250R NA Build - Ultimate

[Racer x]

Are the cam marks point away from each other and level with the head?

I had an engine that a shop had put the cam lines facing each other. And paint marked them. The engine would not start. I changed the cams around and it started. Did you by any chance mix up the cams. I don't know what that would do. I feel your pain here

[mgentz]

the cam sprockets were removed by Web. I noted which sprocket and cam went where on paper before sending them out. when they came back, the sprockets no longer had their marks BUT the sprockets were made to only fit one cam (i.e. they will not fit on the other!). From there, I lined up the cams per the manual.

yes, the marks are level with the head and facing away from each other.

[Racer x]

could the ignition pick up be mounted incorrectly? I am pulling at straws.

[mgentz]

I never took it off!

Do I need the new head gasket?

[Racer x]

The real answer is yes. But I just clean them off and re use them. I am only riding a mile though.
My secret thing is to use a scotch bright and clean the head gasket and base gasket. Then spray both sides with copper gasket spray. I let that dry befor using it.

[mgentz]

That's ok. I haven't ridden anywhere.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

That's ok. I haven't ridden anywhere.

Mike. When you found TDC did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator?

You get a few degrees of crankshaft rotation with the piston staying the same height.

If you had to check you P/V clearance then you gonna need a new gasket, same if you pull the head off after being torqued. Just like x said, make sure the gasket surface is completely dry. I know professional engine assemblers that use copper spray gasket on 2000 hp deisels. It works for them so it gonna work for the ninja, not a substitute for an actual gasket but.

[tubarney]

if you used a dial indicator or the marks on the flywheel your cam timing is off.

You need a piston stop and a degree wheel.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Are the cam marks point away from each other and level with the head?

I had an engine that a shop had put the cam lines facing each other. And paint marked them. The engine would not start. I changed the cams around and it started. Did you by any chance mix up the cams. I don't know what that would do. I feel your pain here

you can tell which cam is which by looking at where the bolts holes are. The ends are different, they only face away from each other when they are installed the correct way.

Also Mike, if you pull your head off, check that there is no play where the bolts go that could be causing sprockets to mis-align with the cam.

I hope you get it started. Good luck.

[tubarney]

here's how the cams look when they are installed the correct way. Unless web want to make things hard they would have made the ends like the stock ones.

You can see one end is completely round(intake) and the exhaust is not.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

@tubarney how is your build coming along?

quick update. Block being installed tomo, I need to find TDC and check P/V clearance so its gonna be a couple days till I get it ready.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by tubarney

Mike. When you found TDC did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator?

You get a few degrees of crankshaft rotation with the piston staying the same height.

If you had to check you P/V clearance then you gonna need a new gasket, same if you pull the head off after being torqued. Just like x said, make sure the gasket surface is completely dry. I know professional engine assemblers that use copper spray gasket on 2000 hp deisels. It works for them so it gonna work for the ninja, not a substitute for an actual gasket but.

So if I spray copper gasket on my gasket I can reuse it?

[mgentz]

I pulled the head last night and checked tdc again with the dial and it aligns to the mark on the flywheel. Considering the amount of movement necessary to be off by one tooth this should be more than sufficient. Best I can tell so far is that there was too much oil in the cylinder. I cleaned them out completely.

Tonight I might reassemble....I will still clean the carbs....again.

I should mention that when checking for top dead center using the dial indicator I came at it from both directions so that I would know where true top dead center was.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

So if I spray copper gasket on my gasket I can reuse it?

Sort of a delicate subject. Some will say yes others no. I think most people use it as extra protection for a new gasket. I was contemplating using the same gasket after checking P/V clearance because some will say you can use a gasket that has been through a torque cycle, just not a heat cycle. The guys that did my head said I could re-use it. Anyway I chose not to risk it over 50 dollars, depends on your circumstance I guess. Like I said before, sort of an iffy subject

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I pulled the head last night and checked tdc again with the dial and it aligns to the mark on the flywheel. Considering the amount of movement necessary to be off by one tooth this should be more than sufficient. Best I can tell so far is that there was too much oil in the cylinder. I cleaned them out completely.

Tonight I might reassemble....I will still clean the carbs....again.

I should mention that when checking for top dead center using the dial indicator I came at it from both directions so that I would know where true top dead center was.

I was sort of thinking that the gap between teeth should make those methods reliable, I'm really just trying to give you some ideas as to what it might be.

All the best with the assembly tonight, hope it goes well.

And with using copper gasket. To be honest, I think you would be fine but I really don't know because I haven't tried it before.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by mgentz

So if I spray copper gasket on my gasket I can reuse it?

