Due Diligence and the Honda CBR250

[Zola]

With two Ninja 250s, an ’08 and ’11, and with the need to add another small displacement sport bike to the stable, I have taken a close look at the Honda. I reread every review and comparison test I could find in Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Rider, and other print and online media outlets and, in almost every case, the Honda was named a close but clear winner. Comments included “Move Over Ninjette”, “The Complete Package”, among a host of accolades. How could one possibly go wrong, say no more, buying, the Honda?

Rather than limit research to reading the blurbs of testing and editorial staff whose careers essentially involve selling motorcycles, I turned to online forums to listen to the people who own and ride the CBR, expecting to see glowing, positive posts. It was no surprise to find that the thread “Gas Mileage CBR250” was the most popular at CBR250.net but it was an eye popper to read “Engine Rattle!!! SIGN UP” with 162 entries and 8,130 views and counting and “My CBR250’s engine turns off when Downshifting!!!” with 165 entries and 6,386 views.

If you are considering the CBR250 I suggest you log on to CBR250.net and review the threads before making a buying decision. It’s remarkable how many references are made to “getting a lawyer.”

Long post short; I’m picking up my third Ninja 250r next Tuesday.

[94fiveohvert]

Such a shame, honestly. I love my ninjette, but for almost every other bike i've had it's been Honda. They've been nothing but good to me. Especially my indestructible atc70, and crf50.

[Zola]

Very sad.

Left graduate school for a year in 1976 to ride my first Honda, a 360T. Loved riding the CX500 from 1980 - 1984. Have had several outstanding Honda pieces since.

Venerable Honda has had a string of recent issues: 900,000 recall on cars with potential lethal, misfiring air bags (one documented fatality and many injuries); a 2012 Civic redesign bomb (another redesign scheduled for release in the 2013 model year); a boat load of very unhappy CBR250 owners.

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by Zola

Very sad.

Left graduate school for a year in 1976 to ride my first Honda, a 360T. Loved riding the CX500 from 1980 - 1984. Have had several outstanding Honda pieces since.

Venerable Honda has had a string of recent issues: 900,000 recall on cars with potential lethal, misfiring air bags (one documented fatality and many injuries); a 2012 Civic redesign bomb (another redesign scheduled for release in the 2013 model year); a boat load of very unhappy CBR250 owners.

Not to mention the huge fail that is the CR-Z. Slow, heavy, and regular non-hybid cars can possibly get better fuel economy.

Honda was once one of the greats, but for the past few years it seems they lost their soul and are unable to completely reclaim it.

[94fiveohvert]

Originally Posted by 00NissanNinja

Not to mention the huge fail that is the CR-Z. Slow, heavy, and regular non-hybid cars can possibly get better fuel economy.

Honda was once one of the greats, but for the past few years it seems they lost their soul and are unable to completely reclaim it.

Have you seen the Mugen cr-z? I think it was on top gear that I seen it. Quite impressive.

[00NissanNinja]

It seemed pretty good but there are many more cheaper cars that can deliver similar or better performance. The Mugen imo delivers the promises of performance that honda said the CR-Z would deliver (and in stock trim it didn't). I wasn't saying the CR-Z is a piece of garbage but it certainly under-delivers in many ways. The Mugen version sounds nice though, with a few changes here and there to make it competitive if honda decides to sell it.

[kyrider]

There is another 250 option in the Hyosung GT250R. The recent builds are getting some good reviews.

[eddiekay]

'Rather than limit research to reading the blurbs of testing and editorial staff whose careers essentially involve selling motorcycles, I turned to online forums to listen".....
I think this is the best advice we can give or take with just about any purchase.

[Trailerboy531]

So....why do you wish to have 3 ninjettes? Seems like overkill to me?

[Zola]

Following are comments from the July 2011 Motorcyclist mag head-to-head comparison of the Honda CBR 250, the Hyosung GT250R, and the Ninja 250r:

"The GT250R is the big kid in this class...and weighs in at a hefty 414 lbs. wet."

"Gaps between fairing panels, a wrinkled seat cover and exposed electronics don't stack up to the Japanese bikes fit and finish."

"It takes a strong hand to pull in the heavy clutch lever, and movement through the five-speed gearbox is less than precise..."

"The engine does have a few quirks... no rev limiter, and the clutch plates occasionally chattered and howled after shifting into neutral... we experienced a misfire off idle after prolonged freeway riding..."

"Perspective owners had better be comfortable performing periodic maintenance themselves or prepare to fork over a lot of dough to a mechanic; the owners manual recommends changing the oil and filter and checking the valves every 2500 miles."

