Impressive Emergency Stop

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by chemist

So, I think this is what David Hough is hinting at. Yes, in theory, braking with both brakes is the best option for stopping the quickest. Which gives me pause as I want to practice the best method especially if I am not always going to be on a light sports bike. On a side note, when racing SCCA sanctioned autocross events "backing it in" was quite fun

I guess I should have quoted david here. I certainly can not do so but I am basically just regurgitation from his book here. He claims it is possible with good rubber and a smooth surface and I believe him. That being said, it appears that I am barking up an unpopular trail here and I can see why. In certain minor instances with very light bikes, "new riders" may be better off focusing on just the front brake as they may ham fist the rear brake into sliding. All else being equal, if the rider is proficient, they will be better of modulating a smooth front and rear brake for optimal stopping power?

I will continue to practice using both brakes and again as of now I am using both brakes when stopping but I usually don't apply the rear brake until I am about to stop.



edit: @fishdip- thanks for the signature line is that verbal mocking or am I being honored for being a complete newbie

Nope its mocking every one. And you can just as easy lock up the front in a panic braking scenario. And the back in a slide can be controlled better then the front in a slide.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by chemist

is that verbal mocking or am I being honored for being a complete newbie

It's not you, it is the you tag.

[chemist]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Nope its mocking every one. And you can just as easy lock up the front in a panic braking scenario. And the back in a slide can be controlled better then the front in a slide.

Can you explain this a bit? I understand that the back end in a slide is easier to control but my impression was that the suspension, traction and weight was a bit more ideal for the front side of things in a braking situation. I will try and explain my logic a bit more if needed when I can ponder this a bit longer but wanted your gut reaction if you had any.

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by chemist

Can you explain this a bit? I understand that the back end in a slide is easier to control but my impression was that the suspension, traction and weight was a bit more ideal for the front side of things in a braking situation. I will try and explain my logic a bit more if needed when I can ponder this a bit longer but wanted your gut reaction if you had any.

Generally if you lock up the rear, the rear can/will go sideways and if you unlock the rear brake quickly and the front/ rear tires are not aligned the bike will buck you off resulting in a "highside".

If you lock up the front tire and stay on the brakes, the front will drop and you will "lowside". Release immediately the front brake if you lock up.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Generally if you lock up the rear, the rear can/will go sideways and if you unlock the rear brake quickly and the front/ rear tires are not aligned the bike will buck you off resulting in a "highside".

If you lock up the front tire and stay on the brakes, the front will drop and you will "lowside". Release immediately the front brake if you lock up.

Most high sides require you to be out of line with the front and back by a lot if the slide is due to braking and not a loss of traction due to throttle . I actually use to lock up my back tire on the 250 and slide it out all the time for fun.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by chemist

Can you explain this a bit? I understand that the back end in a slide is easier to control but my impression was that the suspension, traction and weight was a bit more ideal for the front side of things in a braking situation. I will try and explain my logic a bit more if needed when I can ponder this a bit longer but wanted your gut reaction if you had any.

Not saying its not ideal this is why you get so much more stopping power with the front. But if you find your self trying to use to much front brake due to not using the back brake you will find its very hard to stay up right. As a person who likes to crash I have found its very very hard to keep the bike up once you lock the front. Locking the back I am able to keep it up and slide to a stop doing 65.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

I figured about 1.5 seconds, 46 to 0 would be about 0.86gs

http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_...alculator.aspx

Not sure how that rates ,or how I would rate.

That is very good rate for a tall bike.

Originally Posted by akima

I thought his technique was good (didn't lock either brake, didn't visibly tense, didn't snap on the front brake). I think he applied smooth progressive braking......

That is the real hard part: not quickly applying excessive pressure over the brake lever when you get surprised by the unexpected, especially when you have not been covering the lever with your fingers.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120133

[spooph]

You guys are making this way too complicated. When in an emergency:
1.) use both brakes
2.) Quickly add more braking power
3.) If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop.
4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.

