Why no love for the 650 Ninjas?

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by seanshawnS

What role does the ninja play when you own an sv650? I've been considering the SV, but what would I do with my pretty ninja? Seems like it would be rendered pointless.

Well, I don't have the ninja anymore, but it really helped to learn how to handle a motorcycle. There's too much to explain, but it was an excellent tool to learn from.

Originally Posted by ai4px

I looked at a Gladuis when I was buying my 650r. It looked odd to me and all the advertising looked gehy to me. As for it having only 20hp less than a I4, what do you think the 650r has? Yeah, it's got even less. lol.

SV650 73.4hp
650r 64hp.

This is significant I must admit, but look at the numbers where the rubber meets the road...

Roll on 60-80mph
SV650 4.4 sec, 650r 3.8 sec.

Granted, we are talking about 1/2 a second... but whoop... but where did that exta 10hp go? It didn't go into acceleration. I do wonder if it took away from the gas mileage.

Yes, I'm cherry picking my specs to compare... all in good fun. I didn't realize it was a v-2 engine, I really should have cranked one up to hear it. I am not fond at all of the sound of my 650.

Still though, I really LIKE my 650r. It's the goldilocks bike for me. Good enough mileage (47 usually), two personalities (non-overlapping torque and HP curves) that let it cruise along in traffic and zip when I rev >8k. It is comfortable cruising at 60 whereas every SS bike I've ridden seems to like to idle a 80-90mph. I'm pretty certain the only reason I would want a SS bike is for the sound of the high reving I4 engine.

And while I'm posting... I see this note about the sv650 in wikipedia... "In September 2008, Suzuki Australia introduced the SV650SU, a detuned version of the SV650S, to augment their range of motorcycles that comply with the country's Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAMS)." Hmm... that Aussie acronym LAMS is just one letter away from LAME

Don't look at the Gladuis, even I don't like it, it's too...soft. The '03-'08 SV650S is a very good machine for a lot of conditions. Mine cruises at 6-6.5K rpm at 70-75 mph, which it seems to love to hang at. Oh and that V-twin with a Yoshi pipe nearly sounds like a ducati...aggressive but refine exhaust note

[BlackNinja8]

Ditto the love for the SV. I've really enjoyed mine so far and haven't come across a situation that it was well-suited for. My one gripe would be that while there is plenty of pull through the range, my bike does vibrate a bit more than I'd like once I hit the top of the range (though usually at that point I'm well over 100mph).

I would think the entire 650 class of motorcycles would be a blast to ride and would certainly provide a nice step up from the 250.

[Malicious Logic]

I don't plan on moving up to a Ninja 650 because of the riding position mixed with the styling. The riding position is too upright for me and I thought the handlebars on the 250 were a bit high so I definitely wouldn't like the 650s. I'm also not a big fan of the styling at all.

@Jiggles You pretty much said it all with fewer words. A lot of people that have Ninja 250r's seem to use it as an introduction to SS. I WANT the SS ergo's and the the SS styling so I plan on getting a SS eventually. People don't get a Ninja 650 because the Ninja 650 just isn't the type of bike they want. Don't think it has anything to do with not being enough of an 'upgrade' like the OP suggested. My next bike I want after the Ninja 250r is the SV650. Not the same as a Ninja 650 but still not a SS.

[Carnage]

if I were to up upgrade I would go to the ninja 650. I have not plans on moving up and time soon but if i were to that is the bike I would choose. The new version has been upgraded to make it better then previous versions. I like the way to rides and has ample power for intown riding.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by Malicious Logic

I don't plan on moving up to a Ninja 650 because of the riding position mixed with the styling. The riding position is too upright for me and I thought the handlebars on the 250 were a bit high so I definitely wouldn't like the 650s. I'm also not a big fan of the styling at all.

@Jiggles You pretty much said it all with fewer words. A lot of people that have Ninja 250r's seem to use it as an introduction to SS. I WANT the SS ergo's and the the SS styling so I plan on getting a SS eventually. People don't get a Ninja 650 because the Ninja 650 just isn't the type of bike they want. Don't think it has anything to do with not being enough of an 'upgrade' like the OP suggested. My next bike I want after the Ninja 250r is the SV650. Not the same as a Ninja 650 but still not a SS.

The SV650S I have has the clip-on like bars, which definitely have that lean forward stance.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by Malicious Logic

I don't plan on moving up to a Ninja 650 because of the riding position mixed with the styling. The riding position is too upright for me and I thought the handlebars on the 250 were a bit high so I definitely wouldn't like the 650s. I'm also not a big fan of the styling at all.