"Although it has twice the front brakes of the Honda and Kawasaki, the Hyosung's squishy lever takes double the effort and has no feel."

"Engine power is on par with the others, but the GT's extra heft makes it slow to accelerate and turn."

Hyosung (stats listed first) vs. Ninja:

Weight (tank full): 414 lbs. - 383 lbs.
Horsepower: 22.6 - 24.6
Corrected 1/4-mile: 16.8 sec. - 15.3 sec.
Top-gear-roll-on 60-80 mph: 8.6 sec. - 6.3 sec.

30 lbs heavier, nearly 10% less bhp, and air cooled vs. liquid cooled motor.

The Hyosung is not yet ready for prime time.

[jack_bm]

i personally dont like the look of the CBR250 i also looked at one before my ninja also think the stock exhaust on it looks horrible. Congrats on the ninja

[Zola]

Originally Posted by Trailerboy531

So....why do you wish to have 3 ninjettes? Seems like overkill to me?

Multiple riders in the family. My wife and I take two on our trailer when we travel and day ride. They have seen the east coast from Key West to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. They're easy to transport and as we all know, great fun to flog. The third is for my youngest son, first year rider, who has much to learn before he rides the Bonneville or Sportster. The next will be for our grandson in a couple of years.

[kyrider]

Originally Posted by Zola

Following are comments from the July 2011 Motorcyclist mag head-to-head comparison of the Honda CBR 250, the Hyosung GT250R, and the Ninja 250r:

"The GT250R is the big kid in this class...and weighs in at a hefty 414 lbs. wet."

"Gaps between fairing panels, a wrinkled seat cover and exposed electronics don't stack up to the Japanese bikes fit and finish."

"It takes a strong hand to pull in the heavy clutch lever, and movement through the five-speed gearbox is less than precise..."

"The engine does have a few quirks... no rev limiter, and the clutch plates occasionally chattered and howled after shifting into neutral... we experienced a misfire off idle after prolonged freeway riding..."

"Perspective owners had better be comfortable performing periodic maintenance themselves or prepare to fork over a lot of dough to a mechanic; the owners manual recommends changing the oil and filter and checking the valves every 2500 miles."

"Although it has twice the front brakes of the Honda and Kawasaki, the Hyosung's squishy lever takes double the effort and has no feel."

"Engine power is on par with the others, but the GT's extra heft makes it slow to accelerate and turn."

Hyosung (stats listed first) vs. Ninja:

Weight (tank full): 414 lbs. - 383 lbs.
Horsepower: 22.6 - 24.6
Corrected 1/4-mile: 16.8 sec. - 15.3 sec.
Top-gear-roll-on 60-80 mph: 8.6 sec. - 6.3 sec.

30 lbs heavier, nearly 10% less bhp, and air cooled vs. liquid cooled motor.

The Hyosung is not yet ready for prime time.

I read those reviews too but I trust personal reviews more than I do paid magazine writers.

http://www.productreview.com.au/p/hyosung-gt250r.html

[Trailerboy531]

Originally Posted by Zola

Multiple riders in the family. My wife and I take two on our trailer when we travel and day ride. They have seen the east coast from Key West to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. They're easy to transport and as we all know, great fun to flog. The third is for my youngest son, first year rider, who has much to learn before he rides the Bonneville or Sportster. The next will be for our grandson in a couple of years.

...are you adopting?

[kyrider]

This guy like his GT250R.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Zola

Multiple riders in the family. My wife and I take two on our trailer when we travel and day ride. They have seen the east coast from Key West to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. They're easy to transport and as we all know, great fun to flog. The third is for my youngest son, first year rider, who has much to learn before he rides the Bonneville or Sportster. The next will be for our grandson in a couple of years.

Love it! A little Ninjette family

[Hopmix]

Originally Posted by Zola

With two Ninja 250s, an ’08 and ’11, and with the need to add another small displacement sport bike to the stable, I have taken a close look at the Honda. I reread every review and comparison test I could find in Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Rider, and other print and online media outlets and, in almost every case, the Honda was named a close but clear winner. Comments included “Move Over Ninjette”, “The Complete Package”, among a host of accolades. How could one possibly go wrong, say no more, buying, the Honda?

Rather than limit research to reading the blurbs of testing and editorial staff whose careers essentially involve selling motorcycles, I turned to online forums to listen to the people who own and ride the CBR, expecting to see glowing, positive posts. It was no surprise to find that the thread “Gas Mileage CBR250” was the most popular at CBR250.net but it was an eye popper to read “Engine Rattle!!! SIGN UP” with 162 entries and 8,130 views and counting and “My CBR250’s engine turns off when Downshifting!!!” with 165 entries and 6,386 views.

