Impressive Emergency Stop

[akima]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by akima

Link to original page on YouTube.

Not really that impressive.

[cadd]

Do DRZ SM come with abs?

[crazymadbastard]

Not impressive, stalled the bike, was not going that fast. Just saying he claimed practice makes perfect and this was not perfect.

[csmith12]

Man, tough crowd...

Look closer fellow riders, what is impressive is the stopping distance from 45 -> 0 without locking either wheel. Sure, it wasn't "prefect" but it was 1000% better than the alternative. ijs...

Any time we have to unexpectedly hit the brakes hard, don't crash and don't hit the object being avoided, it's good in my book.

Good find Akima!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Man, tough crowd...

Look closer fellow riders, what is impressive is the stopping distance from 45 -> 0 without locking either wheel. Sure, it wasn't "prefect" but it was 1000% better than the alternative. ijs...

Any time we have to unexpectedly hit the brakes hard, don't crash and don't hit the object being avoided, it's good in my book.

Good find Akima!

45kph = ~28mph

still good control over the brake lever, even if he didn't pull the clutch in

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Man, tough crowd...

Look closer fellow riders, what is impressive is the stopping distance from 45 -> 0 without locking either wheel. Sure, it wasn't "prefect" but it was 1000% better than the alternative. ijs...

Any time we have to unexpectedly hit the brakes hard, don't crash and don't hit the object being avoided, it's good in my book.

Good find Akima!

Yes look closer

[csmith12]

Hearing the gent talk at the end of the vid pretty much gives it away that it is kph, but still don't change anything. For those needing it "mericanized".... Rider when from 28mph to 0mph in the width of a traffic lane without sliding a wheel. And that right there... is MSF approved.

EDIT: Lemme add this nugget as food for thought... many riders on the track don't brake that hard.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hearing the gent talk at the end of the vid pretty much gives it away that it is kph, but still don't change anything. Rider when from 28mph to 0mph in the width of a traffic lane without sliding a wheel. And that right there... is MSF approved.

It a lot farther then a traffic lane. Yes good job for him stopping in time but he could have done a lot better so posting saying this is a perfect stop is a little naïve on his part.

[crazymadbastard]

I figured about 1.5 seconds, 46 to 0 would be about 0.86gs

http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_...alculator.aspx

Not sure how that rates ,or how I would rate.

[csmith12]

Ok fine.... a traffic lane and some odd feet (or would ya'lls prefer meters?). Pretty hard to tell from the vid but it's close enough, geeezzz.....

Ya'lls a bunch of Negative Nancy's up in here.

[akima]

I thought his technique was good (didn't lock either brake, didn't visibly tense, didn't snap on the front brake). I think he applied smooth progressive braking.

I was more impressed by his prompt reaction to the seeing those people step out.

Something else he did right was he didn't target fixate on the area where he didn't want to go (inside the crossing). He stopped the bike well before the crossing. I've seen plenty of videos of riders either stopping directly next to the thing they were trying not to hit or actually hitting it because of target fixation.

I do think the guy was impressive, but not "perfect". Some things he could've done better: slowed his speed a little in anticipation of the danger. There was a car there that may have pulled out and there was visibly a pedestrian crossing with an obscured pavement leading onto it. At the very least I think he should have covered his front brake lever. Personally I think it would have been better to have very gently engaged the brakes, giving him 2 advantages:
* shaved off a little speed as he approached the danger.
* preloaded his front suspension allowing him to get hard on the brakes much faster.

(goes without saying that it's stupid riding without gloves at 30mph on public roads)

In that situation I don't think it matters he stalled it. He restarted the engine straight away. In the UK, you don't fail your test if you stall the bike during an emergency stop.

I think his emergency braking is well above the standard of the average rider I see on the road. I think his situational awareness could be improved (better prediction of hazards).

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ok fine.... a traffic lane and some odd feet (or would ya'lls prefer meters?). Pretty hard to tell from the vid but it's close enough, geeezzz.....

Ya'lls a bunch of Negative Nancy's up in here.

Nothing negative its a simple discussion in regards to riding

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

EDIT: Lemme add this nugget as food for thought... many riders on the track don't brake that hard.

