June 12th, 2012, 07:03 PM | #281 | |
nub
Name: Adam
Location: PA
Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 zx-14 Posts: 142
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Quote:
You're an idiot who doesn't know when to be hush up and withdraw from a discussion. Your backyard tests mean absolutely nothing. The simple fact is that you cannot stop a bike, even a superbike, in as short of a distance as you can a car. Even a heavy car. Here is even more proof for you: Here are 3 performance sedans. All weighing over 2 tons. The WORST of them stopping in 111 feet: http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/c...gination_top_3 Now here's a test of some literbikes. The BEST they managed was 129 feet: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/268/98...omparison.aspx And yes. I think its entirely possible to stop a 250 that fast. By hitting a tree. Hopefully we see a vid of that. |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:11 PM | #282 | |
CBR250R Traitor
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Quote:
Apparently impossible things are possible when people say so on da intarwebz. |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:12 PM | #283 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Andy
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Joined the argument late, but I'm getting tired of an email from this thread every five minutes, so I'll go ahead and throw in my two cents.
As it turns out, my two cents is in the form of a link: http://www.rcramer.com/bikes/ex250/specs.shtml Check out the braking figures on the bottom right. |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:14 PM | #284 |
ninjette.org sage
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June 12th, 2012, 07:15 PM | #285 |
CBR250R Traitor
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Those numbers are more consistent with reality and 0.8g deceleration rates.
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June 12th, 2012, 07:24 PM | #286 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Brian
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Let me see if I have this straight. The majority of contention in this thread is coming from a single poster...telling any and all what's what with regards to braking and in a rather condescending manner towards the OP, all in the name of riding safely. This same guy started another thread with regards to AGATT in which he complains about others whom he implies have a condescending attitude towards those who choose less gear, himself included.
Ironic or moronic? http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105261 |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:36 PM | #287 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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^ Trolonic?
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June 12th, 2012, 07:41 PM | #288 |
ninjette.org member
Name: drac
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I can hear it now.... Well we cant see the speedo...Well we cant see the bottle in second stop.......blah blah blah....
Hears the deal.... When I got to the bottle I was at 31/32 on speedo. You'll have to trust I am telling the truth or you can send me videocams like Jigs has and you can see it all. I assure you I was at 31/32 on the speedo In the first stop notice the bottle is lined up with the electric fence post with the white paint at the top. It's for a cow pasture... Hey, I told you I lived in the country.... The bottle is in the exact same spot for the second stop. I watched this using VLC player(free) slowed down to 1/4 speed. It gives you a great view of how compressed the front suspension is along with the ability to really hear the tires squealing. Mostly you hear the front tire squealing because I don't lock the back up untill just before total stop. If you doubt the authenticity of this video I can't help you. All I can say is send me all the video equipment I need to satisfy whatever view you want to see and I will gladly make videos and send equipment back. If you aren't willing to send the equipment then this is the best I can do. I will try to get up a video that shows things a little better. I think in on the second stop I might have braked a little early. I hear tire squeal real early on and I didn't think I locked up the back until late in the braking maneuver. So I can only assume it is the front tire unless I jumped on the back brake a little harder than I wanted too and locked it up for a second. Sorry... but taking 30+ feet to stop a 250 ninja from 28mph is downright laughable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8riJ...ature=youtu.be
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June 12th, 2012, 07:44 PM | #289 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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^ thats a terrible scam! NOBODY SEND HIM CAMERAS!!! LOL
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:46 PM | #290 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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We said 28mph not 28 kph!
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:47 PM | #291 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Andy
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Aug 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 771
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Then it is solved. You're bike is the bestest ever.
/thread |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:52 PM | #292 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: drac
Location: VA
Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '88 Hurricane 600, '09 Ninja 250 Posts: 237
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Quote:
No just an average 2009 ninja 250......Anyone can learn to brake that hard but it takes a lot of practice.
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June 12th, 2012, 07:53 PM | #293 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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/need unobtanium brake pads
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:54 PM | #294 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
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Oh wait guys I know why he is stopping so fast. Rear brake all makes sense now
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:56 PM | #295 |
nub
Name: Adam
Location: PA
Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 zx-14 Posts: 142
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Wow. What a useful video. I am SO willing to take your word for... whatever the hell that was... over all the information posted here from sources that have the equipment to actually perform measured tests and report unbiased results from said tests.
Now go away. |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:58 PM | #296 |
Daily Ninjette rider
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The math of this braking distance discussion is very simple, for those more numerically inclined.
