Repair Shops - Philosophical Questions

[athimmel]

Why, oh why?...

...do shops want to charge $160 for a 600 mile oil change?
...do they tell me they don't have a "customer waiting" policy and you have to leave the bike all day?
...does it take all day to do a simple oil change?
...doesn't someone invent "Jiffy Lube" for motorcycles?
...do mechanically disinclined people like myself fear working on their own bikes?


(Please add your own if you are inclined to do so!)

[backinthesaddleagain]

One thing I have always thought about quick lube places (and I do use them for my jeep). Is they pull the oil plug, pull the filter, and as soon as the oil flowing out slows to a drip they put the new filter on and the plug back in. Back when I did my own work I would leave to plug out while I rotated the tires, did some other mechanical work, or ate lunch.

One time in a hasty decision I brought my Infiniti G35 coupe to a honda dealer's quick lube facility. Months earlier I changed the air filter myself which was easy to remove and hard to put back (in hindsight 2 people could probably replace it easily, or there is some trick). Anyway I forget to tell the guy to skip the air filter inspection. I lookup and he has the airfilter in his hand. About 40 minutes later he put it back in after several attempts, many removed fasteners, and alot of his sweat on the invoice. I quickly looked under the hood to make sure all was well before driving off.

[Apex]

I normally do my own oil changes. They are very easy to do and you know what has been done.

Heck, my car is close to a clutch change, and I have everything ready to go except the pressure plate and disc. Once I get those, the car will go on the ramps, I'll pull the transmission, change the fluid in the tranny, then bolt everything back up. No problem. Should only take a day to do.


Here is mine:
WHY OH WHY...

...can't they make a cheap motorcycle with some good power?
...did Ford pull the Focus Hatchback from its lineup?
...can't I find a 17" wheel upgrade for my ninja 250?

[BlueTyke]

I would question the shop. I just called Pete's about Tyke's engine rebuild check up and they said I can bring it in for a walk in on Saturday (rain or shine for me... cold or no cold). Last time (or rather the first time I got it done) it cost me abotu 89 dollars.

They should be doing more than just changing the oil. They should be checking out the bike to make sure everything is operating correctly. No internal leaks and the like. Especially for the first one. I know there are people here who do their own but they also know what to look for. I am not mechanically inclined. So I use the shops.

[tinng321]

I don't trust those 15 min oil change places.
If I have the tools I will do the work myself.
If I can't then I would drive my car to CT and ask my uncle to do it.
My best friend brought his Lumina to a jeffy lube. They forgot to refil the engine with oil. He drove off and guess what? The engine was history.

plus, they use the cheapest oil and filter they could get their hands on.

[athimmel]

OK then...modification....

Why, oh why...doesn't someone create an quick oil change facility for motorcycles and/or cars that actually does things quickly and well?

[Apex]

Originally Posted by athimmel

OK then...modification....

Why, oh why...doesn't someone create an quick oil change facility for motorcycles and/or cars that actually does things quickly and well?

quickly and well? Oxymoron.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Originally Posted by athimmel

Why, oh why?...

...do shops want to charge $160 for a 600 mile oil change?
...do they tell me they don't have a "customer waiting" policy and you have to leave the bike all day?
...does it take all day to do a simple oil change?
...doesn't someone invent "Jiffy Lube" for motorcycles?
...do mechanically disinclined people like myself fear working on their own bikes?


(Please add your own if you are inclined to do so!)

1. Because we have to make money somewhere.
2. Because it's a pain in the ass to have you hover around us in the shop.
3. You aren't the only one who wants something serviced.
4. IDK, that's actually a good idea.
5. It's harder than it looks.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by athimmel

Why, oh why?...

...do shops want to charge $160 for a 600 mile oil change?
...do they tell me they don't have a "customer waiting" policy and you have to leave the bike all day?
...does it take all day to do a simple oil change?
...doesn't someone invent "Jiffy Lube" for motorcycles?
...do mechanically disinclined people like myself fear working on their own bikes?


(Please add your own if you are inclined to do so!)

It's time to learn to do things yourself. What are you going to do if something happens, you're on the road,and you're far from home?