- A skidding rear tire will provide more braking force than one that isn't being used.
- The front wheel can only provide 70% of braking force. If the rear wheel lifts, the front wheel is still only providing 70% of overall braking force. By using just the front brake, only 70% of possible braking force is being used to slow down. The fastest way to stop a motorcycle is by keeping both tires on the ground, as only the rear tire can provide the other 30%. Practicing to brake hard enough to keep the rear wheel on the ground is the BEST way to slow down as quickly as possible. This is reflected even in MotoGP -sure they unicycle into the corners quite often but they're always trying to get their rear tires back down as quickly as possible... Otherwise every corner would be a stoppy following by a wheelie and although it might LOOK that way, the electronic assists and a rider's goals is to keep both tires on the ground as much as possible. It should be your goal as well.

- To be able to most effectively execute this, practice practice practice. Go to a large parking lot or a road that isn't used much, wear a bright best, put out some cones then ride the bike up to 15mph and brake as quickly as you can. Do it again at 20mph, 25, 30, 35, 40 and take your time. This will build the muscle memory to be automatically used in an emergency situation.

During an emergency situation most people don't think, they simply react, having the muscle memory ingrained is rather important and most people don't dedicate enough time and energy to this.

So, what are some strategies to keep the rear wheel on the ground?
@csmith12 input? @Misti input?

[chemist]

Originally Posted by spooph

You guys are making this way too complicated. When in an emergency:
1.) use both brakes
2.) Quickly add more braking power
3.) If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop.
4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.

- A skidding rear tire will provide more braking force than one that isn't being used.
- The front wheel can only provide 70% of braking force. If the rear wheel lifts, the front wheel is still only providing 70% of overall braking force. By using just the front brake, only 70% of possible braking force is being used to slow down. The fastest way to stop a motorcycle is by keeping both tires on the ground, as only the rear tire can provide the other 30%. Practicing to brake hard enough to keep the rear wheel on the ground is the BEST way to slow down as quickly as possible. This is reflected even in MotoGP -sure they unicycle into the corners quite often but they're always trying to get their rear tires back down as quickly as possible... Otherwise every corner would be a stoppy following by a wheelie and although it might LOOK that way, the electronic assists and a rider's goals is to keep both tires on the ground as much as possible. It should be your goal as well.

- To be able to most effectively execute this, practice practice practice. Go to a large parking lot or a road that isn't used much, wear a bright best, put out some cones then ride the bike up to 15mph and brake as quickly as you can. Do it again at 20mph, 25, 30, 35, 40 and take your time. This will build the muscle memory to be automatically used in an emergency situation.

During an emergency situation most people don't think, they simply react, having the muscle memory ingrained is rather important and most people don't dedicate enough time and energy to this.

So, what are some strategies to keep the rear wheel on the ground?
@csmith12 input? @Misti input?

I do tend to complicate things My questions of course have been resolved and your 4 bullet points sum it up nicely. I do however believe that on a light sports bike that the front brake accounts for much more than 70% of braking. If the rear wheel lifts the front will use 100% as all the traction and weight is on the front. Just nitpicking and trying to learn I do agree with most of what you said.

check it out:
http://www.bikebandit.com/community/...ing-techniques
http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html

and an article that appears to balance the other two out a bit
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/life...ke-motorcycle/

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by spooph

So, what are some strategies to keep the rear wheel on the ground?
@csmith12 input? @Misti input?

In this threads context and simply put... sitting up on the tank, a tight grip on the bars and a stiff upper body the bike stoppies. Loose, relaxed and locked onto the bike with the lower body gives controlled braking all the way to the point of lock up, then the rider can ease up a bit on the lever to keep from washing out. Easier said than done though, gotta practice it. The rear may get light and even lift up a little, but doing a stoppie isn't the goal for corner entry, nor emergency braking.

[subxero]

I think he stalled because he locked up the rear. The engine dies before he completely stops which tells me he locked up the rear with out the clutch in which stalled the bike.