You could argue that braking that hard would be overbraking at the track until an advanced level since not many people in I and certainly not in N would have the drive onto a straight to really warrant that kind of braking. I brake like that at the track and find that I've over-braked semi-regularly. On the upside it gets me past the people who flew by me on the straight I don't belong in novice anymore

If I were an MSF instructor I'd pass him with flying colors even though the test included "not stalling" here. If it's an emergency stop the stop is what's important, having presence of mind to pull the clutch and downshift during it is just an added bonus but isn't necessary for survival

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Nothing negative its a simple discussion in regards to riding

True.

I think NSF teaches to pull in clutch to avoid fighting engine torque for maximum braking.

I think if the rider had pulled in the clutch, he would have locked up as more force would have been used on the discs versus fighting the engine.

jus sayin

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by akima

In that situation I don't think it matters he stalled it. He restarted the engine straight away. In the UK, you don't fail your test if you stall the bike during an emergency stop.

I think his emergency braking is well above the standard of the average rider I see on the road. I think his situational awareness could be improved (better prediction of hazards).

On the MSF range, I can't fail a rider for stalling the bike during the emergency stop portion of the test, but I do take points off.

During the BRC ebrake drill, the target speed is 15mph, in 2ng gear and the stopping distance between the cones looks to be about the same distance in this video. So this rider is going about twice the speed and stops in the same distance that many riders have trouble with lock ups or overshoot the cone at half the speed. That is what I am really trying to get at I guess...

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

True.

I think NSF teaches to pull in clutch to avoid fighting engine torque for maximum braking.

I think if the rider had pulled in the clutch, he would have locked up as more force would have been used on the discs versus fighting the engine.

jus sayin

Rear wheel was clean off the ground, clutch or no clutch makes no difference there since that only affects the rear wheel.

not pulling the clutch allows the engine braking to help slow you down, which is why downshifting is a good idea to do simultaneously if you can. MSF taught me to not pull the clutch until I'm about to stop because it helps provide extra braking force...I think, it has been ~3 years since I've taken it

edit: I think I remember going way faster than I should have on the emergency stop portion of the test and almost using up all of the space available because of it, it's amazing how easy the msf tests are now compared to how much focus they required then.

[spooph]

@csmith12 as a fellow MSF rider coach I think this was perfectly executed and better than most people would do saving both the rider and the pedestrians from injury and/or death. That is the goal after all! Sure, we can always improve, and by that standard, there should be no "perfect" emergency brake, as by definition that would require the stop not have a single thing to be improved, which I believe to be outside the boundaries of any human being, and I doubt any of the negative nancy's could do any better. This is a great example of proper vigilance and a goal for all of us to strive for.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Nothing negative its a simple discussion in regards to riding

It's all good mang. A while back, I asked Akima to find "good" riding videos instead of all the crash videos she normally linked. She has found a few so far.

[akima]

Originally Posted by csmith12

It's all good mang. A while back, I asked Akima to find "good" riding videos instead of all the crash videos she normally linked. She has found a few so far.

I still like my crash videos. Prolly good to balance them out a bit with these type of vids too though

[250rr]

Impressive in that he wasn't practicing, which means he wasn't ready. Then again, I'm a bad motorcycle rider so what do I know?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

You could argue that braking that hard would be overbraking at the track until an advanced level

Your right, great thinking! And yet your comment further supports the subtle, yet "impressive" aspect of this vid.

Maybe I am seeing more than what is really there. I am open minded enough to accept that but at this point, we have 2 MSF coaches and 1 track coach saying it was a good stop. I aint really sure what else everyone needs.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Your right, great thinking! And yet your comment further supports the subtle, yet "impressive" aspect of this vid.

Maybe I am seeing more than what is really there. I am open minded enough to accept that but at this point, we have 2 MSF coaches and 1 track coach saying it was a good stop. I aint really sure what else everyone needs.

Its not a debate if it was a (good) stop. Its if its a (perfect) stop like he is trying to say with his practice makes perfect intro.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Its not a debate if it was a (good) stop. Its if its a (perfect) stop like if is trying to say with his practice makes perfect intro.

No doubt Mr. Fish. Nobody's perfect, I think we can move past that. To dwell on such superficial things is not my style.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Your right, great thinking! And yet your comment further supports the subtle, yet "impressive" aspect of this vid.