@Jiggles You pretty much said it all with fewer words. A lot of people that have Ninja 250r's seem to use it as an introduction to SS. I WANT the SS ergo's and the the SS styling so I plan on getting a SS eventually. People don't get a Ninja 650 because the Ninja 650 just isn't the type of bike they want. Don't think it has anything to do with not being enough of an 'upgrade' like the OP suggested. My next bike I want after the Ninja 250r is the SV650. Not the same as a Ninja 650 but still not a SS.

If you haven't already done so, you should check out www.cycle-ergo.com it allows you to enter different bikes and gives you a visual of the riding positon based on a plethora of factors including your height, weight, and customizations such as clipons, rearsets, etc. If you check out the SV on that site, compare the SV650S with the SV650 and you will see just how different the two ergos are.

[ScorpionNinja]

I'm very happy with my 2009 650R. GIVI touring items/luggage, GPS unit and powerlet plug ins for 3 things (GPS + 2 heated vests (me and GF) better headlight system than the 250R... I can debate everything everyone says/hates on the 650R.

But its POINTLESS.

The 650R isnt the bike for you because you value other things.
It fits me and it matches my values, riding style and usage!!!

[Jiggles]

^ summed up pretty well. The 650 is not competitive with 600s, it was never meant to be.

[ScorpionNinja]

I'll also add, that between last years and this years (2011 + 2012) Kawasaki Demo Days here in Michigan... I've ridden ALL their "sport", "supersport","sporttouring" bikes many times and I dont care what people say on this forum, because its their opinion.
When their opinion isnt backed up by the FACT they've "Rode" that very bike... debating is pointless. Because I Have Rode them, so I have a good idea of what I'm talking about!

Kawasaki makes some Great bikes. I can compare/debate them to the MANY BMW's and TRIUMPH's, Ive also Demo rode over the last 3 years!
(Honda,Yamaha,Suzuki DONT do demo days like Kawasaki does here in Michigan)
So, I cant speak for those other manufactures, for comparison sake to Kawasaki.

So ppl, if your local area offers any Demo Days... get the **** out and ride em'. Then you'll have a much better IDEA of what bike would be better for your next one. Instead of debating on a forum. lol

[captlombardi]

slight thread resurrection but not bad...anyway i am weeks away from getting a 2013 650 in white. i have seen/sat on one in person but based on the reviews alone - be they press intros or from people on forums - it sounds like exactly what i want in a bike. i've only been riding for 3 years but i already "grew out" of the SS bikes. i have an f4i which doesn't have the blingin swag of inverted cartridge showa big piston forks and underseat exhaust but it gave me a taste of the ergos and power. i rode it 400 miles in a weekend and my ass was killin me. i called the seat on the f4i the the taint shredder. i ended up taking the 250r on longer rides and then i wasn't really wanting more power just an even more upright riding position. also call me crazy but i'm into that parallel twin sound...i hope i'm right in liquidating my 2 bikes for the 650, i think i will be.

[Jiggles]

650 is a parallel twin but the stock exhaust is so quiet you won't even hear it

[hybridkid]

I can see myself owning an FZ6 or 650 if the style becomes slightly more aggressive and perhaps a bit lighter. I still have my 08 250R and just purchased an 09 Honda CBR 600rr...I can't believe how light in weight the two bikes feel. I did notice the 650 felt a bit heavier. If the 650r's weight dropped just a tad bit to be comparable, the bike would be my next bike for sport touring.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by hybridkid

I can see myself owning an FZ6 or 650 if the style becomes slightly more aggressive and perhaps a bit lighter. I still have my 08 250R and just purchased an 09 Honda CBR 600rr...I can't believe how light in weight the two bikes feel. I did notice the 650 felt a bit heavier. If the 650r's weight dropped just a tad bit to be comparable, the bike would be my next bike for sport touring.

Not aggressive enough for you?

[cbdallas]

I love the '06 - '07, didn't like the '08 because of the black headlight surround (easily fixed, I suppose). The '09 - '11 put me off because of those weird guages. The '12 is HOTNESS. I love my 650, but as someone mentioned, it can be hard to be smooth with it because the throttle is very twitchy when you're trying to feather it.

I test rode a SV650. Loved it, but the bars had me sitting pretty much like I was on a 600. I'd like them a little lower on the 650, but I also don't want to lay down. I'll just buy a 600 if I wanna do that. My '07 is the perfect commuter & weekend bike for me. Predictable power, very comfortable, and I don't see 500 of them while I'm riding.