[akima]

For emergency stops on nice, dry road, I used to use only my front brake. I stopped doing that after reading a long thread about braking (all threads about braking seem to be long threads about braking!). I now use the technique that @ally99 uses (I think it was her):

Initially I get on both the front and rear brake. I progressively add more and more front brake. When the front suspension gets compressed enough and the front contact patch gets big enough that I can put very heavy braking on, I start to completely take off the rear brake. The initial, gentle, simultaneous application of both front and rear means I don't have to split my concentration between the 2 independent brakes (they both go on together - it's one action). After that I remain safely, gentle on the rear and almost all of my concentration is on progressively adding braking force on the front. Even when I get to the point of braking where I'm getting off the rear brake, I'm only doing that because of what I'm feeling from the front braking; so again - I'm not splitting my focus.

I really like this technique as it seems to offer the best of both schools of thought (just front Vs. front and rear). I get that initial benefit of using the rear brake. I get to keep almost all of my concentration on what I'm doing with the front brake (the really important one). As the braking gets really hard up front I have little to no risk of the rear stepping out as I'm off the rear brake by that point.

^ None of the above applies to braking on wet/low-grip surfaces or non-emergency stops. I do completely different stuff for almost all other braking situations.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Nope its mocking every one. And you can just as easy lock up the front in a panic braking scenario. And the back in a slide can be controlled better then the front in a slide.

Originally Posted by fishdip

Not saying its not ideal this is why you get so much more stopping power with the front. But if you find your self trying to use to much front brake due to not using the back brake you will find its very hard to stay up right. As a person who likes to crash I have found its very very hard to keep the bike up once you lock the front. Locking the back I am able to keep it up and slide to a stop doing 65.

Wut. Dude, you're misinformed on so many levels. Lesson here? Be careful whose advice you take on a internet forum. I believe that's one of Keith Code's first points in his Twist of the Wrist book/video.

Originally Posted by akima

For emergency stops on nice, dry road, I used to use only my front brake. I stopped doing that after reading a long thread about braking (all threads about braking seem to be long threads about braking!). I now use the technique that @ally99 uses (I think it was her):

Initially I get on both the front and rear brake. I progressively add more and more front brake. When the front suspension gets compressed enough and the front contact patch gets big enough that I can put very heavy braking on, I start to completely take off the rear brake. The initial, gentle, simultaneous application of both front and rear means I don't have to split my concentration between the 2 independent brakes (they both go on together - it's one action). After that I remain safely, gentle on the rear and almost all of my concentration is on progressively adding braking force on the front. Even when I get to the point of braking where I'm getting off the rear brake, I'm only doing that because of what I'm feeling from the front braking; so again - I'm not splitting my focus.

I really like this technique as it seems to offer the best of both schools of thought (just front Vs. front and rear). I get that initial benefit of using the rear brake. I get to keep almost all of my concentration on what I'm doing with the front brake (the really important one). As the braking gets really hard up front I have little to no risk of the rear stepping out as I'm off the rear brake by that point.

Yes. Exactly. In a max braking situation, the rear is really only good for the initial shedding of speed anyway. At max braking, even if it's not an obvious stoppie, the rear wheel lifts slightly off the ground, so having the rear brake applied becomes more of a liability than a benefit other than the first few microseconds. Gentle on the rear, ALWAYS gentle on the rear, is the key here.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by ally99

Wut. Dude, you're misinformed on so many levels. Lesson here? Be careful whose advice you take on a internet forum. I believe that's one of Keith Code's first points in his Twist of the Wrist book/video.

.

How so?

[chemist]

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by chemist

Me to

[Baron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Man, tough crowd...

Look closer fellow riders, what is impressive is the stopping distance from 45 -> 0 without locking either wheel. Sure, it wasn't "prefect" but it was 1000% better than the alternative. ijs...

Any time we have to unexpectedly hit the brakes hard, don't crash and don't hit the object being avoided, it's good in my book.

