Bike not wanting to rev past ~5k while driving

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Cleaning my engine parts right now and I gave WD 40 a shot after trying degreasers and brake cleaner. I must say it is the best thing by far to clean carbon off! My valves appear to be perfectly fine as well as the seats I hope this was just a case of carbon buildup possibly from installing a radiator fan switch and running it too often?

I will do the flashlight/fuel in the valve tunnels later. Is fuel necessary or is water fine?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

....... Is fuel necessary or is water fine?

WD-40 would work.

Did you find any sign of damage or leak in the head gasket?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

WD-40 would work.

Did you find any sign of damage or leak in the head gasket?

No when I ran the leak down test air shot out at high pressure out of the vacuum line from the petcock while at TDC. When I plugged the line w/ my finger the leak test ran good.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Ok both cylinders leak WD40 out of both ports with the valves seated........ Is there an acceptable amount of leaking? I couldn't imagine all the valves being bad

I let the WD40 sit in the ports for about an hour and when i opened the valves a ton of it spilled out......so it does hold but there is a very tiny leak in all the valves..... I will lap them once more to see if it helps

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Took the head to the bike shop and the mech there said I just need to lap more. He also said it is possible the head got warped and might need to be machined (worst case scenario). I didn't lap enough of the carbon off. He said the valves will always leak fluid fyi so that test will find major leaks but it leaking slowly is not an issue.

[Motofool]

Engine Rebuilders, close to Okeechobee Blvd. and I-95, could verify how flat the head is, probably for free.

They did a great job with the valves of my car.

http://local.yahoo.com/info-14365783...est-palm-beach

[coughing skunk]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

Took the head to the bike shop and the mech there said I just need to lap more. He also said it is possible the head got warped and might need to be machined (worst case scenario). I didn't lap enough of the carbon off. He said the valves will always leak fluid fyi so that test will find major leaks but it leaking slowly is not an issue.

Properly lapped and seated valves should never leak fluid. Air is a fluid too..

[Jiggles]

Air is a gas

[coughing skunk]

Air is a gas. Gas is a fluid. Liquid is a fluid. Gas is not a liquid. I've got a bachelors in physics among other things and have done tooooo many fluid flow problems to let this one slide.

Man don't I hate quoting wikipedia, but here.

"Although the term "fluid" includes both the liquid and gas phases, in common usage, "fluid" is often used as a synonym for "liquid", with no implication that gas could also be present. For example, "brake fluid" is hydraulic oil and will not perform its required function if there is gas in it. This colloquial usage of the term is also common in medicine and in nutrition ("take plenty of fluids")."

[Jiggles]

I haven't had a physics course in a few semesters, I was confusing fluid with liquid

[coughing skunk]

Jiggles, no sweat but now we can use this as a perfect example as to why the valves should leak NO fluid when closed in order to obtain the best compression.

Quick physics lesson. Pressure = Force per unit Area (Pressure=Force/Area). This can be re written as the Force applied is equal to Pressure times the Area or Force = Pressure*Area. In the case of the internals of a combustion chamber we can assume (for simplicity among other things) that the Area doesn't change much throughout the stroke of the piston. The compressed gas/air mixture creates higher Pressure which creates a greater Force on the walls/valve seals/rings of the combustion chamber due to the direct relationship between the two. You better believe that energy takes the path of least resistance, and if there is a way for that gas/air mixture to get out of that chamber it will.

The leak test that FvnnyL3tt3r1ng has done showed that under atmospheric pressure (~14.7 psi) the valves leaked fluid. If we ramp up the pressure to say 150 psi, the expected pressure in the combustion chamber, then there is roughly 10 times the force applied. The fluid at 150 psi would try to get out of the chamber that much faster, quickly reducing the internal pressure.

Apply all of this to the gaseous mixture inside the combustion chamber and you should be able to see why the valve should not leak ANY fluid when closed in order to retain pressure during the compression stroke.

Can I go home from work yet??

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I'm not disagreeing with any of this theory but I'd really like to see someone's bike that was running well put their heads run under a leak test of this type to see the actual results.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

So when my new gaskets come in how do I ensure they seat and NEVER have issues? Tons of gasket maker? Anyone have recommendations for a brand/type?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I am in the process of installing the valves, more specifically the collets (keepers). My valve spring compressor tool is a cheapie so I was wondering if anyone had any tips to install them. Also, are the collets supposed to end up below the valve stem, flush with it, or above them?