KKKKim is giving repair lessons. Funny thing it's $160 to learn how to change your oil but you will know how after the first time.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

It's time to learn to do things yourself. What are you going to do if something happens, you're on the road,and you're far from home?

KKKKim is giving repair lessons. Funny thing it's $160 to learn how to change your oil but you will know how after the first time.

To me, that is worth the investment. Or find someone near you that has a 250 and see if they'd show you.

Just going to the dealer and getting the service manual can do wonders. Read into it, also look online for information.

Here you go:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Engine_Oil

[Daeldren]

Well basic maintenance on any vehicle is not that difficult if you are somewhat mechanically inclined, however you would be surprised at how many people out there have no idea how to do a basic oil change. Personally I enjoy working on my vehicles and it is cheaper for me to do so, I always pick me up some beer to when Im doing some home vehicle maintenance. But I understand that a lot of people out there don't have the tools or mechanical knowledge, thats why they have shops that do that for them.

Plus I can decide what parts to put in my vehicle then, only the best for my precious babies.

Now valve adjustments I would probably take to the shop or try and get someone to walk me through it just because I have never done that before, but for me it just is not worth it to have a bike mechanic change my fluids at a $70.00 hour rate (when I have the tools and know how to do it).

Its mostly a matter of motivation for me, I'm a lazy bastard (though I have been more motivated recently, probably because my new job requires me to be more self-motivated.)

[athimmel]

Just got a quote from another shop: $240. Do I hear $300?

[TnNinjaGirl]

How come mechanics can't charge a fee to fix something but it is perfectly acceptable for a plumber, A/C repairman or a state senator can make a killing? I'm sorry, but has anyone looked at the price of tools lately?

I'll be the first to admit that dealerships charge a lot. They really do. In fact most of their mechanics are not trained anymore than the fella down at Jiffy Lube or your local Walmart. One of the reasons they charge alot is liability. We get hit with blame all the time for the poor maintenance of people's cars. If you don't change the oil in 30,000 miles there isn't much we can do about it. As soon as that motor starts knocking, the customer starts knocking.

I feel horrible that you guys are not happy with the service per price you pay at your dealerships. It shouldn't be this way. My suggestion is to find a service provider that you are happy paying for the price you ask.

A mechanic is a service industry. If you want the service, you pay the price. If you don't want it, then don't pay it, but please don't start complaining when you have your car/bike half apart and don't have the tools/skill to put it back together. /rant

[athimmel]

Not saying that a mechanic can't or shouldn't charge a fee for service. But why should one charge $170 and another charge $250 for the same service? And what is it about a 600 mile oil change that is worth so much more than a 20000 mile service on a car? I would just like the mechanic to explain to me why it costs what it does. How many actual labor hours are you spending on the bike? How much is labor per hour? What are you charging for parts? What makes your service worth $80 more than the dealership 10 miles away?

I am always prepared to pay for good service. Just explain why your service is good. That's all I ask.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Those are all fair questions and should be answered by your mechanic in verbal, and better yet, writing. Certified mechanics are actually bound to law to explain certain things and provide proof of work, used parts, removed parts, etc... to customers. I know this is true for ASE, and I assume it's true for certified motorcycle mechanics as it's with the same group who certifies said mechanic.

From experience, cost of service usually has to do with overhead. Be weary that an expensive shop in the middle of town may be no better than Joe on the corner of Maple and Walnut. I think that was the point you were trying to make. It is a true point and the best answer I can give is research your local mechanics. Talk to some bikers who have had good experiences at a good price somewhere.

I can't say that repair shops won't try to take advantage of you. It is a small few who ruin it for the rest of us. I just ask that you please don't lump us into one group.

By you I mean the customer.

[Sailariel]

I am a bicycle mechanic. I have about $6000.00 invested in tools. I have a space which needs to be heated in the winter (I live in Maine) and cooled in the summer. I have electric bills. I also spent many dollars going to school to learn my craft. What sort of a rate should I charge my customers? I am known for doing precision work. The bikes I service consistantly win races. What should I charge? The going rate is $65.00 an hour. A bike that leaves my shop is like new. Now to motorcycles. I do my own work. The work that needs special tools is left to the dealer. Kawasaki special tools would cost me about $1000.00. To me, 1K is not money well spent. What if I got a wild hair up my a-- and decided to buy a Ducati? The Kawa tools would be junk. Having been in the business a number of years, I have no problem justifying the costs. Costs will be up as long as companies insist on special tools and mandatory courses to service a particular marque. I had to buy all the special tools for Suntour, Campagnolo. SRAM. and Shimano--not to mention the schools I had to attend to be properly certified. We are talking dollars. Sorry folks--There ain`t such thing as a free lunch.

