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Old April 24th, 2015, 11:15 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
They are often astounded at how much brake pressure it takes to cause it to lock in the first place, and then we train them to release the brake slightly so that they stop the lock but continue to come to a safe and quick stop. It's a handy tool to have to allow students to really experience what a front tire lock up feels like.
^^^ yep yep

To lock the front takes a significant amount of lever pressure, more than most think (even in the wet). The only time this is NOT the case is when the lever is stabbed at or jerked all at once. The front will tend to lock much sooner and with less pressure. Shame too, because this is the first type, instinctive, knee jerk reaction when needing to ebrake. :\

You can try that on your mt bike as well to feel the difference akima.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 01:36 PM   #82
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I was told that if you have two front rotors, you will get 200% of braking force up front instead of 100%.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 02:27 PM   #83
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I was told that if you have two front rotors, you will get 200% of braking force up front instead of 100%.
Agreed , this is why I am building my cafe racer that way.




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Old April 26th, 2015, 01:16 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Great question! I too ride downhill mountain bike and I think the skills are somewhat transferrable. Any time you can practice sliding the rear (whether on a mountain bike or a dirt bike) and being comfortable with a bike moving around underneath you, it will help you react with less overall panic then if you had never felt a slide before.

Locking up the front on your motorcycle will feel similar to locking the front on a mt bike but because the mt bike is lighter and you are on dirt instead of pavement it will normally lock a lot easier than a streetibke. I've written an article on front end feel that may help explain front tire traction feel a little bit more.... you can read it here:

You could work on training yourself to release the brakes slightly (instead of releasing completely) when you feel either begin to lock on your mountain bike and you should also practice emergency braking on your Ninja in a safe and calculated manner.

I hope that answered your question!
You answered my question. Thanks for the reply: much appreciated! Late reply from me, because I wanted to read your article first.

I'm definitely going to practise lightly releasing my front brake after a MTB front wheel lock up. I actually already play around with front wheel locks up sometimes for fun... see how long I can slide the front before recovering (or hitting the dirt ). I have a different mentality on my MTB than my motorcycle. I pretty much act like a kid on my MTB - just have fun and play about. On my ninja, on the street, I switch to I-could-die-if-I-mess-up mode. Both bikes are amazing fun!

So, your article states that there can be an element of feel to a front tyre that is being over-worked. You also state that sometimes there is no feel: your grip just goes, like on ice

I get the impression from what you've said, that loosing grip on the front can be more easily controlled and recovered from when braking while the bike is stood up. You made it sound like recovering from loosing front-end grip while leaned over is a far more hit-and-miss affair and that a rider would be best off learning how to corner skillfully so they don't over-work the front, than spend time learning how to recover from loss of traction from corning less-skillfully.
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Old April 26th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by akima View Post
I get the impression from what you've said, that loosing grip on the front can be more easily controlled and recovered from when braking while the bike is stood up. You made it sound like recovering from loosing front-end grip while leaned over is a far more hit-and-miss affair and that a rider would be best off learning how to corner skillfully so they don't over-work the front, than spend time learning how to recover from loss of traction from corning less-skillfully.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 09:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by crazymadbastard View Post
@Misti

Have any of your students highside while practicing releasing the rear locked brake at school?

Just that the NSF makes it seem inevitable, obviously not necessarily the case especially if the back wheel is in line with the front wheel.
Actually we teach front brake only at the school so our students are only using the front to reach lock up and not the rear.

We also watch for rear brake use when the students are riding on track. It's hilarious to pull a student over and bust them for using the rear brake when they figure there is no way a coach could tell I've gotten really good at noticing the right pressing the brake (even at full speed around a track) :dance cool: hahaha.

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Old April 27th, 2015, 09:53 AM   #87
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^^^ yep yep

To lock the front takes a significant amount of lever pressure, more than most think (even in the wet). The only time this is NOT the case is when the lever is stabbed at or jerked all at once. The front will tend to lock much sooner and with less pressure. Shame too, because this is the first type, instinctive, knee jerk reaction when needing to ebrake. :\

You can try that on your mt bike as well to feel the difference akima.
Absolutely. When our students ride the brake rig it usually takes them many many times to actually lock up the front wheel. Most of my coaching is along the lines of "everything looks good, just squeeze the brakes harder."