Maybe I am seeing more than what is really there. I am open minded enough to accept that but at this point, we have 2 MSF coaches and 1 track coach saying it was a good stop. I aint really sure what else everyone needs.

But once more this has a lot to do with my sig. just think if he been going 46mph and not 28mph this video may have been different.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

No doubt Mr. Fish. Nobody's perfect, I think we can move past that. To dwell on such superficial things is not my style.

Its mine I am always looking at the mistakes to improve my riding. Since we can agree even a simple one on a bike can end bad.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by fishdip

But once more this has a lot to do with my sig. just think if he been going 46mph and not 28mph this video may have been different.

But he wasn't.... I don't dwell on "what if's" either, it's a waste of time.

Originally Posted by fishdip

Its mine I am always looking at the mistakes to improve my riding. Since we can agree even a simple one on a bike can end bad.

There are 2 paths to improvements. The bad AND the good. So you're a pessimist, that's fair enough.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

But he wasn't.... I don't dwell on "what if's" either, it's a waste of time.



There are 2 paths to improvements. The bad AND the good. So you're a pessimist, that's fair enough.

Its not a what if's. I am looking at the fact he was operating the bike at a good speed for the road. The fact he was looking ahead for objects and items that may become a issue. All of this is what made it possible for him to stop in time. working on your situational awareness is just as important as practicing safety stops. He made the choice to ride at that speed and same with him practicing his emergency stops. I think a lot of riders forget most practices they do is from 40 and under in a parking lot. But they ride at 70+ every day.

[chemist]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Rear wheel was clean off the ground, clutch or no clutch makes no difference there since that only affects the rear wheel.

not pulling the clutch allows the engine braking to help slow you down, which is why downshifting is a good idea to do simultaneously if you can. MSF taught me to not pull the clutch until I'm about to stop because it helps provide extra braking force...I think, it has been ~3 years since I've taken it

edit: I think I remember going way faster than I should have on the emergency stop portion of the test and almost using up all of the space available because of it, it's amazing how easy the msf tests are now compared to how much focus they required then.

According to David boughs book proficient motorcycling. "It helps to squeeze the clutch during a quick stop, so you can concentrate on the brakes and keep the engine from locking up the rear wheel." Pg 77

no expert here but currently still keeping both levers covered while I ride but the clutch lever had caught my attention and this seems to validate a small need to keep it covered?

All that being said, it seems like with light sportsbikes the rear brake is pretty useless unless slick conditions. So I don't plan on using rear brake much for quick stops anyway.

[Sirref]

oh, that would be the case if you're using both brakes. Using engine braking on the rear instead of rear brake is much more comfortable to me outside of parking lot scenarios

in this case with the rear off the ground it really makes no difference

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by chemist

All that being said, it seems like with light sportsbikes the rear brake is pretty useless unless slick conditions. So I don't plan on using rear brake much for quick stops anyway.

You can not be more wrong.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by fishdip

You can not be more wrong.

While I agree with you, you have to recognize that chemist is a "eager learning" rider. You almost have to do more than just say he is wrong, but also help him understand why.

[chemist]

Originally Posted by fishdip

You can not be more wrong.

Ok, I'll play and admittedly I am quite clueless. "When the rear brake is applied on a light sportbije with just a solo rider, it is easy to skid the tire. If you realize your lightweight sportbike tends to slide the rear tire even with just a light Dab on the pedal, ignore the rear brake and just use the front brake." -David hough
I could theoretically do a front wheel stoppie with 100% braking force on front wheel and rear wheel in air.

Now I know msf and other charts have proven that both brakes smoothly applied is a quicker stop and maybe David hough is compromising with an easier slightly less safe route that is simpler? Not sure but interested I. Your thoughts

Edit: sorry for spelling on phone


@Sirref- thanks man! Makes sense

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by chemist

Now I know msf and other charts have proven that both brakes smoothly applied is a quicker stop and maybe David hough is compromising with an easier slightly less safe route that is simpler? Not sure but interested I. Your thoughts

MSF teaches for all kinds of bikes and riding, sportbikes tend to have stronger brakes than cruisers which rely more on using both brakes because the fronts don't put down as much braking force and the bikes tend to weigh more. You'll still come to a complete stop quicker by using both brakes so long as they are used properly (progressive addition, no grabbing grabbing leads to crashing (unless you have abs, but bad habits are bad in the long run))