[athimmel]

Again, I was not looking for a free lunch. I just wanted to understand why there is such a huge difference between two local shops. There is no denying the expense of owning and operating a shop. But shouldn't there be at least a modicum of consistency?
Posted via Mobile Device

[capt_bugaloo]

I actually have seen a "Jiffy Lube" style place for motorcycles!

It's in Vancouver on SW Marine Drive. I wandered by it while I was in Vancouver for some computer training (so I did not have my motorcycle with me).

They specialize in doing standard maintenance on all brands of motorcycles: Harleys, the Japanese 4, Ducati, Triumph, you name it. You bring your motorcycle in, and the mechanics do oil changes, cable adjustment and lubing, chain adjusting, brake pads and fluids, etc. - and they do it while you wait, just like a Jiffy Lube!

I think for anything more complicated like valve adjustment or fork seals, you had to book ahead. And the prices were very reasonable - like half what my local Kawasaki stealership charges.

They also sold riding gear and accessories. I imagine that during the spring through summer they are very busy, but in the winter they probably barely survive on the gear sales and occasional service for the year-round riders.

[py2e]

$330, try to beat that.

I'm going to do the 600 miles service myself. I used the money to buy a pitbull forward handle rear stand, some wix filters, and castrol gtx oil.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BlueTyke]

I may be able to help a little with the charges and such... From what I understand from Phil. (Motorcycles could be different so this is for cars)

It all depends on the job. There is a guide out there that has determined how long it should take the average mechanic to fix something. Say an engine needs to be replace. Well this guide says that it takes 8 hours to fix it. That is what you are charged at their billable rate. This is regardless weither or not the mechanic takes 8 hrs, if they finish sooner more power to 'em you still get billed 8 hours. If it takes longer than 8 hrs, good for you, you get billed 8 hrs. So along with parts your getting charged that rate.

Now if their shop rate is say $80 bucks and it's an hour and a half job your getting charged $120 for that labor alone, regardless if they took that full time to do so.

Also remember that Motorcycle Repair is a specialized trade. Just like a BMW mechanic is specilaized. They are trained and take classes for that.

So along with checking your oil and making sure everything is runing okay they check the bike in general. Your chain might need adjusting same with the valves and so on. They are doing more than just changing your oil. Look in your service manual. Everything that is marked that should be done at 600 they should be checking/adjusting etc. There is a lot to go over.

As a side note... I can change the oil, air filter, tires, and check my fluids in my car and I have done so in the past. Currently I have no space to do so... Which I do need to do that. I do not, however, trust myself to do it to my bike (with the exception of checking fluids). Not yet anyway. I probably will get to the point where I could do it but at this point in time, no. Especially for the 'critical' check ups... I just don't know what to look for.

[Cali619]

Adam did you ask them the break down the details for the fee? I am thinking they are also planning to perform the 600 mile maintenance check on all the bolts, breaks, levers lights etc. But anywho, all the quotes you have been getting are way to high.

[xTKx]

Some may have mixed feelings about this, but I actually pay about $15 extra on top of my bike payment for the dealer's maintenance program. It seems dumb, but they really do treat you like a "VIP" when they know you've got the program. I get all maintenance, oil changes, etc. done absolutely free and the program is transferable in case I need to sell my ninjette.
In fact, just a couple weeks ago I lost the bolt to my gear shift pedal in the middle of a turn ... I know, I know, don't ask how I lost it, just find the thread and post there . Anyway, I got the bike loaded and took it to my work. The next day the dealer came to pick it up, they got a bolt, put it back in, etc at absolutely no cost. Pretty good deal IMO.