If we want to calculate the minimum distance possible, we need to assume the maximum achievable deceleration (1g). The formula to use is the one for free fall: S = V^2 /(2g) Let's calculate the distance that it takes to any physical body to free fall from repose down to the point at which it reaches 28 mph or 41 feet/second: S braking = (41)^2 /(2*32.2) = 26.1 feet If Sean did not slow down at all before impact, his body felt the force of falling (him and bike) sideways from that height. Using the time and reaction numbers of my previous post, let's calculate the distance that he covered in the time from recognition of danger and reaction (0.7 seconds) to reaching maximum deceleration (0.3 seconds). S reaction = V * t = (41 feet/second) * (0.7 + 0.3) = 41 feet Hence, S total = S reaction + S brake = 41 + 26.1 = 67.1 feet Now, you can play with those formulas and numbers and reduce the reaction time at will or reduce the deceleration rate. For example for half that reaction time (very hard to achieve) and a less than optimal deceleration of 0.8 g: S reaction = (V * t/2) = (41 feet/second) * [(0.7 + 0.3)/2] = 20.5 feet S braking = (41)^2 /(2*32.2*0.8) = 32.6 feet S total = S reaction + S brake = 20.5 + 32.6 = 53.1 feet I hope that the importance of reducing the reaction time can be understood from this example.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí Last futzed with by Motofool; June 13th, 2012 at 06:44 AM. |
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June 12th, 2012, 07:59 PM | #297 |
ninjette.org guru
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This makes me wonder how long i was on asphault, and what they did to me...
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June 13th, 2012, 05:35 AM | #298 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jay
Location: St. Marys, Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki Ninja 250r Posts: 169
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Quote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...65M0SU20100623 |
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June 13th, 2012, 07:14 AM | #299 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Fox
Location: Boston
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 08 250R Posts: 881
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Quote:
where did you come up with 1g? did you do calculations for the ninjette, the exact amount of gasoline in the tank, and the exact rider body position and weight? the maximum deceleration rate depends on either the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road (locking up the front), or the motorcycle and rider's center of gravity. Get your center of gravity back and low, and you can achieve a greater deceleration rate. It's all in the geometry and rider positioning. and for anyone who argues against a rear brake, THIS is what you need to look at, not just a general blanket statement that sport bikes will "stoppie" before you lose traction. The geometry matters, as does the rider position. It may be possible that if you get low enough, push your weight back hard enough, that the rear brake DOES still have weight on it in an emergency stop. |
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June 13th, 2012, 09:23 AM | #300 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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^. Guys, rear brake is feasible, just get low, duh
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 13th, 2012, 09:49 AM | #301 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Mason
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just gotta have some junk in the trunk....
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June 13th, 2012, 11:03 AM | #302 | |||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Jono
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If you followed/practiced these tips... http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9...ops/index.html You wouldn't have had such a bad crash.
What you did wrong... 1. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you could just get your head out of your ass you would clearly see that you made some mistakes and the crash was avoidable. Would I have made the same mistakes as you? It's possible, but I hope I would do a little better in that situation. I am young and inexperienced like yourself. Learn from your mistakes. |
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June 13th, 2012, 11:07 AM | #303 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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Quote:
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 13th, 2012, 11:49 AM | #305 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Bobby
Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Jiggles, maybe you should find someone like this dude in your area:
http://smd.craigslist.org/mcy/3074876709.html |
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June 13th, 2012, 11:52 AM | #306 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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^ dumb
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 13th, 2012, 11:53 AM | #307 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 13th, 2012, 11:54 AM | #308 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Bobby
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June 13th, 2012, 11:55 AM | #309 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 13th, 2012, 12:43 PM | #310 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Fox
Location: Boston
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 08 250R Posts: 881
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i refuse to argue with anyone about the front/rear brake issue.
it is a fact though, that tires, rider position, rider weight, and wheel base play into whether or not to use a rear brake on your bike in an emergency. It's purely geometry/physics, and can be calculated. a generic statement of 1g is the maximum breaking force until you lift a rear wheel, is not correct. |
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June 13th, 2012, 12:57 PM | #311 |
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That's true, that 1g is not necessarily the maximum braking force due to any rule or constant. Vehicles can theoretically brake harder and stop faster. But practically, with rubber tires and pavement, it's a pretty good approximation of the best you can do.
A 1g stop from 60 mph takes 120 feet. The best street vehicles in the world are in the 110 feet range, and the worst you'd ever want to drive would be in the 140 feet range. Motorcycles aren't far off of those numbers either. They are lighter, which helps to some extent, but they have smaller contact patches, which hurts to some extent. Now with race tires on a vehicle with ground effects, these numbers ramp up quickly (think F1).
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June 13th, 2012, 01:30 PM | #312 |
Daily Ninjette rider
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From Twist of the Wrist II and from the links shown in posts #138 and #284 of this thread.
What is your favorite number for g? "Perhaps it is difficult to sort-out the difference between the higher (around 1.0 G maximum) load of the braking and cornering forces from the much less pronounced acceleration (.1 to .2 G) required for optimum traction/suspension........ The average braking distance hasn't changed much in the past 15 years! For streetbikes or racebikes, once the back wheel is off the ground, with 100 percent of the bike's weight being carried by the front wheel, that's the end of the game where braking is concerned: You've run up against the laws of physics. Racers have been able to get the back wheel up, under braking, for two decades!...... The obvious mathematics of the situation are that the front wheel can do 100 percent of the braking and the back at that point just locks up no matter who you are. Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping......."