If you are considering the CBR250 I suggest you log on to CBR250.net and review the threads before making a buying decision. It’s remarkable how many references are made to “getting a lawyer.”

Long post short; I’m picking up my third Ninja 250r next Tuesday.

This stuff cracks me up.
I have a CBR 250R. I have no engine rattle. I do have some rattles on the bike occasionally from fairings or whatever. My Gsxr has a lot more rattles. CMON SON its a thumper. I personally have never seen a bike that didn't rattle somewhere when you are pushing the rpms up and cruising. The ninja is buzzy as a MF. My hands tingle when I get off of it. As far as the engine cutting off, I have experienced twice. After my first service at Honda. Soon after I went to a proper mechanic for a tune and the issue never came back. I also started running higher octane gas. If these are a reason to stop you from riding the bike or buying it the they aren't good ones.
As far as the cbr forum. Most of the guys one there are 60+ in age and tend to have nothing better to do but complain and debate ****. Read the entire thread about the engine rattle. Every person who says they have it says its coming from somewhere different and most of the thread is off topic and has nothing to do with a engine rattle. Like every thread on every motorcycle forum. 163 post and about 150 of them are form people who don't know ****.
I think this quote serves it best Motorcycles make all sorts of whirs, rattles, ticks, taps, bangs, clunks, thumps, buzzes and harmonics.

"Just ride the ring off the ****ing thing folks and stop worrying, it gets smoother more you wring its neck, many of you are spoiling your new bike experience by stuff you read on here" -Auffit.

Its motorcycle a dudes. Not a new lexus. And a 4000 dollar one at that. The bike is awesome. trust me. go ride one for yourself and stop reading these damn forums. That said having three ninjas is not a bad thing either. Maybe a bit boring though.

[greg737]

Still wishing Yamaha would join the 250cc fray.

[jack_bm]

Originally Posted by greg737

Still wishing Yamaha would join the 250cc fray.

I thought there was plans for there to be a yamaha YZF 250 it says here about it. http://wahyujrs.blogspot.com/2010/06...zf-250-r4.html

[Hopmix]

Originally Posted by Zola

Very sad.

Left graduate school for a year in 1976 to ride my first Honda, a 360T. Loved riding the CX500 from 1980 - 1984. Have had several outstanding Honda pieces since.

Venerable Honda has had a string of recent issues: 900,000 recall on cars with potential lethal, misfiring air bags (one documented fatality and many injuries); a 2012 Civic redesign bomb (another redesign scheduled for release in the 2013 model year); a boat load of very unhappy CBR250 owners.

and again, I only found one guy on the cbr forum that got rid of his 250. Every other person on there that have complained also say how much they Love the bike.
I don't know your son but i would certainly take a real world look at the honda. Its a very friendly bike for a newbie. IMHO more than the ninja. FI gas milage. better low end torque. Much easier service schedule. Its a thumper. Throw you a Akrapovic on there. Its mean.

sidenote: that Yammie looks bad ass. Im on if they release stateside. Love the motoGP styling.

[akima]

@jack_bm: that is tasty lookin'

@Hopmix: The CBR250R isn't special with it's FI engine. My Ninjette is fuel injected. I think it's only America which gets the Carb version. Japan, Australia, the UK and India all get the FI version.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by jack_bm

I thought there was plans for there to be a yamaha YZF 250 it says here about it. http://wahyujrs.blogspot.com/2010/06...zf-250-r4.html

That pic has been floating around since 2008 when a Japanese magazine photoshopped bits and pieces of a R1 and R6 to dress it up like a 250 in response to rumoured specs. I'm sure it sold a lot of magazines and it definitely got people talking. They even had one in red to further wet your appetite.

Yamaha may very well have plans drawn up for a 250cc sport but if it is indeed an inline 4 with upgrades like dual front disc brakes, I'm sure it'd cost a pretty penny if it were to come to fruition. Not saying that it wouldn't be one sweet bike though .

[greg737]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Yamaha may very well have plans drawn up for a 250cc sport but if it is indeed an inline 4 with upgrades like dual front disc brakes, I'm sure it'd cost a pretty penny if it were to come to fruition. Not saying that it wouldn't be one sweet bike though .

I agree, not likely. An over-the-top 4 cylinder 250 is probably going to remain a part of history (CBR250RR for example). The major manufacturers know that a 250 that costs as much as a 600 just isn't going to have enough sales volume to make it a viable product.