Good find Akima!

This^
I know I would've locked up my rear wheel. :P
Need to practice more this summer.

[akima]

and at the other end of the skill scale...

Link to original page on YouTube.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by akima

and at the other end of the skill scale...

Link to original page on YouTube.

Haha he had that coming if I was the car id be going after him for any damage to the car
.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by ally99

Wut. Dude, you're misinformed on so many levels. Lesson here? Be careful whose advice you take on a internet forum. I believe that's one of Keith Code's first points in his Twist of the Wrist book/video.

Still waiting on my wrong info. But tell then Look at this awesome slides he can do with the back and not crash. Id love for you to show me I am wrong and get your front to slide out like this and not crash.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Still waiting on my wrong info. But tell then Look at this awesome slides he can do with the back and not crash. Id love for you to show me I am wrong and get your front to slide out like this and not crash.

I don't think she had a problem with everything you posted... well ok, maybe just about everything . Here is the thing mang... You're working with a new, eager, learning rider. Any track, racing, motogp video isn't really applicable here. While I can see where you're coming from, as I would advocate a learning rider to use both brakes where it makes sense to. But... your post reads and comes across a bit like the HD guys that fear too much front brake. Almost like it's instant down or something. I don't think that was your intention but text on a forum tends to do that from time to time. Truth is, locking the front while straight up and down is a fairly violent affair, but it doesn't mean you're instantly going down either.

Also, doing a little bit of homework reveals that our eager rider is learning how easy it is to lock the rear due to his practice runs thus far. I am sure, if he practices enough, he will eventually lock the front as well, but a quick, controlled release of some pressure will have him continuing on as normal per see. Let's just hope it's during practice and NOT in a time of dire straits.

[akima]

^ beautiful!

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I don't think she had a problem with everything you posted... well ok, maybe just about everything . Here is the thing mang... You're working with a new, eager, learning rider. Any track, racing, motogp video isn't really applicable here. While I can see where you're coming from, as I would advocate a learning rider to use both brakes where it makes sense to. But... your post reads and comes across a bit like the HD guys that fear too much front brake. Almost like it's instant down or something. %%%I don't think that was your intention%%% but text on a forum tends to do that from time to time. Truth is, locking the front while straight up and down is a fairly violent affair, but it doesn't mean you're instantly going down either.

Also, doing a little bit of homework reveals that our eager rider is learning how easy it is to lock the rear due to his practice runs thus far. I am sure, if he practices enough, he will eventually lock the front as well, but a quick, controlled release of some pressure will have him continuing on as normal per see. Let's just hope it's during practice and NOT in a time of dire straits.

True words

[ally99]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Still waiting on my wrong info.

Oh, I have no doubt you are.

Read Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code. Then you'll have a better idea of what parts are right and wrong yourself.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by ally99

Oh, I have no doubt you are.

Read Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code. Then you'll have a better idea of what parts are right and wrong yourself.

I have and I have the movie. And still I have not stated any false info. Such as his false info in regards to the only way you can turn a sport bike is pushing on the bars.

[fishdip]

And how quick you can wash out the front

Link to original page on YouTube.

[akima]

^ that guy grabbed a hand full of front brake after he saw a cop and paniced. What happened to him has never happened to me despite the fact I work my front brake very hard every time I need to stop quickly (including in the wet). The guy in the video clearly lacks knowledge and practise. when he attains those things he will likely never experience that kind of crash again.

[chemist]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Still waiting on my wrong info. But tell then Look at this awesome slides he can do with the back and not crash. Id love for you to show me I am wrong and get your front to slide out like this and not crash.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Ok, maybe not applicable to me but man that video was AWESOME! really enjoyed watching it.

