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Old March 23rd, 2018, 10:16 PM   #1
TrickyTriggs
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Bike won't start and backfires when trying to start FIXED!!!!

Hi guys, I'm back again and I am in desperate help!

I have a 1995 Suzuki RF900RS, it has over 40k miles on it. Bought from some guy who didn't take any good care of it. Valve's looked fine, normal ware on the camshafts, gearbox worn out(especially second gear). I have rebuilt a bike before but it was a two cylinder (GSTWIN) and I figured an engine with two more couldn't be that harder. I rebuilt the top end and did a valve clearance check. Making sure to keep the exhaust clearances between .20 and .10mm. And the intake between .10mm and .20 mm.

Procedure for cam timing:
-- Rotated the crankshaft to top dead center
-- aligned the 1st marker on the exhaust cam shaft, level with the valve head, counted 13 pins to the left along the cam chain and aligned the 3rd marker on the intake cam.
Here's the video of me doing that:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0x8A_ekqCg

-- Installed the cam tensioner.


Here the issue...

-- Carbs should have worked fine, they worked before I took the bike apart and after they should have kept working because I didn't do much to them at all.
-- When I start turn the fuel petcock on, fuel starts flowing. Take a good couple of minutes for the bike exhaust to make any kind of noise.
-- Bike immediately shoots of a loud gunfire(POP).
-- It will sometimes make a poomp, poomp, poomp, POP, poomp, poomp, poomp,, POP. And it will continue to do this unless I turn the bike off.
It also cause the exhaust to release a lot of white smoke.

Possible causes (I think):
Here's a bad video of the bike backfiring and not starting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA68kj4kuQ4

-- Bad fuel: I was using months old fuel with fuel storage stuff put in it.
-- Bad Carbs: Which I have trouble believing because all the Pilot jets, main jets are clear. The diaphragm sliders work great.
-- Bad Spark Plugs: I replaced them with new ones
-- weak ignition coils: I tested each spark plug by grounding them to the frame and all worked exactly the same(lol I shocked my self once too, Not as bad as I thought it would be).
-- Stator: Not sure how it works and how it affects the spark plugs
-- Air delivery: I tried cleaning my stock air filter with K&N cleaner kit. By washing and spraying the product on it. I don't know if this could have cause the filter to get clogged instead of actually cleaning it. Which in turn could have caused the mixture to go lean. Therefore resulting in the combustion chambers to be flooded with fuel with not enough fuel burnet leaving a little of it still in the chamber. Causing backfiring.s
-- Some other stupid thing that I might have missed when reassembling the bike

ALL the motorcycle gurus out there I call on you for help!!!!

Thank You for any of the support you guys give me

Last futzed with by TrickyTriggs; April 8th, 2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old March 23rd, 2018, 11:05 PM   #2
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Old March 23rd, 2018, 11:21 PM   #3
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Old March 24th, 2018, 07:17 AM   #4
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My guess would be that the cam timing is still not correct or you have a bent valve.

Ignition timing could also be off, but I'm leaning towards the cam timing.
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Old March 24th, 2018, 08:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
My guess would be that the cam timing is still not correct or you have a bent valve.

Ignition timing could also be off, but I'm leaning towards the cam timing.
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Old March 24th, 2018, 09:04 AM   #6
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Cam timing error seems most likely. I've also seen very incorrect ignition timing cause symptoms like this, but it would have to be way off somehow. Like maybe spark plug wires mixed up.
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Old March 24th, 2018, 11:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Cam timing error seems most likely. I've also seen very incorrect ignition timing cause symptoms like this, but it would have to be way off somehow. Like maybe spark plug wires mixed up.


When I installed the wiring system, I could only install the ignition coils a certain way. And the ignition coils are the same right and left, as well as I don’t think th polarity of the ignition coils matters does it?

I was thinking it might be the air/fuel mixture but the way It ran was weird, it would like rumble for the 3 strokes an then backfire and repeat.

I went over my clearances again and I noticed one was out of spec. Bought the wrong shim for it and made it .15mm clearance rather than .25mm clearance for the exhaust valves. Could this have caused the issue?