Theoretically the fastest way to stop any bike, sportbike included is to use both brakes with engine braking. It is indeed easy to lock up the rear in this scenario though which is a reason why many, like myself, tend to not use the rear brake often. That and I tend to brake hard enough at the track to have the rear hop slightly as it is so touching the rear brake on corner entry would have me backing it in

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by chemist

Ok, I'll play and admittedly I am quite clueless. "When the rear brake is applied on a light sportbije with just a solo rider, it is easy to skid the tire. If you realize your lightweight sportbike tends to slide the rear tire even with just a light Dab on the pedal, ignore the rear brake and just use the front brake." -David hough
I could theoretically do a front wheel stoppie with 100% braking force on front wheel and rear wheel in air.

Now I know msf and other charts have proven that both brakes smoothly applied is a quicker stop and maybe David hough is compromising with an easier slightly less safe route that is simpler? Not sure but interested I. Your thoughts

Edit: sorry for spelling on phone


@Sirref- thanks man! Makes sense

Id love to see you use 100% braking force on the front and not lock it. The same is with the back brake. It is very easy to use 100% forces because you are smashing down with your foot. I think this is from ppl learning to drive in a car first.

[Sirref]

Yeah, gotta be smooth with it. Not slow but more add it evenly rather than all at once

that goes for cars as well

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Yeah, gotta be smooth with it. Not slow but more add it evenly rather than all at once

that goes for cars as well

Yes but smashing the brake in a car usually is not as bad as smashing the brakes on a bike.

[Sirref]

That's true but for two reasons
1. you're not gonna flip, fall, or ruin your week if you lock the brakes in a car. Instead you'll slide, hopefully not into anything.
2. ABS is much more prevalent in cars than bikes

The fact that proper application of brakes still produces better stopping distances in a car should say something. Particularly to anyone interested in performance driving

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by Sirref

That's true but for two reasons
1. you're not gonna flip, fall, or ruin your week if you lock the brakes in a car. Instead you'll slide, hopefully not into anything.
2. ABS is much more prevalent in cars than bikes

The fact that proper application of brakes still produces better stopping distances in a car should say something. Particularly to anyone interested in performance driving

You are correct.

[chemist]

Originally Posted by Sirref

MSF teaches for all kinds of bikes and riding, sportbikes tend to have stronger brakes than cruisers which rely more on using both brakes because the fronts don't put down as much braking force and the bikes tend to weigh more. You'll still come to a complete stop quicker by using both brakes so long as they are used properly (progressive addition, no grabbing grabbing leads to crashing (unless you have abs, but bad habits are bad in the long run))

Theoretically the fastest way to stop any bike, sportbike included is to use both brakes with engine braking. It is indeed easy to lock up the rear in this scenario though which is a reason why many, like myself, tend to not use the rear brake often. That and I tend to brake hard enough at the track to have the rear hop slightly as it is so touching the rear brake on corner entry would have me backing it in

So, I think this is what David Hough is hinting at. Yes, in theory, braking with both brakes is the best option for stopping the quickest. Which gives me pause as I want to practice the best method especially if I am not always going to be on a light sports bike. On a side note, when racing SCCA sanctioned autocross events "backing it in" was quite fun

Originally Posted by fishdip

Id love to see you use 100% braking force on the front and not lock it. The same is with the back brake. It is very easy to use 100% forces because you are smashing down with your foot. I think this is from ppl learning to drive in a car first.

I guess I should have quoted david here. I certainly can not do so but I am basically just regurgitation from his book here. He claims it is possible with good rubber and a smooth surface and I believe him. That being said, it appears that I am barking up an unpopular trail here and I can see why. In certain minor instances with very light bikes, "new riders" may be better off focusing on just the front brake as they may ham fist the rear brake into sliding. All else being equal, if the rider is proficient, they will be better of modulating a smooth front and rear brake for optimal stopping power?

I will continue to practice using both brakes and again as of now I am using both brakes when stopping but I usually don't apply the rear brake until I am about to stop.



edit: @fishdip- thanks for the signature line is that verbal mocking or am I being honored for being a complete newbie