Originally Posted by csmith12

I don't think she had a problem with everything you posted... well ok, maybe just about everything . Here is the thing mang... You're working with a new, eager, learning rider. Any track, racing, motogp video isn't really applicable here. While I can see where you're coming from, as I would advocate a learning rider to use both brakes where it makes sense to. But... your post reads and comes across a bit like the HD guys that fear too much front brake. Almost like it's instant down or something. I don't think that was your intention but text on a forum tends to do that from time to time. Truth is, locking the front while straight up and down is a fairly violent affair, but it doesn't mean you're instantly going down either.

Also, doing a little bit of homework reveals that our eager rider is learning how easy it is to lock the rear due to his practice runs thus far. I am sure, if he practices enough, he will eventually lock the front as well, but a quick, controlled release of some pressure will have him continuing on as normal per see. Let's just hope it's during practice and NOT in a time of dire straits.

Confidence inspring haha I hope I experience this in a controlled manner a well

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by akima

^ that guy grabbed a hand full of front brake after he saw a cop and paniced. What happened to him has never happened to me despite the fact I work my front brake very hard every time I need to stop quickly (including in the wet). The guy in the video clearly lacks knowledge and practise. when he attains those things he will likely never experience that kind of crash again.

like I stated the use of the front brake can end bad in a emergency if you are not applying it smooth and firm. The point I am getting at is the person stated not to use the back brake because its easy to lock and I pointed out you can lock the front just as easy if you put full force in to it. The point I am getting at is not losing one of your brakes because you are scared of locking them is a bad choice. Its all ways better to get 120% braking power using the front 70% and the back 30% and extra stopping power 20% down shifting.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

You guys are making this way too complicated. When in an emergency:
1.) use both brakes
2.) Quickly add more braking power
3.) If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop.
4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.

- A skidding rear tire will provide more braking force than one that isn't being used.
- The front wheel can only provide 70% of braking force. If the rear wheel lifts, the front wheel is still only providing 70% of overall braking force. By using just the front brake, only 70% of possible braking force is being used to slow down. The fastest way to stop a motorcycle is by keeping both tires on the ground, as only the rear tire can provide the other 30%. Practicing to brake hard enough to keep the rear wheel on the ground is the BEST way to slow down as quickly as possible. This is reflected even in MotoGP -sure they unicycle into the corners quite often but they're always trying to get their rear tires back down as quickly as possible... Otherwise every corner would be a stoppy following by a wheelie and although it might LOOK that way, the electronic assists and a rider's goals is to keep both tires on the ground as much as possible. It should be your goal as well.

- To be able to most effectively execute this, practice practice practice. Go to a large parking lot or a road that isn't used much, wear a bright best, put out some cones then ride the bike up to 15mph and brake as quickly as you can. Do it again at 20mph, 25, 30, 35, 40 and take your time. This will build the muscle memory to be automatically used in an emergency situation.

During an emergency situation most people don't think, they simply react, having the muscle memory ingrained is rather important and most people don't dedicate enough time and energy to this.

So, what are some strategies to keep the rear wheel on the ground?
@csmith12 input? @Misti input?

I have to disagree with some of the things you say here.

1: Use both brakes- Sportbikes these days are capable of providing 100% of braking with just the front brake. When racing I only use front brake unless I've run off track, on the street I'd probably do the same on a newer sport bike. Other bikes I use a combo of both brakes but favour the front heavily. At the super bike school we coach front brake only as the rear is easy to lock and control and can cause more problems then benefits. However, whether you use one or both brakes you need to learn how to do it correctly.

2: Quickly add more braking power - What we coach at the Superbike School is to quickly grab the brakes but to still be smooth. You can get on the brakes super fast and effectively while still doing it smoothly and I like to say progressively add braking power. This means that you initially grab the brake lever and squeeze smoothly and progressively, not stab the brakes or give it a bit and then suddenly squeeze harder.

3:If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop. ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is a sure fire way of hitting the ground. If the back tire locks then slightly release the lever until it unlocks but don't release completely. If the rear locks it often slides and begins to fish tale. If you keep it locked the sliding can get worse. Your braking is not effective if you are sliding the rear or locking the font tire, your overall stopping distance will be more if you are sliding all over the place.