Now, there are a few other things that can mess with emergency stops. One of the biggest mistakes is that students get on the brakes lightly first and then stab it at the end of braking and that is when you see things like a big lock up, or the rear end of the bike coming up. I like to tell students to get on the brakes hard initially (but still smoothly) and then progressively pull in the lever.

Also, what you do with your body will effect what the bike does. When riders grab the brakes hard, what usually happens to their body? It slams up against the tank and that can cause the bike to get unstable, wiggle around or it adds weight to the front and lifts up the rear.

Squeezing the tank with your knees while braking prevents your body from sliding forward, and it also helps to keep your arms bent and relaxed so you aren't putting extra pressure on the bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akima View Post

I get the impression from what you've said, that loosing grip on the front can be more easily controlled and recovered from when braking while the bike is stood up. You made it sound like recovering from loosing front-end grip while leaned over is a far more hit-and-miss affair and that a rider would be best off learning how to corner skillfully so they don't over-work the front, than spend time learning how to recover from loss of traction from corning less-skillfully.
Yes. Exactly.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
I like to tell students to get on the brakes hard initially (but still smoothly) and then progressively pull in the lever.
Would you describe that "progressive" pulling of the lever as a "linear progression"? Linear: as-in, you pull in the lever at the same speed for the entire duration you're pulling it.

As opposed to exponential growth. Exponential: as-in, you pull in the lever at an accelerating rate. Faster and faster.

From what you said it sounds like you initially get on the brakes quickly (but not snapping the lever all the way in) and then once the brakes are biting you maintain linear progression all the way to the point where you've decided: "any harder and I'll end up on a 30 second youtube clip"
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #89
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Would you describe that "progressive" pulling of the lever as a "linear progression"? Linear: as-in, you pull in the lever at the same speed for the entire duration you're pulling it.

As opposed to exponential growth. Exponential: as-in, you pull in the lever at an accelerating rate. Faster and faster.

From what you said it sounds like you initially get on the brakes quickly (but not snapping the lever all the way in) and then once the brakes are biting you maintain linear progression all the way to the point where you've decided: "any harder and I'll end up on a 30 second youtube clip"
Don't think of it as how fast you pull the lever, but instead how hard you squeeze it. You're not looking at your brake lever when you use it, so go by feel. It gets harder to pull the more the lever is moved, so "progressively" increase pressure. Get a squeeze ball if you need, the initial squeeze of the ball is easy, but the more the ball is collapsed, the harder it is to squeeze. The brakes are much the same.

At some point in the brake zone the process is reversed as you ease off brake lever pressure to arrive at an entry speed. This should be done just as smoothly as applying the brakes, but it should happen more slowly. If it's not, then continue to work on it. Why? Because it's easy to chunk off large amounts of speed quickly with the lever, however... it takes finesse to shave off that last 10mph 1.5mph at a time and that finesse takes time.

Some rider's say their bikes "feels like the throttle is directly connected to the rear wheel". Us heavy brake style riders can also say "it feels like the brake lever is connected to the front wheel".
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:58 PM   #90
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^ I'm going to have to think about that.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #91
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A little off topic. When I practice my emergency braking, I usually do it between 25-40mph. I never thought about doing it at higher speeds because....well....I wasn't able to find a road that was completely traffic free that I feel safe going 60mph.

Well, I found that road recently. No homes on the road at all. It's a military area that's fenced off on one side and nothing on the other side. This road is a few miles long and most of the time, you don't see any cars on it at all.

Anyways, I decided to practice braking at 60mph. Noticed I didn't say emergency braking....because I was a little chicken as I never practiced at this speed before.

I did it twice (yes, I made sure no one was in sight behind me and in front of me). I didn't squeeze down hard enough to the point that ABS activated. I would categorize this has hard braking....not emergency braking. The rear end did get really really light (didn't leave the ground).

But The front end did get a tiny bit squirmy. I don't know if you guys can tell from the video. But it was vibrating. Because of the tiny little front end vibration, I was reluctant to give it another go with more braking force.

I'm pretty sure it's not ABS because I tested the ABS in the past by grabbing a fist full without progressively loading up the front contact patch and when ABS activated, there was quite a bit of vibration transmitted to the brake lever itself. This time around, no vibration on brake lever....just the handlebars. Any idea why?