But.... There's plenty of room for Yamaha to do something interesting with a 250 twin. I'd love to see some new technology applied to a parallel twin 250, like laying the cylinders back a bit as is being done with the motocross engines. Put the FI intake on the front and the exhaust on the back of the cylinder head then push the engine way forward in the frame and then further centralize the mass of the bike by doing an underbody exhaust. This would give it great handling characteristics.

The rest of the bike's specs can be just like the current EX-250 to keep costs in line.

This approach would be in keeping with the formula that has made the EX-250 such a great seller for Kawasaki: put a very good engine in a middle of the road frame and surround it with middle of the road parts. This combination equals affordable & satisfying.

It's a "win" on just about any level because: A. a lot of people can afford it, B. a lot of people will be perfectly satisfied with it "as-is" off the showroom floor, and C. because it would already have a very good engine the "modify and upgrade" crowd could happily concentrate on things like tires, suspension and cosmetic farkles.

[Hopmix]

Originally Posted by akima

@jack_bm: that is tasty lookin'

@Hopmix: The CBR250R isn't special with it's FI engine. My Ninjette is fuel injected. I think it's only America which gets the Carb version. Japan, Australia, the UK and India all get the FI version.

definitely not special. I would think FI should be standard at this point. Don't understand the reasoning behind not offering it in the states.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Hopmix

Don't understand the reasoning behind not offering it in the states.

cost.
USA doesn't require the same emissions standards that the rest of the world does.

When I talked to the Kawasaki guys at Ticket to Ride over the summer, one of the guys said that FI would be in the US in 2 model years at the latest. That was a few months before the 2012 came out, so that means 2014? idk, I kinda take what those guys say with a grain of salt; they're just salesmen, not business execs

Originally Posted by greg737

I'd love to see some new technology applied to a parallel twin 250, like laying the cylinders back a bit as is being done with the motocross engines. Put the FI intake on the front and the exhaust on the back of the cylinder head then push the engine way forward in the frame and then further centralize the mass of the bike by doing an underbody exhaust. This would give it great handling characteristics.
.

That would be very interesting and would definitely get attention. It would be a new entry to the 250 market that isn't just a run-of-the-mill 250. It would mean that Kawi, Honda, and Yami all would have a distinctly unique offering to the 250 market; an in-the-box, proven twin, a thumper, and an out-of-the-box, balanced twin, respectively.

as always, another creative, viable idea from you greg737. I like it

[dark_beaverezt]

The main reason why I didn't regret getting the NINJA 250R...Too bad, HONDA has ye to put more effort in improving their own version of the 250...

[akima]

Originally Posted by Hopmix

Don't understand the reasoning behind not offering it in the states.

I think I understand!

Japanese bike designer 1: "Shall hwe giv AMEricans fuel injection?" (>_>)
Japanese bike designer 2: "NO! Fu the AMEricans!" (>_<)
Japanese bike designer 1: "YESH! Fu the AMEricans... HA HA HA HA" \(*^_^*)/
Japanese bike designer 2: "HA HA HA HA" \(*^_^*)/

Originally Posted by choneofakind

cost.
USA doesn't require the same emissions standards that the rest of the world does.

There are plenty more reasons to switch to FI over just improved emissions.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

When I talked to the Kawasaki guys at Ticket to Ride over the summer, one of the guys said that FI would be in the US in 2 model years at the latest. That was a few months before the 2012 came out, so that means 2014? idk, I kinda take what those guys say with a grain of salt; they're just salesmen, not business execs

I don't think they're very good salesmen if they're telling people that. If I heard that, was American and was in the market for getting a 250R I'd probably hold off buying one for a couple of years until they released the FI model.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

as always, another creative, viable idea from you greg737. I like it

+1

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by akima

There are plenty more reasons to switch to FI over just improved emissions.

Right, but the 250 is selling just fine here in its current dress. If the bike is meeting all the emissions requirements to be sold in the US with carbs, and is still meeting Kawasaki's sales estimates and making a profit for them, Kawasaki really has no reason to bring the EFI model 250R here unless a) sales drop and Kawasaki can directly link that to the 250 being carb'd instead of EFI or b) the US brings up tighter emissions standards that the carb'd version won't stand up to.

My estimate is that until the carbs stop making economic sense for Kawasaki in the US, they aren't going to stop using them on the 250R

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Right, but the 250 is selling just fine here in its current dress. If the bike is meeting all the emissions requirements to be sold in the US with carbs, and is still meeting Kawasaki's sales estimates and making a profit for them, Kawasaki really has no reason to bring the EFI model 250R here unless a) sales drop and Kawasaki can directly link that to the 250 being carb'd instead of EFI or b) the US brings up tighter emissions standards that the carb'd version won't stand up to.