[choneofakind]

I would totally ride a 650 if it had some clipons. When I test rode it at the demo day I went to, I loved the bike, but couldn't stand the bars. It felt just like a 250 with more guts.

It's a great bike for power around town and touring/commuting. Not a supersport by any shot, but it's a much more comfy option that still handles very well and has tons of torque down low

[hybridkid]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Not aggressive enough for you?

It's aggressive. But could be a little bit more sporty. However, I'm biased because I am getting ready to seal the deal on one of these:

[Jiggles]

I find it funny when people say "I wish the 650 was more sporty" Kawi has that, its called the zx6r

[Stamatos]

This thread makes me want a 650 but I couldn't afford it without dumping my ninjette and that's out of the question.

[hybridkid]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I find it funny when people say "I wish the 650 was more sporty" Kawi has that, its called the zx6r

Last Saturday, I rode the CBR 600rr and afterwards sat on both 650 and FZ6R. While I was really intrigued by the 650, the FZ6r felt slightly more sporty in the rear and it blends overall with the design better. My opinion though. The new 650r looks great in the front but feels a bit soft in setup. This is a matter of preference. I think the 650r looks great but that rear could have used a slightly sharper design for the rear.

[Mowgli]

If I was planning to do 2 up riding often would I be better on the 650 then compared to a cbr600 or a zx6r? What are these "sport bars"?

[Jiggles]

650 is a position like the 250, 600 is face buried down in the windshield

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by Ninja28

I am just curious on why I hardly see anyone upgrade from a 250 to the 650?

Its a bigger displacement without the Super Sport insurance cost

For me the zx6r is cheaper to insure than the ninja650 even "lams" ninja 650

quote from insurance company "600cc is less than 650cc, more people want the bigger engine for performance oriented riding. The 600cc ($900 a year comprehensive) will be $200 a year cheaper than the 650cc ($1100 a year comprehensive).

quote from insurance company "We have kept the ninja 250r 2012 se ($280 a year comprehensive) to allow the customer a cheap way to introduce someone to motorcycle riding. and to keep it relatively cheap"

For me its the looks then aftermarket parts, performance potential.

[Jiggles]

Wtf, my 650 was far cheaper to insure than my 25", $200/yr

[ninja250r81]

well learning to drive in this country you can't drive a forced induction or v8 car.

but you can drive a turbo diesel, v6, inline 6 or less.

but the catch is you can drive a 215kw v6 commodore but cant drive a 117kw v8 commodore

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Mowgli

What are these "sport bars"?

basically clipons to get you foreward and down instead of the stock bars that feel like a mountain bike or dirt bike.

[seanshawnS]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

basically clipons to get you foreward and down instead of the stock bars that feel like a mountain bike or dirt bike.

At which point we're talking about an sv650s?

[choneofakind]

Maybe. The power delivery on the 650S and the 650R is different. It comes down to preference after test rides.

I think the SV650S has linked front brakes instead of a separate line to each caliper? I read something about doing a brake swap on those because having one brake line to one caliper and then one brake line to connect the calipers doesn't brake as strongly.

I'm a fan of the SV650SF though.

[BlackNinja8]

Power delivery on the S and naked versions are the same. The only real difference is the riding position due to the clipons vs bars.

FYI - I have the S model with lower fairings added aftermarket to look like the SF model. The lower fairings are available for any of the 03+ S models for around $750 OEM.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

Power delivery on the S and naked versions are the same. The only real difference is the riding position due to the clipons vs bars.

Sorry if I confused you, I meant power delivery between the Ninja 650R and the SV650

[BlackNinja8]

ooohhh...yes that makes sense now that I re-read your comments.

[2smkelvr]

I got to say I like the placement of the rear shock on the 650

make it single sided swingarm, put in an inline 4 650 that

supercedes the 636 and add a lot of electronis stuff found

on the bmw 1000rr and then maybe make it a naked street fighter

and then you would have a high selling possibly #1 selling naked bike on the

market. But if such a bike existed I think no one would be buying a 600cc

sport bike or zx6r. That would be interesting a highly advanced 650 naked

bike out selling and outperforming 600cc sport bikes with full fairing.