__________________________________________________
Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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June 13th, 2012, 02:31 PM | #313 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Fox
Location: Boston
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So a rule of thumb?
What your quoting is a generic statement. The reality is that every bike is different, and what holds true for a cbr600rr won't hold true for the ninjette. I have no brake force, it would need to be carefully calculated out,and I do enough calculations every day to bother with this. Edit "obvious mathematics" ignores the dynamic affect that applying braking forces at two different locations imparts. The rear wheel will cause the bike to dive, but not flip. I would argue, that when properly applied, using a rear brake will reduce brake distance, but completely agree with the opinions that in an emergency, a rider cannot possibly control both brakes properly. |
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June 13th, 2012, 02:31 PM | #314 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
All I read was a bunch of opinions. I do agree that the rear brake should be avoided at high speeds anything above 60mph but at the speed you were going in your crash below 30mph. I think the rear brake would definitely help you stop quicker. If you don't lock it up that is. Just another opinion. I did go practice hard braking in a parking lot today and found the rear brake to be helpful. I will need to go back and do some measuring to see if it really is beneficial like I believe it is. But it is hot as balls and I am lazy. Maybe if it ever cools down I'll test out my theory. |
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June 13th, 2012, 03:04 PM | #315 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
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Quote:
Well, that means that these tires can support 1 g at that angle. Tires used in GP can withstand higher g's, almost up to 2. What all this g business means? These tires generate a gripping force that can equal (g=1) or surpass (g>1) the value of the weight that they support. If that is true, then a front tire commanded to stop rolling by strong enough calipers, can generate a decelerating (gripping) force equal to the weight (vertical force) that it supports during braking (hence, the more loaded the tire becomes the better). Once the rear wheel is floating, all the weight of bike and rider is supported solely by that braking front wheel. Let's say the Ninjette and the rider weight 500 lb, then you can achieve a decelerating force of 500 lb (which is equivalent to the free fall of my previous calculation). Up to this point we have only considered achievable friction force, which applies to any bike (hence, the book is correct). As you have correctly explained, the geometry and location of the CG of the bike-rider will determine if the bike flips much (performing a stoppie) or none. A cruiser is long and much heavier than the rider; hence, the combined CG is low. Even if it can brake at 1 g of deceleration, the moment that tends to keep the rear wheel planted wins over the flipping moment. In this case the rear wheel does not float and still carries some of the total weight; therefore, it has some braking power to be used. A sport bike is short and not much heavier than the rider; hence, the combined CG is high (about half the distance between tire patches). Anything above 1 g of deceleration will make the flipping moment grow above the moment created by the weight applied to the CG, inducing a stoppie.
__________________________________________________
Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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June 13th, 2012, 03:42 PM | #316 |
ninjette.org member
Name: drac
Location: VA
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OK Motofool....I weight 147lbs.... How fast can I stop my ninja from 30mph?
Whether you choose to believe the video I post or not I am telling you in no uncertain terms that I stopped my bike consistently in 17 feet or less from just over 30mph on the seedo Just curious what your math says and do you stand by whatever number you get from said math? I live alone but the next time someone is over I will do another braking vid stopping from 30mph then 40mph.
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June 13th, 2012, 04:42 PM | #317 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Fox
Location: Boston
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@Motofool
sigh... we're saying the same exact thing, except the numbers you're using do not take into account the dynamic aspect of braking. in pure statics, you are correct, the maximum braking force would be equal to the weight of the bike and rider because (f=mu*mg), and that's assuming a 1.0 coefficient of friction. The dynamic affect of braking and the change in momentum will impart additional forces to the front tire, increasing the achievable braking force. Due to the dynamic loading affect, and varying center of gravity between every different bike and rider combination, nobody can generalize and say that 1g is all you can achieve. Some sport bikes might be at 1g, others might be below it, and others might be above it. My sense (without calculation) is that most will be at or above. |
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June 13th, 2012, 05:45 PM | #318 |
<><><><><><><><><>
Name: Eric
Location: Robertsdale, AL
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I agree with everyone. Everyone is right.
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Have you ever read the King James Bible? To say speed kills is akin to saying guns kill, neither of which is true. |
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June 13th, 2012, 05:45 PM | #319 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
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^ dis guy haz smart
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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June 14th, 2012, 10:18 AM | #320 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
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Quote:
If you were really starting the braking at indicated 30 mph, which is not obvious in your short video, you were decelerating at a rate of 1.53 times the acceleration of gravity (g), in order to come to a complete stop in 17 feet. Next time, try a stopple in the same conditions for us to see if the distance can be reduced even more: I believe you could do better by making the rear tire float. I stand by my math; however, I have been wrong before. What I am trying to confirm with these and previous calculations is that the OP couldn't avoid this specific collision against that car via the best reaction and braking he (or anybody else) could do with his Ninjette.
__________________________________________________
Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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