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 27th, 2015, 05:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Actually I'm not really presenting a higher level of riding ability or track specific techniques. Emergency braking is emergency braking.

If the front end starts to skid the normal reaction of most riders is to release the front brake and then reapply. I see it happen all the time when we train our riders to purposely lock the front tire (on our braking rig which has outriggers to prevent crashes). However, if you are trying to avoid hitting something on the street, a car that stopped in front of you or whatever and you grab the front brake and start to skid....if you completely release the front brake and then try to grab them again chances are you aren't going to stop for the obstacle. Your stopping distance is much greater if you release and re-apply the brake then if you could train yourself to release the brake JUST ENOUGH TO STOP THE SKID.

I don't think that it's a higher level of learning, it takes practice to get it correct but I'd rather all new riders learn it this way then to practice releasing the brake and re-applying....

Same goes for the rear tire skid. It's pretty difficult to remain balanced and in control of the bike when the rear tire is skidding around (whether the skid is straight or the back end starts fishtailing) that to me requires a higher level of riding skill then releasing the rear brake slightly so that the wheel unlocks.

In the simplest terms, I have my students get on the brakes (front brake only or both) quickly and squeeze the levers progressively (not stabbing or stomping or pounding on them) until just before lock up to get the most effective stopping distance. If either of the brakes lock then I coach them to release the brakes slightly so that they unlock but that they continue to slow down and stop safely.

Ride safe
Misty, You're an amazing coach, on track and off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Now, there are a few other things that can mess with emergency stops. One of the biggest mistakes is that students get on the brakes lightly first and then stab it at the end of braking and that is when you see things like a big lock up, or the rear end of the bike coming up. I like to tell students to get on the brakes hard initially (but still smoothly) and then progressively pull in the lever.
Interesting. How are abs brakes different? I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I haven't taken time to practice ebraking with my new ABS 300.

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Squeezing the tank with your knees while braking prevents your body from sliding forward, and it also helps to keep your arms bent and relaxed so you aren't putting extra pressure on the bars.
Yes. This. It has become a good habit of mine. Every single situation on a motorcycle is best with a loose upper body. Even crashing turns out better if you relax into it.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #93
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This time around, no vibration on brake lever....just the handlebars. Any idea why?
What was you doing with your arms at the time? What was you holding on to the bike with?
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Old April 27th, 2015, 08:31 PM   #94
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Squeezing tank with legs. But also bracing arms on bars. Maybe even full locked elbows

I'm not 100% sure as I was a bit tense doing at 60mph for the first time.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #95
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Squeezing tank with legs. But also bracing arms on bars. Maybe even full locked elbows

I'm not 100% sure as I was a bit tense doing at 60mph for the first time.
I also found this to be true with my testing. Now, as I did more and more braking I was a bit less tense so it goes to show that practice helps not only in habits formed and braking distance but also in being relaxed.

That being said, I find that when relaxed and braking hard that I do constantly find my body shifting forward. Especially, when braking down hill as my whole body is loose and relaxed so the momentum carries me into the tank.

That being said, do you guys consciously have to tell you brain to stiffen legs so my upper body doesn't shift when braking? Does this become habit? Seems complex to train the body to relax but the legs to stiffen without a mental double check
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Old April 28th, 2015, 11:40 AM   #96
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That being said, do you guys consciously have to tell you brain to stiffen legs so my upper body doesn't shift when braking? Does this become habit? Seems complex to train the body to relax but the legs to stiffen without a mental double check
I did it consciously at first and then it became habit (like most things).

One thing: I'd recommend you think of it in terms of "engaging" your muscles rather than "stiffening" them. There's a difference. If you think in terms of "stiffening" (no giggles please), then you will likely tense your legs and that tension may well needlessly spread to other parts of the body where you don't want it. If you think in terms of engaging just the muscles that are needed, then you are inviting your body to make a strong, purposeful hold... without necessarily being or feeling stiff (I SAID no giggles!).

This is stuff I learned from doing yoga that is heavily transferable over to all manor of other things. If you don't get what I said it's probably because I didn't explain it very well. Maybe take some yoga classes!
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