4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.- not entirely. If the front locks and you release the front brake completely you may not stop in time to avoid whatever it is you were trying to stop for in the first place. If the front locks up then release it just enough to stop the lock but so that you continue to slow down. This is more effective and faster then releasing and re-applying.

here is a link to an article I wrote on the subject and when I have a bit more time I'll come back here to answer any further questions...but I gotta run right now!

http://www.motomom.ca/emergency-braking/

[spooph]

Originally Posted by Misti

I have to disagree with some of the things you say here.

1: Use both brakes- Sportbikes these days are capable of providing 100% of braking with just the front brake. When racing I only use front brake unless I've run off track, on the street I'd probably do the same on a newer sport bike. Other bikes I use a combo of both brakes but favour the front heavily. At the super bike school we coach front brake only as the rear is easy to lock and control and can cause more problems then benefits. However, whether you use one or both brakes you need to learn how to do it correctly.

2: Quickly add more braking power - What we coach at the Superbike School is to quickly grab the brakes but to still be smooth. You can get on the brakes super fast and effectively while still doing it smoothly and I like to say progressively add braking power. This means that you initially grab the brake lever and squeeze smoothly and progressively, not stab the brakes or give it a bit and then suddenly squeeze harder.

3:If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop. ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is a sure fire way of hitting the ground. If the back tire locks then slightly release the lever until it unlocks but don't release completely. If the rear locks it often slides and begins to fish tale. If you keep it locked the sliding can get worse. Your braking is not effective if you are sliding the rear or locking the font tire, your overall stopping distance will be more if you are sliding all over the place.

4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.- not entirely. If the front locks and you release the front brake completely you may not stop in time to avoid whatever it is you were trying to stop for in the first place. If the front locks up then release it just enough to stop the lock but so that you continue to slow down. This is more effective and faster then releasing and re-applying.

here is a link to an article I wrote on the subject and when I have a bit more time I'll come back here to answer any further questions...but I gotta run right now!

http://www.motomom.ca/emergency-braking/

@Misti - I agree with everything you wrote above, however I would like to clarify that you're presenting a higher level of riding ability and comfort. All good stuff and absolutely needs to be goal for all riders.

I would also like to point out that track riding and expectations are different from street riding in that surprises are more likely on the road. A track for instance doesn't have pedestrians or animals which dart into the road without any warning.

Considering the street, from the MSF BRC handbook:
p.34
FRONT TIRE SKID "If a front tire skid occurs, you must release the front brake lever to get the front wheel rolling again. Then apply the brake again if needed."
REAR TIRE SKID "A rear tire skid can be straight or it can cause the back of the motorcycle to skid sideways. If the back moves sideways, keep pressure on the rear brake pedal so the wheel continues to skid, and maintain balance to stay upright. Keep your head and eyes up. Your path of travel will remain in the direction you were going when the skid began."

Since this site tends to be one of the first resources new riders access I wanted to make sure to recap and stay consistent with those methods they are most likely familiar with either leading up to the course or after taking a BRC. The BRC is designed to get riders through their first year of riding, after which, in the ARC, the same techniques which Keith Codes presents, and the ones you are talking about, are covered.

During that particularly dangerous time riders need a very short list to remember. Emergency stops are hard enough, distilling the reminders is the bet way to keep riders safe. Many riders will never ride on a track, or take advanced training, and although they should, they never master the basics of riding which is why I provided the list above.

This discussion is testament to the differences between various curricula and enforces the need for continued education and training, for all riders.

I must also express that riding dynamics do not change on the track vs. the street, so what is learned on the track can most definitely be applied to the street. That's the whole idea, learn about the bike's limitations to most effectively apply them on the street.

To bring this back to the original video then... The rider obviously misused the word "perfect", however the stop is a great example of a very real risk on the streets and a great execution to attain the end goal, which is to keep everybody safe. It emphasizes the need to practice practice practice and commit to muscle memory that which we learn.