[athimmel]

Originally Posted by Cali619

Adam did you ask them the break down the details for the fee? I am thinking they are also planning to perform the 600 mile maintenance check on all the bolts, breaks, levers lights etc. But anywho, all the quotes you have been getting are way to high.

Just got the quote from the local dealer for around $190. He said that it is the oil and filter change, but also rechecking all of the connections, torque readings, etc. to make sure that everything is good after the first 600 miles.

To xTKx....I wish they had offered me something like that. I might have gone for it!

[zail]

I'm a bit confused here - are you refering to the 600 mile initial service on your bike?? Mine was free at the Kawa dealer where I bought the bike - I only had to pay consumable costs - oil and filter IIRC.. They even drilled out the bolt on the bar ends (One of them refused to come off when I tried!) and fitted the R&G bar ends for me for nowt...

[athimmel]

Yes, zail. My dealer didn't offer the freebie. It would have been nice, but they didn't.

[zail]

That's rubbish after sales service. Nasty dealer

[athimmel]

Actually, they were very nice. Just wasn't part of the deal.

[zail]

Fair enough...

[BlueTyke]

Zail... This is the USA... They only give out free fast food ><'

[athimmel]

No...they give out free rain checks!

[zail]

ah.. that explains it then... (although clearly that's only for US citizens as I had to pay for mine when I was there....)

[bogdanb]

Originally Posted by py2e

$330, try to beat that.

I'm going to do the 600 miles service myself. I used the money to buy a pitbull forward handle rear stand, some wix filters, and castrol gtx oil.
Posted via Mobile Device

My bike ( which I bought a week ago, second hand ) is 1700 lm ~ 1000 miles. Don't know for sure whether the oil has been changed or no. No matter what first owner told.
My biggest problem is that , here in Bulgaria we do not have a Kawasaki dealer.
So I have to do it myself...
Is it so difficult?

[zail]

bogdanb - have a look at:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10780

[bogdanb]

Originally Posted by zail

bogdanb - have a look at:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10780

Thank you once again Zail.

Does that concerns the warranty? I mean if the oil change has not been done in official dealer or warranty approved service, Kawasaki Austria might reject the warranty...

[wyckedflesh]

Originally Posted by athimmel

Why, oh why?...

...do shops want to charge $160 for a 600 mile oil change?
See your manual for the description of the 600 Mile Service. Its generally 2 Hours plus Consumables.(avg)

...do they tell me they don't have a "customer waiting" policy and you have to leave the bike all day?
Fewer Techs, more bikes, plus new sales

...does it take all day to do a simple oil change?
See Above

...doesn't someone invent "Jiffy Lube" for motorcycles?
http://www.mybikersbay.com/

...do mechanically disinclined people like myself fear working on their own bikes?
Dunno, after the first service I do the rest.

(Please add your own if you are inclined to do so!)

Your "Jiffy Lube" has 2-4 people work your car at a time...a bike shop has 1.

There are at least 20 places between my house, and the nearest bike service shop to have my car serviced. To go to the next actual Dealer from there, at least 50.

A "Jiffy Lube" can service about 200 cars per day if not more. The same square footage...oh, wait that doesn't work because your dealer also has showroom space as well...

Other then a mud guard and engine cover, your car does not require the disassemble of your fairings, and then reassembly thereafter...

Now here is the biggie folks...The Commercial General Liability policy for a car service location is anywhere from 1/4 to 2/3rds LESS then for a motorcycle shop. If you accidentally get oil on the tire of a car, it is not likely, on average, to cause injury...can you say the same for a motorcycle? Having a faulty oil filter split as the operator is going down the road might kill the motor on a car, but could very possibly kill the rider of the bike...

[andrewwoo]

what oil do you people use? 10w40 for motorcycles?

[bogdanb]

Originally Posted by andrewwoo

what oil do you people use? 10w40 for motorcycles?

Just bought it from the local dealer - as hе recomends it - SAE 2W-60, I know it's not the one mentioned in the manual, but I suppose he knows what is he selling.

[wyckedflesh]

Originally Posted by andrewwoo

what oil do you people use? 10w40 for motorcycles?

Depends on the temps your normally riding in. 10w40 is the generally accepted, but if your like me, hitting 100+ temps for the next 5 months, run the recommended 20w50.