[2smkelvr]

I also think if there is an easy, light way of mounting the rear shock low and in

the middle of the motorcycle possible beneath the engine this could lower the

center of gravity and provide a performance gain although slight everything

counts same concept of mid engine super cars

[Compooky]

Originally Posted by 2smkelvr

I got to say I like the placement of the rear shock on the 650

make it single sided swingarm, put in an inline 4 650 that

supercedes the 636 and add a lot of electronis stuff found

on the bmw 1000rr and then maybe make it a naked street fighter

and then you would have a high selling possibly #1 selling naked bike on the

market. But if such a bike existed I think no one would be buying a 600cc

sport bike or zx6r. That would be interesting a highly advanced 650 naked

bike out selling and outperforming 600cc sport bikes with full fairing.

Also add $3000-$4000 to the price tag.

[2smkelvr]

at adding 3000 to the price that would put it at 11299 about the the same price of a supersport 1000

There wouldn't be a huge increase in material in fact the single sided

swingarm could save on material the main cost would come in the engineering

department and retooling of equipment. Would also be nice to find out what

hp numbers an inline 650 would run or maybe just reference to a 636 with a

big bore kit If kawasaki could do it for 9-9500 it might work, and to save on

production costs you could use the same engine in the zx6r


Here is a prime example of why business and regulation supercedes

motorcycle enthusiasts wants and needs There is a very small amount of

250cc 2 strokes made its funny how something soon to be an antique

can still outperform anything available in its current displacement class being

made in 2013

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by 2smkelvr

Here is a prime example of why business and regulation supercedes motorcycle enthusiasts wants and needs

it's a business. no **** they aren't going to sell models that won't sell enough to make them money, or else they would go out of business.

A bike that you're talking about would basically be a brand new supersport bike with a completely new engine, not a modified 650. That would take loads of R&D and marketing, and would likely just compete with their own model, the ZX6R. It would be pointless. You aren't just going to stick a randomly sized engine in a sport bike frame and expect it to be feasible and blow away the competition and whatnot. There's more to a supersport than just a bigger engine. The frame is stiffer, the suspension geometry is different, etc.

Gah!

[Compooky]

2 strokes are uncommon because of rising emissions laws. Adding $3000 would put it at about the same price as a zx6r. The 650r will forever be the awkward middle child for the budget minded.

[2smkelvr]

I just looked at the msrp of the 2012 ninja 600cc 10299 jesus

The last big bike i had was a 2004 r6

man how the prices have gone up

wasn't it just a few years back you could get a brand new 1000cc for

a msrp of 9-10000?

What has been the msrp % increase in the last 5 years of 600cc and 1000cc bikes?

Honestly despite the r6 I had having around 100hp I still wasn't impressed

and was expecting a 600cc to have enough power to do roll on wheelies

with stock gearing and not popping the clutch

I was of coarse an idiot and this was the first 600cc I owned

I was very quickly regretful not buying a 1000cc

although 2 stroke small bikes can also do roll on wheelies

I wish the yearly % msrp raise in price was also equal to the yearly HP % increase

I did some interesting calculations as well

A 2012 ninja 600cc at 421.2lbs and 128hp has a power to weight ratio of 0.3038936372

A 1998 Suzuki RGV 500cc at 286lbs and 180hp has a power to weight ratio of 0.6293706294

A 1994 Honda NSR 250 with 300cc big bore kit at 288lbs and 70hp has a power to weight ratio of 0.2430555556

So looks like emissions or epa won the motorcycle development war and not technology

Sure would be interesting to see what kind of 2 stroke bikes today manufacturers would be producing if no ban was implemented

The old 500cc bike even beats the modern 2012 gsxr 1000cc in corners
"Even by today’s standards and despite all the new technology around now, money can’t buy a machine that handles like this 500cc GP bike."
"It’s so light that at a standstill you can straddle the bike and lift the front wheel clean off the ground by pulling up on the bars, like a pushbike."
Full story here http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/Ne...-vs-gsx-r1000/

[sharky nrk]

Recent Motorcyclist has 650 class bikes (sport and adventure) as the cover. Very positive on the 650R. Looks to out perform the FZ6R which is a detuned inline 4. Some may not like their character, but for daily and all around use, the twins really work well.

[EsrTek]

Someone didn't fully read that article, cause it clearly states they choose the FZ6R over the Ninja 650. So it can't out perform it if it lost to it.

[sharky nrk]

^^ also kinda silly to compare a GP bike (a prototype race bike) to a street bike and not expect that kinda response. The two strokes offer equivalent peak power to a bike twice their dispacement, and much less weight penalty but are peaky and relatively unusable powerbands for non-performance use. That really does help their dynamics but it is fair to say that riding an RC213V would likely deliver similar (oh my goodness its so rapid/responsive/agile) comments compared to a showroom floor 1000RR.