[allanoue]

Your front does 90% of your stopping. Beginners have too many other things to think about. Add rear as you get more experience. It is most critical to master the front first.
jmo

[ally99]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Its all ways better to get 120% braking power using the front 70% and the back 30% and extra stopping power 20% down shifting.

There's no such thing as 120% stopping power.

Think of traction like a pizza. If you have only 1 pizza, you eat 100% of it, how much is left? Same with traction.

[crazymadbastard]

Tires only can give 100%. Engine braking cannot magically add traction.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Tires only can give 100%. Engine braking cannot magically add traction.

And better tires can handle more braking power.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

@Misti - I agree with everything you wrote above, however I would like to clarify that you're presenting a higher level of riding ability and comfort. All good stuff and absolutely needs to be goal for all riders.

I would also like to point out that track riding and expectations are different from street riding in that surprises are more likely on the road. A track for instance doesn't have pedestrians or animals which dart into the road without any warning.

Considering the street, from the MSF BRC handbook:
p.34
FRONT TIRE SKID "If a front tire skid occurs, you must release the front brake lever to get the front wheel rolling again. Then apply the brake again if needed."
REAR TIRE SKID "A rear tire skid can be straight or it can cause the back of the motorcycle to skid sideways. If the back moves sideways, keep pressure on the rear brake pedal so the wheel continues to skid, and maintain balance to stay upright. Keep your head and eyes up. Your path of travel will remain in the direction you were going when the skid began."

Since this site tends to be one of the first resources new riders access I wanted to make sure to recap and stay consistent with those methods they are most likely familiar with either leading up to the course or after taking a BRC. The BRC is designed to get riders through their first year of riding, after which, in the ARC, the same techniques which Keith Codes presents, and the ones you are talking about, are covered.

During that particularly dangerous time riders need a very short list to remember. Emergency stops are hard enough, distilling the reminders is the bet way to keep riders safe. Many riders will never ride on a track, or take advanced training, and although they should, they never master the basics of riding which is why I provided the list above.

This discussion is testament to the differences between various curricula and enforces the need for continued education and training, for all riders.

I must also express that riding dynamics do not change on the track vs. the street, so what is learned on the track can most definitely be applied to the street. That's the whole idea, learn about the bike's limitations to most effectively apply them on the street.

To bring this back to the original video then... The rider obviously misused the word "perfect", however the stop is a great example of a very real risk on the streets and a great execution to attain the end goal, which is to keep everybody safe. It emphasizes the need to practice practice practice and commit to muscle memory that which we learn.

Actually I'm not really presenting a higher level of riding ability or track specific techniques. Emergency braking is emergency braking.

If the front end starts to skid the normal reaction of most riders is to release the front brake and then reapply. I see it happen all the time when we train our riders to purposely lock the front tire (on our braking rig which has outriggers to prevent crashes). However, if you are trying to avoid hitting something on the street, a car that stopped in front of you or whatever and you grab the front brake and start to skid....if you completely release the front brake and then try to grab them again chances are you aren't going to stop for the obstacle. Your stopping distance is much greater if you release and re-apply the brake then if you could train yourself to release the brake JUST ENOUGH TO STOP THE SKID.

I don't think that it's a higher level of learning, it takes practice to get it correct but I'd rather all new riders learn it this way then to practice releasing the brake and re-applying....

Same goes for the rear tire skid. It's pretty difficult to remain balanced and in control of the bike when the rear tire is skidding around (whether the skid is straight or the back end starts fishtailing) that to me requires a higher level of riding skill then releasing the rear brake slightly so that the wheel unlocks.

In the simplest terms, I have my students get on the brakes (front brake only or both) quickly and squeeze the levers progressively (not stabbing or stomping or pounding on them) until just before lock up to get the most effective stopping distance. If either of the brakes lock then I coach them to release the brakes slightly so that they unlock but that they continue to slow down and stop safely.

Ride safe

[akima]

@Misti - I've experienced my rear wheel lockup on my motorcycle but never my front wheel.