Last futzed with by TrickyTriggs; March 24th, 2018 at 12:53 PM.
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Old March 24th, 2018, 11:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Cam timing error seems most likely. I've also seen very incorrect ignition timing cause symptoms like this, but it would have to be way off somehow. Like maybe spark plug wires mixed up.
Did you watch my video did I do it right?
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Old March 24th, 2018, 12:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Cam timing error seems most likely. I've also seen very incorrect ignition timing cause symptoms like this, but it would have to be way off somehow. Like maybe spark plug wires mixed up.
If some one could look over the procedure to see if I missed something?

Below is the a website for the RF900R repair manual:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/10...page=97#manual

Thank you

Link to the video of me attempting the timing procedure

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0x8A_ekqCg
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Old March 25th, 2018, 09:54 PM   #10
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Looks like chain between cam sprockets was loose when laid over intake cam. After you released tensioner, did you turn engine over 720-degrees to TDC and confirm marks on both cams line up?

Also looking at coils, it's appears possible to swap wires at coils themselves? Such as 1 & 4 wires where they entre coil. And for 2 & 3 coil, is it possible to plug #3 wire onto cylinder #2's plug?

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; March 26th, 2018 at 07:57 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2018, 11:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Looks like chain between cam sprockets was loose when laid over intake cam. After you released tensioner, did you turn engine over 720-degrees to TDC and confirm marks on both cams line up?

Also looking at coils, it's appears possible to swap wires at coils themselves? Such as 1 & 4 wires where they entre coil. And for 2 & 3 coil, is it possible to plug #3 wire onto cylinder #2's plug?
This is how I put in each coils
Note: reading from the seat from left to right.

Coil(a) coil(b) coil(c) coil(d). B and d are long coil wires

(a,2) (b,4) (c,3) (d,1)

Spark1 spark2 spark3 spark 4

And yes I checked to make sure they were still lined up.

While I have been waiting for the other shim to come in the mail I started doing some research. And I think I might have come to a solution. Or at lease part of it.
This website talks about ignition coil polarity.

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm

From it sais that if you have your wiring incorrect it can cause a weak spark. Therefore it might fail to run.

But in my case all the spark plugs fired the exact same when I tested them.

One thing to point out is some of the spark plugs were not dirty with residue from combustion. This might be because the carbs aren't outputting fuel. This is false because the float bowls are full and the main jets and pilot jets are clear. So then what could be causing no ignition?

Last futzed with by TrickyTriggs; April 1st, 2018 at 11:25 AM. Reason: update
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Old April 6th, 2018, 11:32 AM   #12
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Bike started!!!!!! And ran!!!!!!!

But!!! The problem is it runs and backfired and huge white smoke comes out the back
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Old April 6th, 2018, 01:57 PM   #13
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What does white smoke smell like?
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Old April 6th, 2018, 05:01 PM   #14
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Smells like burnt gas,(I would also point out that I had the exhaust sit in viniger for de-rusting. That’s what I think it might be)


Here’s a video of it running
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BTKgezkCpgQ


After further inspection I noticed that the left 2 headers were cold while the right 2 weren’t so I think there is a problem with the left two carbs. Probably something like “duh”. The left inner carb should work fine because I never touched it and it worked fine on the bike so what do you think I’m missing??
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Old April 7th, 2018, 06:34 AM   #15
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See if you currently have spark at the two cylinders that don't fire.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 06:50 AM   #16
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Still thinking something like a bent valve or a valve hanging open.

Have you have double checked the clearances to make sure one is not too tight?

Seems like a lot of top-end noise going on.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 10:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Still thinking something like a bent valve or a valve hanging open.

Have you have double checked the clearances to make sure one is not too tight?

Seems like a lot of top-end noise going on.


Well I did a top end rebuild and and found no bent valves, and when assemblying theres was no lag, meaning I didn’t have to force it to crank. Also the rattling noise was not the engine but it was the horn hangin down that was making the noise. I probably should have takin that off.

UPDATE!!!