Edit: Ok I see now the collets are going to sit above the stem but they seem to be fitting too easily.....Not sure if they are seated properly

Edit 2: I just installed them all and checked it with a pistol chamber flashlight (pistol cleaning gear comes in handy for engine work!) and all the grooves have seated on the valve stems. There was absolutely no reason to buy a valve spring compressor. Just as an FYI the collets (keepers) go in pretty easily. I was thinking i needed to compress the springs quite a bit but that is not the case at all.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I know I am sort of talking to myself but this is a good learning experience and hopefully it will be beneficial to others.

I just realized something. When I drained my coolant to start the engine teardown, my coolant had changed colors. I use the dex coolant which is orange and the coolant at its present state is pinkish. What does this mean???

When the head gasket blows the fuel mixes with the coolant which explains the change in color.... I do believe I am right on this.... It would make perfect sense because both cylinders had low compression all of a sudden, so the issue had to be something in common with both of them, which the head gasket is.

Thoughts?

I do have a rusty fuel tank maybe this made the effect more drastic?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I just put new coolant in a couple months ago. Can you guess which one came out of my bike?



The fuel line after sitting just a couple days:



Head gasket front and back:

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

I know I am sort of talking to myself but this is a good learning experience and hopefully it will be beneficial to others.

Sorry, I am following the thread and admiring your persistence.

It is just that you ask some tough questions........

You would be able to see the trace of coolant on the face of the old gasket, if there was a leak.

At the same time, you should see some oil floating on the surface of the coolant.

Sudden and strong overheating is the most common cause of a blown head gasket and a twisted head.

Your gasket seems in good condition to me.

Your cooling system may have some accumulated rust from previous neglected times before you owned the bike (after a couple of years the coolant looses properties and starts corroding internal parts).

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry, I am following the thread and admiring your persistence.

It is just that you ask some tough questions........

You would be able to see the trace of coolant on the face of the old gasket, if there was a leak.

At the same time, you should see some oil floating on the surface of the coolant.

Sudden and strong overheating is the most common cause of a blown head gasket and a twisted head.

Your gasket seems in good condition to me.

Your cooling system may have some accumulated rust from previous neglected times before you owned the bike (after a couple of years the coolant looses properties and start corroding internal parts).

I just replaced the coolant a couple of months ago and did a (unnecessary) flush before that. Thoughts?

Edit: I put a speed square against the head and it was flush.... Not sure if this is valid but that lets me feel a little more comfortable in my belief the head isn't warped....

[Motofool]

I don't think that the square will tell you.

You need a perfectly flat surface and some gauge feelers or dial.

That is why I recommended that machine shop some posts above.

Regarding the color change, I don't know, other than rust coming from the pump's impeller.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I don't think that the square will tell you.

You need a perfectly flat surface and some gauge feelers or dial.

That is why I recommended that machine shop some posts above.

Regarding the color change, I don't know, other than rust coming from the pump's impeller.

Ok.

It's possible the leakdown test didn't have enough pressure or didn't indicate a leak from the head because I listened for it but not much else in that area.

As far as the impeller I remember when I first swapped coolant the color remained constant from what I remember and I would imagine the rust would break loose/mix fairly quickly if it was present. I will keep it in mind though.

Well based on everything that's going on right now with me I think I will throw the bike together once the parts come in and see what happens (optimistic that it will run now) and if the problem persists I will have to take a breather from this for a little bit until I have more time to tinker around with it (thinking to myself WHAT THE HELL COULD IT BE!!??). Maybe even (do I dare say it) have the shop take a look at it.

At the least this was a great learning experience and I really appreciate all the support from everyone that gave their 2 cents!

I'll be doing my raindance in the meantime.

[coughing skunk]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

So when my new gaskets come in how do I ensure they seat and NEVER have issues? Tons of gasket maker? Anyone have recommendations for a brand/type?

Well. You can help prevent gasket leaks by using gasket maker/sealer/whatever, but really the best way to ensure there are no leaks is to completely clean both surfaces, make sure both surfaces are completely flat as Motofool stated and to re-torque the bolts in the correct pattern. Most importantly is patients, you don't want to rip one of the gaskets and have to order a new one.

I use Yamabond on the XS just cause, and I have threebond 1194 for the scooters and such. Both do a nice job.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

New block and head gasket getting delivered today. Wish me luck!

[Motofool]

Best luck, Justin !!!!

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Ok, so a problem came up that I thought would be fairly easy to solve but isn't. I dropped one of the rocker arms down the chain funnel and it is nowhere to be found. I dropped the oil filter and it seems there is no passage big enough for it to fall through, so it is somewhere around the bottom cam chain gear. I stuck my finger in the oil filler area and didn't feel anything. Any ideas? Can i open the clutch cover?