My estimate is that until the carbs stop making economic sense for Kawasaki in the US, they aren't going to stop using them on the 250R

I getcha... but considering all you just said, why don't they offer both carb'd and fuel injected bikes? That way they could satisfy all the current customers who are happy saving money but having an inferior system, they could satisfy all the customers who would prefer to pay more for FI (and make more profit of them!) and they could gain new customers: the people who would previously avoid buying the Ninjette only because it lacked FI.

What am I missing? Or is the American division of Kawasaki just stupid!

[94fiveohvert]

Originally Posted by akima

i think i understand!

japanese bike designer 1: "shall hwe giv americans fuel injection?" (>_>)
japanese bike designer 2: "no! Fu the americans!" (>_<)
japanese bike designer 1: "yesh! Fu the americans... Ha ha ha ha" \(*^_^*)/
japanese bike designer 2: "ha ha ha ha" \(*^_^*)/

lmao!!!!!!

[choneofakind]

The reason I like my carbs is because they're easy and cheap to work on compared to an FI version. (a few jets and some washers is like $20 and I can have a bike that runs well with any intake/exhaust/altitude combination I can imagine, whereas a Power Commander is like $400) They get clogged, you clean them with carb cleaner and compressed air. When something breaks, you buy a repair part, instead of needing to plug your bike into a computer and read the codes or take it to a dealer. But don't get me wrong, I want an EFI version of the bike. I'm keeping this one till I graduate college, and then buying myself a new one either with EFI, or with an aftermarket EFI kit. But the carbs work just fine.

I feel like Kawasaki USA is just being dumb or cheap or both for as long as they can still make money while doing it

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The reason I like my carbs is because they're easy and cheap to work on compared to an FI version. (a few jets and some washers is like $20 and I can have a bike that runs well with any intake/exhaust/altitude combination I can imagine, whereas a Power Commander is like $400) They get clogged, you clean them with carb cleaner and compressed air. When something breaks, you buy a repair part, instead of needing to plug your bike into a computer and read the codes or take it to a dealer.

I can totally see the benefits of that actually. I like the idea of having a bike with no electronics and very simple mechanical systems, so it's robust and easy to maintain... and will continue functioning when China decides to EMP us!

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I feel like Kawasaki USA is just being dumb or cheap or both for as long as they can still make money while doing it

My point was that, it seems they would make more money if they made an option to buy the FI version. Kinda like how Honda provide the option of buying the CBR250R with or without ABS. They cover a bigger market that way: the provide for the people who want a cheaper bike and the people who want a better/more-advanced bike.

[Csmith9]

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...rt/09-yzf-r125

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...ort/11-yzf-r15

They already have 125's and 150's now they just need to bolt two 125 engines together and BAM we are good to go haha

[akima]

Originally Posted by Csmith9

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...rt/09-yzf-r125

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...ort/11-yzf-r15

They already have 125's and 150's now they just need to bolt two 125 engines together and BAM we are good to go haha

Other than the wheels, that's a very pretty bike.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by Zola

With two Ninja 250s, an ’08 and ’11, and with the need to add another small displacement sport bike to the stable, I have taken a close look at the Honda.

I have both the 2011 Honda CBR250R and 2009 Ninja 250. I never ride the Ninja anymore.
.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=stable+mates

[greg737]

Originally Posted by sendler

I have both the 2011 Honda CBR250R and 2009 Ninja 250. I never ride the Ninja anymore.
.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=stable+mates

Congradulations on never riding the Ninja anymore.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by kyrider

There is another 250 option in the Hyosung GT250R. The recent builds are getting some good reviews.

How recent?

Hyodung have earned that nickname, they are very prone to rusting, electrical problems and like to break down repeatedly.
A quick look over a thread on an Irish site, started by a bloke asking for advice on buying one, it had 15 owners/ previous owners on it, of them 13 advised not to, 2 (one with all of 2500 miles on it) said to go for one as theirs gave no real trouble.

Stick to a Jap bike

[etiainen]

I love the bike, have no problems, have done 400 mile trips easily on the seat.

It all boils down to personal preference, but the bike is great and I love it. I prefer it to my old ninja hands down.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by greg737

Congradulations on never riding the Ninja anymore.

Did you click on the stable mates thread to find out what I like about the CBR250R?

[Rexbo]

There's very few people racing them in the states and I don't know why. Maybe you all just need to crash more so we can pick them up at auction and make them race bikes. GOGOGOGOGOGo