You need to really clean the gasket. Scrub it with break clean ad a scotch bright. Then coat the gasket both sides. Like you are spray painting it. Then let it dry. That is not as good as a new gasket. But it has worked OK so far.

[mgentz]

I will get a new one then. I'm with tubarney on this one...no sense in risking it.

UPDATE:

So i bought two new ones....just in case. But this will delay me another week. Anything I could check in the meantime?

Now that I'm not under the gun I'm going to throw some modeling clay in the cylinders and double check the P/V clearances with the "old" gasket. The valve clearances have been triple checked now and they are good. I also looked at both the pistons and valves and neither have marks from contact so that is good.

NOTE TO OTHERS: Once you're done fitting the pistons into the cylinder, clean the oil ALL out! Even though the service manual says to leave the pistons lubricated liberally. I still think this is/was my issue.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by mgentz

So if I spray copper gasket on my gasket I can reuse it?

Nothing good has ever come from using used head gaskets in my expeirience.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Nothing good has ever come from using used head gaskets in my expeirience.

That's why I questioned it. However, Racer X says he has been doing it without issue. For me, there is no sense risking thousands of dollars for a $25 gasket.

Back to the drawing board folks! I will have this #&%$# thing running within two weeks! I am dying to ride it.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by mgentz

That's why I questioned it. However, Racer X says he has been doing it without issue. For me, there is no sense risking thousands of dollars for a $25 gasket.

Back to the drawing board folks! I will have this #&%$# thing running within two weeks! I am dying to ride it.

I said you Should replace the gasket.
But I put a used head gasket in my current motor. Just to get through my first race. Four races and 60 nitrous pulls later it is still in there. I don't really recommend using old gaskets.

[gt_turbo]

You still have time. The weather in mke is just starting to get warmer. It's a late start to riding season this year.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

You still have time. The weather in mke is just starting to get warmer. It's a late start to riding season this year.

very true sir. but on those 60 degree days it hurts.

[choneofakind]

I'm at school and I'm almost 3 hours from home. The Ninja stays at home because there's no fun roads out here, there's no protected parking, and it's constantly windy enough to knock the bike over in the parking lots. I only am able to ride on the nice days from 3 months of the year; half of May, June, July, and half of August.

I know exactly how you feel.

[Racer x]

Maybe I should think twice about moving to Ohio.

[choneofakind]

Nah, before I was at college, I was able to ride for a good 7-8 months on fun roads through the parks. The only thing that sucks about being in the NW corner of OH is that it's all flat and boring.

SE OH is absolutely beautiful with all the hills and woods.

[gt_turbo]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Maybe I should think twice about moving to Ohio.

i was out in DC/Baltimore last weekend. 75-80 degs and sunny. so many bikes and few ninjette sightings. i was so jealous.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

i was out in DC/Baltimore last weekend. 75-80 degs and sunny. so many bikes and few ninjette sightings. i was so jealous.

And you didn't stop by?

[gt_turbo]

it was more like flying through BWI en route to DC. so actual time in Baltimore was less than an hour. next time for sure. would love to see the world's fastest ninjette in person.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I will have this #&%$# thing running within two weeks! I am dying to ride it.

I know exactly how you feel. It's been sunshine and 75F here all week.

This assembly has been interesting to say the least. The transmission wanted to stuff around for 5 hours and 7 attempts later until it finally went together correctly without me doing anything different, wtf! Then I glued the crank to the case and had to reseal the cases, that was fun.

Its going to take me another 2 weeks to because now I need new rings and I have to order them from the US. All because of 1 ring. Will teach me to be a tight ass and not buy a ring expander tool.

I guess I'm learning a few lessons on how not to f*** things up. I'm sure next time it will go a lot smoother though.

[Racer x]

The only people that don't make mistakes. Are people that don't do anything.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Racer x

The only people that don't make mistakes. Are people that don't do anything.

you know what the worst part for me is? It wouldn't start so I pulled the damn thing apart 2 times only to find that everything I did was right! I still think that it has to do with the oil in the cylinders. tubarney make sure you clean those things out after assembly!

otherwise, keep going and take your time. it will go together just fine.

[cuong-nutz]

My gaskets should be in today, but I doubt I will have the time to install the motor and start it up. The only thing I have on the cylinders are just assembly lube. from when I installed the pistons. I don't see how oil on the cylinders would stop your bike from starting.