The cam chain spins freely so it must be underneath it....

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

took the bolts off clutch cover but it doesnt budge...am i missing something?

Edit: Gonna wait on the clutch cover because i don't have a replacement gasket..... Does anyone know if the bottom cam chain gear is located in the crankcase? I believe thats where my little friend will be....

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

took the bolts off clutch cover but it doesnt budge...am i missing something?

Gently tap the cover in all directions with a rubber mallet, after the clutch cable has been disconnected.

Oil filter sucks from gear box and supplies oil ducts, nothing to look for there.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Gently tap the cover in all directions with a rubber mallet, after the clutch cable has been disconnected.

Oil filter sucks from gear box and supplies oil ducts, nothing to look for there.

My little friend was laying down under the clutch.

I now have the camshaft caps on and as I rotated the engine the chain kept popping. I took the tensioner out and the chain still pops, just with more slack now. Any ideas??? Do I have to put the front chain guide in a certain position?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

My little friend was laying down under the clutch.

I now have the camshaft caps on and as I rotated the engine the chain kept popping. I took the tensioner out and the chain still pops, just with more slack now. Any ideas??? Do I have to put the front chain guide in a certain position?

I took the cams out and put them back in with the correct timing and also put the tensioner out and then back in and the chain skipped again.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

..........put the tensioner out and then back in and the chain skipped again.

Justin,

The tensioner is not working properly, the plunge cannot come back up against the spring, it is a one-way mechanism.

Sometimes, lubrication is all it needs; sometimes the balls are not jamming the plunge strongly enough.

The guides have nothing to do with this problem.

Check these links:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cam_cha...sioner_removal

http://forums.ninja250.org/posting.p...&t=87142&tro=1

http://forums.ninja250.org/posting.p...&t=87061&tro=1

http://forums.ninja250.org/posting.p...&t=85353&tro=1

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Thanks, in the meantime I found out the chain was loose because the lower chain guide piece the tensioner pushes on was being stubborn.

Right now I am having valve clearance issues. I suspect this is because the cam caps were over torqued so after I fish out some more parts I dropped down the chain tunnel I will work on that.....

[Motofool]

You are welcome.

Be careful with the cam caps, they must go back in the exact position they have been (they are machined after they are assembled and torqued down to specs).

The sequence and value of torque on the bolts is very important to avoid gripped journals.

Don't dismay, you are almost rolling again!!

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I really hope my valve keepers are seated properly!!!!!

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are welcome.

Be careful with the cam caps, they must go back in the exact position they have been (they are machined after they are assembled and torqued down to specs).

The sequence and value of torque on the bolts is very important to avoid gripped journals.

Don't dismay, you are almost rolling again!!

I was able to turn the flywheel bolt over many revolutions after I got everything on but now when i go a half revolution each way it just locks up...... My tension is way loose since I have everything off though.........

Even when I hold the chain taught it's like the clutch stops everything....

[Motofool]

I don't know what is happening, but I know that the crankshaft should only be rotated in the normal working direction, never backwards.

Don't force things, it may be worth loosing all the valves and rechecking those valve's keepers, just in case the cams are being jammed against the rockers for some reason.

"We never have time to do it right the first time, but we always find time to come back and fix it", one of my wise mentors used to say.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Well I took the cams out so the only thing left in the equation is the bottom cam chain sprocket and it's connections (clutch)

[Motofool]

There is nothing down there to be jammed but something else that may have fallen between the sprocket and the chain.

There is a big nut to loose in order to take the clutch basket out.

Stupid question: are you sure that the gears are in neutral?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is nothing down there to be jammed but something else that may have fallen between the sprocket and the chain.

There is a big nut to loose in order to take the clutch basket out.

Stupid question: are you sure that the gears are in neutral?

Yeah it was in neutral but I put it in first then back in neutral to be sure...

What happens when you rotate the flywheel the wrong direction??? Is it an electrical issue? Reverse current from the generator?

[Motofool]

Not sure, but that is recommended in several manuals for different bikes.

For one thing, the tension-slack portions of the cam chain get reversed.

Is it possible that the chain is getting hooked somewhere in the well if the camshafts are out?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Not sure, but that is recommended in several manuals for different bikes.

For one thing, the tension-slack portions of the cam chain get reversed.

Is it possible that the chain is getting hooked somewhere in the well if the camshafts are out?

I don't think so because I am holding the chain taught and checked to see that that was adequate with the clutch cover off....

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

New gaskets from kneedraggers, compare them to the old one I posted.