Ok so I switched the ignition coils and it stopped backfiring like crazy but it still runs on only two cylinders on the right side. Any idea what could be causing that?
I’m thinking it might be a clogged pilot jet. If it is anyone have ideas on how to clean it?
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Old April 7th, 2018, 12:03 PM   #18
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If swapping coils changed the problem, I would not immediately think "carburetors". Did you check for spark on the two non-firing cylinders yet?
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Old April 7th, 2018, 01:53 PM   #19
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Switch spark-plug wires on two cylinders not firing
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Old April 7th, 2018, 02:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Switch spark-plug wires on two cylinders not firing
I think I mentioned that a long time ago.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 02:29 PM   #21
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Yeah, I think ignition related.

1. Pull all plugs

2. Insert them in plug wires and lay on top of engine so case of plugs are grounded

3. Position plugs and youse!f so you can see all 4 plugs

4. Crank engine and note firing order

5. What is sequence of spark plug firing you see? 1-2-3-4? Or 4-3-2-1? Or something else?

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 9th, 2018 at 07:03 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 10:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
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If swapping coils changed the problem, I would not immediately think "carburetors". Did you check for spark on the two non-firing cylinders yet?
Thereís is a clean and constant spark for all of them, but I did notice that it takes one or two cranks before it sparks then itís continuous.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 10:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Switch spark-plug wires on two cylinders not firing
I donít think itís the ignition coils because each one connects to the second and far holes. If an ignition coil was bad a cylinder on the left and right side wouldnít fire which is not the case as the two right ones donít die.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 10:34 PM   #24
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I think I mentioned that a long time ago.
I did switch them and it stopped backfiring except for an initial backfire then smooth running on two right cylinders
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Old April 7th, 2018, 10:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yeah, I think ignition related.

1. Pull all plugs

2. Insert them in plug wires and lay on top of engine so case of plugs are grounded

3. Position plugs and youse!f so you can see a 4 plug

4. Crank engine and note firing order

5. What is sequence of spark plug firing you see? 1-2-3-4? Or 4-3-2-1? Or something else?

I will try this tmrw morning and get back to you.

Ok so I think this post was super helpful!!!!!!
When you mentioned sequence I tried to recall me knowing exactly how the orientation of the plugs were and I couldnít. So I looked up some YouTube videos of previous rf owners to see what they had for orientation and it look like they had the the left short plug go to cylinder 1 and the long one to cylinder 4. And on the right side the short plug to cylinder 3 and the long plug to cylinder 2.

I will see if that will fix my issue which Iím guessing it will!!!! God Iím so psyched!!!! I want to do it now lol but itís 2 am and my neighbors would definitely call the cops on me haha.
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Old April 8th, 2018, 06:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickyTriggs View Post
I did switch them and it stopped backfiring except for an initial backfire then smooth running on two right cylinders
I thought you said you swapped coils, not plug wires at the plugs. I believe the firing order is 1342, which means 1 and 2 don't share a coil, and if they're swapped, you could have the problem you describe.
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Old April 8th, 2018, 11:07 AM   #27
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IT WORKED!!!! Started right up!!!

Thanks all for the support it’s really appreciated. Ride safe!
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Old April 8th, 2018, 11:09 AM   #28
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I thought you said you swapped coils, not plug wires at the plugs. I believe the firing order is 1342, which means 1 and 2 don't share a coil, and if they're swapped, you could have the problem you describe.
No the plugs that go from the right and left ignition coils into 1 and 2 cylinders were switched. Which caused the issue.
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Old April 8th, 2018, 11:14 AM   #29
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I think that's what I said, but I might not have been clear enough. Good, I'm glad you finally found the swapped wires.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 07:10 AM   #30
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Firing order on this engine is an oddball 1-2-4-3. Seeing the spark sequence on removed plugs would tell us if they are in correct order. Common test in auto-tech schools is to rip out all plug-wires and have students re-install with no help, no manuals, no YouTube.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 08:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Firing order on this engine is an oddball 1-2-4-3. Seeing the spark sequence on removed plugs would tell us if they are in correct order. Common test in auto-tech schools is to rip out all plug-wires and have students re-install with no help, no manuals, no YouTube.

Interesting good to know
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