On my mountain bike, when I'm riding fast down hill, I frequently brake hard enough to the point where both of my wheels are locked up... I then unlock them. When braking hard on my MTB sometimes I'm drifting in and out of locked wheels constantly. I'm comfortable doing this on my MTB, but very uncomfortable at the prospect of locking my wheels (front especially) on my motorcycle. This is partly because my motorcycle is far less resilient and far more expensive to fix than my MTB and it's partly because if I hit the ground on my motorcycle, it's likely to hurt alot more (hard pavement vs soft dirt) and I might get some crushing injuries too under the heavy bike.

My question! How transferable do you think my downhill MTB brake-lockup experience is to my motorcycle street riding on my ninja 250? If I lock the front on my ninja will it feel similar to on my MTB? Are my MTB instincts transferable to my motorcycle or are they actually going to cause me problems?

I've survived my first years of riding by not braking hard enough to come close to locking up. At some point though I may experience a lockup by accident if I misread the road surface or I ride a bit too fast for the conditions. I feel like I should probably get over this front-wheel lockup fear.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by akima

@Misti - I've experienced my rear wheel lockup on my motorcycle but never my front wheel.

On my mountain bike, when I'm riding fast down hill, I frequently brake hard enough to the point where both of my wheels are locked up... I then unlock them. When braking hard on my MTB sometimes I'm drifting in and out of locked wheels constantly. I'm comfortable doing this on my MTB, but very uncomfortable at the prospect of locking my wheels (front especially) on my motorcycle. This is partly because my motorcycle is far less resilient and far more expensive to fix than my MTB and it's partly because if I hit the ground on my motorcycle, it's likely to hurt alot more (hard pavement vs soft dirt) and I might get some crushing injuries too under the heavy bike.

My question! How transferable do you think my downhill MTB brake-lockup experience is to my motorcycle street riding on my ninja 250? If I lock the front on my ninja will it feel similar to on my MTB? Are my MTB instincts transferable to my motorcycle or are they actually going to cause me problems?

I've survived my first years of riding by not braking hard enough to come close to locking up. At some point though I may experience a lockup by accident if I misread the road surface or I ride a bit too fast for the conditions. I feel like I should probably get over this front-wheel lockup fear.

Great question! I too ride downhill mountain bike and I think the skills are somewhat transferrable. Any time you can practice sliding the rear (whether on a mountain bike or a dirt bike) and being comfortable with a bike moving around underneath you, it will help you react with less overall panic then if you had never felt a slide before.

Locking up the front on your motorcycle will feel similar to locking the front on a mt bike but because the mt bike is lighter and you are on dirt instead of pavement it will normally lock a lot easier than a streetibke. I've written an article on front end feel that may help explain front tire traction feel a little bit more.... you can read it here:

You could work on training yourself to release the brakes slightly (instead of releasing completely) when you feel either begin to lock on your mountain bike and you should also practice emergency braking on your Ninja in a safe and calculated manner.

We have a braking training bike at the California Superbike School which has outriggers to prevent it from crashing. We use it to allow our students to experience what it feels like for the front tire to lock. They are often astounded at how much brake pressure it takes to cause it to lock in the first place, and then we train them to release the brake slightly so that they stop the lock but continue to come to a safe and quick stop. It's a handy tool to have to allow students to really experience what a front tire lock up feels like.

I hope that answered your question!

Cheers,
Misti

[crazymadbastard]

@Misti

Have any of your students highside while practicing releasing the rear locked brake at school?

Just that the NSF makes it seem inevitable, obviously not necessarily the case especially if the back wheel is in line with the front wheel.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Just that the NSF makes it seem inevitable, obviously not necessarily the case especially if the back wheel is in line with the front wheel.

I try not to make it seem that way, but we are locked into teaching the curriculum and only given certain freedoms to vary it.

A side benefit of being locked in though is, it keeps the "questionable" advice to a minimum during the course. So students don't leave with more questions than answers ya know.