[mgentz]

plugs dont fire in oil. the oil mist that you get from worn rings or leaking seals is not very much and it is mixing in an already established and hostile environment.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by mgentz

plugs dont fire in oil. the oil mist that you get from worn rings or leaking seals is not very much and it is mixing in an already established and hostile environment.

Did you try and bump/push start it?

The rings are their way. Should have them end of next week. Its pretty amazing when you can get parts from California to western Sydney in only 6 days. Cost a bit, but at this point I'm willing do to just about anything to get back on the road before winter hits. It only drops to 50F here in winter but its still not ideal for starting a cold engine. I would prefer a 100F summer day.

[tubarney]

If your wondering how much my build cost it was the same if I was to upgrade to a 300. Only my 250 is quicker.

I could of sold my 250 for $5000 second hand with all my mods and 6000 miles, 300 are $7500 brand new.

But if I bought a stock 300 I would loose all my mods and have to spend more money getting an exhaust and or things like rearsets,clip-ons,brake lines,suspension,tires to name a few.

So i decided to spend the $2500 on my 250.

Head - $900 - 700 for porting, 200 for valve seats and new guides
Pistons - $300
Cams - $400
Fresh crosshatch in bores - $30
Balance crankshaft - $400 - Would have been $200 if I didn't knife edge it.
Micro-polishing crankshaft - $100

Thats comes to $2100. Plus $300 for bearings and gaskets.

Now I have a brand new 250cc engine for the same as a stock 300. Only mine has better everything and is faster.

If I was to buy a 300 then put an exhaust for 800 I could get more hp but for another 1500 I could turbo this thing using a 300 fuel injection system, so either way upgrading to a 300 is stupid is stupid if you have spent money on your 250 that you will not get back when you sell it.

Also this is my second engine. Its going to be something special. The engine cost me 300 for the complete engine. Its a 2008. I got it from Paul at wet4uracing. It starts and runs.

[NewbieNinja]

You forgot about the farkles!! Digital gauges and stuff too.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by NewbieNinja

You forgot about the farkles!! Digital gauges and stuff too.

Yes, these to. There's too much to mention really. I had done a fair bit of modding before I even started with the engine. I think all up I spent around 4-5 thousand on mods before I started stuffing around with the internals of the engine. The only thing that is stock on my ninja is the rear suspension. I will get to that at some point.

Thats the main reason I didn't upgrade. The money spent was the same, I just didn't want to loose all the mods and upgrades I have made, only to have to start from scratch again. At least in Aus, you won't get your money back for extras when you sell it. Plus I finally have my ninja at a point where I am actually extremely happy with the set-up.

Yes a 300 has a slipper clutch, but if you need one on a 250 you don't know how to downshift or brake, also I don't want abs and I would remove it anyway because I go to the track quite often, plus I learnt how to use the brakes.

If your wondering why I didn't turbo mine now. It is because with my current motorcycle license and some strict laws over in Aus I can't ride a turbo and it would be too obvious for me to do so. I have to wait a year before I get off restrictions(3 years of this crap). In the meantime I will slowly put this thing together and install it when it is legal for me to do so. Its going to be a while before anything happens to this one.

Right now I'm focusing on the 1 I'm rebuilding now.

[vanman69]

you only on your Ls mate? you doing a front end swap? any special fairings or anything?

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by vanman69

you only on your Ls mate? you doing a front end swap? any special fairings or anything?

Sort of, I've upgraded to my p's nearly a year ago. I have to go through my greens but so I have another 2 years. NSW sucks balls. I've been riding dirt bikes regularly for over 10 years now, I currently have a 2008 CRF 450X, only been on the road for 2 years now.

The ninja is a 2010 special edition, it will have around 150kw/tonne power to weight. Same as a $90 000 v8 Holden Commodore 325.

I bought the second engine because I don't want to have to take my bike off the road in order to do mods, I can take my time and slowly get things done when I have time and money.

I won't be starting that build for a while yet so I'm going to put the engine in the shed for now.

The bike mods before the engine work included:
2 bros exhausts
CR carbs
Race Tech Emulators, Springs
Sato Pre-load adjusters
Fender Eliminator
Proton Flushmount Indicators, Led rear indicators, Led Brake light
Sato Rearsets ( My favourite Mod)
Woodcraft clip-ons
Pazzo Levers
D.I.D erv3 chain
Supersprox sprockets, different gearing 14/45
Braided brake lines
Ferodo brake pads
Pirelli diabllo rosso II
Koso x2

I thinks thats everything. I know theres people out there with more, mainly rojo and mgentz so I can't be completely crazy.

[vanman69]

yeah ive got a 1 1/2yrs to go myself, your right about nsw lol. should put some pics up.