your bubbler above the input above the output? I've never had my bubbles spit into my input line and into the filter...

[speedpro]

If possible I still need an answer to the question above. I have made some progress with a little problem I had where the fuel pump would not start at power on. I've had to isolate the ECU case from chassis ground so that with the earth from battery -ve connected the fuel pump still started. Has anyone else had that problem? It does seem a bit strange to need to do that and I can't find in any of the manuals where it says you need to.

[n4mwd]

The ecotrons ECU has a failover mechanism that turns off the fuel pump if you make 5 or so attempts with no start. So if you turn the key on and off a bunch of times, the ECU will not turn on the pump. There is a special way to reset the ECU by unplugging it, but I don't remember exactly how.

When I installed mine, I bypassed the relay and forced it to run continuously until primed. That way, the first actual start with the relay installed just fired right up.

[choneofakind]

^^ Sure about that? When I got stranded, I definitely made more than 5 attempts. Then it sat for about 5-10 minutes. I jumped it, and it started right up. The pump has always turned out when I cycle the key or hit the starter.

[n4mwd]

That's what Matt said. You may have changed the variable to a higher number when you edited your CAL file.

So how come you got stranded? That is the first I heard about it. What was the problem?

[choneofakind]

That makes more sense then. No, I haven't come across that in ProCal yet I don't think. I should go double check on different variables to make sure I haven't accidentally changed that.

This was a while back. Like in May: When I had both O2 sensors plugged in, my electrical load was almost using all the spare power from the stator. Basically, it would charge really slowly. Combine this with the fact that I think my battery is a little weak and that I made 6 quick stops within a very short time that day, and voila, I didn't have the required voltage to start. As soon as a jumped it from a good battery, it started right up perfectly. That's a big part of why I removed the O2 sensors and went into open-loop mode as soon as I had enough learning time for the engine to run smoothly.

For all I know, my stator may also be a little weak since it's an older bike with about 20k on the clock. For now, I have a system that works reliably. I've tested it by starting, riding a 3 mile loop, shutting it off, letting it sit 10 minutes, and doing it again. 6 loops and no problems. I'm happy with that.

[lgk]

when you pull the battery the counter resets.

[n4mwd]

Just a hint. If your battery drains to the point that it can't start the bike, but still has enough power to crank. Try push starting it. Without the starter to lower the voltage of the battery, it is usually enough to run the ECU. The trick is to get it into high gear. That goes for non-efi bikes as well.

[choneofakind]

I'll try that. I've not yet tried to start my bike by bump starting with the fuel injection. I've also never been able to push it fast enough to get into 2nd. Positive neutral finder. But I know it will bump start in 1st with carbs

[n4mwd]

I could never get it to bump start in first. Put it on the center stand and rotate the wheel by hand in neutral and then pop it into 2nd. It helps if someone else is holding the clutch in, but if alone, a stiff wire will work.

Oh, yeah, another tip. When jumping from a car, key on, transmission neutral, touch the positive jumper cable to the electrical nut on the starter rather than the battery. This only works if there is enough current in the battery to power the ECU. The advantage is that you don't have to take the seat off, and you don't have to argue with them about turning the car off (with this method the car can be left running). Ground goes to the rearset. Unless you have bike jumper cables, the giant automotive kind are difficult to connect to the battery if you did it that way.

[choneofakind]

Giant automotive kind hooked up to the car of a mechanic who understands the difference between battery output and alternator output worked just fine He totally understood when I metioned diodes and 12V max, not the higher output of the alternator of a running engine.

[MFNcody]

I recently saw the post about how much additional load the new EFI components puts on the charging system. I'm wondering can anything be done to increase the capacity of the charging system? I see 'electrosport' on ebay sells new stators that could increase output but they don't specifically claim any higher amperage. Anyone have thoughts on this?

EDIT: adding a link that answered my question mostly
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Alternator_Information

[n4mwd]

I've seen other posts by other people claiming that the aftermarket stators don't last very long. Considering how much work you have to do to change it, I didn't want to bother. I think the newgens make a little more power and its possible that the European EFI newgen may make even more.

I don't recall anyone with an ecotrons efi newgen complaining about power problems. But a few of us with pregens have. Rather than installing a new stator, the consensus seems to be to install lower power lighting such as LED's and HIDs. And also doing the obvious, such as taking your hand off the brake at a stop if you don't absolutely need it.

[choneofakind]

Newgen stator definitely makes more power than the pregen stator. I read that the EU-spec newgen stator also make more power than the US-spec newgen. Haven't read anywhere about newgens having power consumption problems.

Honestly, removing the O2 sensors and going to open loop mode made more significant difference than changing to an HID headlight. This will only cause problems if you plan to do cross-country trips, as the kit does not have any way of temporarily adjusting for the air density (weather/elevation changes).

[speedpro]

I have some electrical and electronic knowledge and 120W to run a twin cylinder bike seems excessive. That being the case I reckon there will be a greater overhead available for accessories, or fuel injection. I really don't see an issue with installing the EFI. The pump is small, the injectors only draw small amounts for very short periods, and the ECU uses dwell control on the ignition coil inputs so even though they draw a bit when "on", the average doesn't add to much. Total current draw "peak" maybe but I'd expect the average to be 50-60W max. Permanent "on" headlights would add to that of course.

[lgk]

The heating element on the o2 sensors probably use the most power but they should turn off after the exhaust gets hot.

If for some reason it doesn't, (rain, etc), then it'll use a ton of power.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by speedpro

I have some electrical and electronic knowledge and 120W to run a twin cylinder bike seems excessive. That being the case I reckon there will be a greater overhead available for accessories, or fuel injection. I really don't see an issue with installing the EFI. The pump is small, the injectors only draw small amounts for very short periods, and the ECU uses dwell control on the ignition coil inputs so even though they draw a bit when "on", the average doesn't add to much. Total current draw "peak" maybe but I'd expect the average to be 50-60W max. Permanent "on" headlights would add to that of course.

Here in the US, the headlights and tail lights are all permanent on. That's about 80W right there. Brake lights add another 25-30 watts. EFI takes about 20 watts with the fuel pump being the biggest drain.

While the bike is at speed, its not an issue. The problem is when its idling and isn't generating enough power for all that stuff. So its draining the battery at a stop light. When the battery gets low enough, the EFI starts acting up.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Honestly, removing the O2 sensors and going to open loop mode made more significant difference than changing to an HID headlight. This will only cause problems if you plan to do cross-country trips, as the kit does not have any way of temporarily adjusting for the air density (weather/elevation changes).

The O2 sensors cant compensate for the amount of elevation change that I did on my trip. From starting at sea level up to 9500ft, I couldnt keep the bike from stalling on idle even with the idle air screws all the way out. Matt suggested I should open up the throttle plate but that wasnt feasable while traveling so I just left it.

What made the most difference and kept the bike "relatively" reliable at high elevations was idle air screws all the way out and idle speed set at 2200rpm. I also changed the decel fuel cutoff to 3000rpm. Not sure if that did anything but I was able to survive the trip much more comfortably after changing those things.

Just something to keep in mind. I do think the O2 sensors are nice though because after the flash, you have to allow it to relearn everything or else response is laggy and weak power.

Side note:
I'm thinking of swapping out the throttle plate screw with something similar to the carbs. A thumb screw and a spring to keep it in place for easy adjustment when necessary. I'm also considering glueing a small piece of oval metal to the slots on the idle screws so that the whole thing is adjustable by hand. This would make it very very easy to change while traveling. Quick twist until idle stabilizes and you'll be ready to go.