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Old December 11th, 2018, 12:57 PM   #1
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Help With Other Kawasaki 250 - MYSTERY!

My 2009 KLX250SF with 9800 miles on it will not charge high enough to maintain the battery. BUT WAIT before you tell me it needs a regulator rectifier... these are the tests it passed:

-Tested it with THREE different regulator rectifiers, one known working from another KLX250SF
-Tested regulator rectifier diodes according to service manual
-Tested with two different fully charged and not fully charged Yuasa batteries
-Disconnected heated grips and USB charger and checked for draw, 1.5 milliamps
-Stator resistance is 1.0 ohm across all three leads
-Stator output is over 70V (I think they're all around 46 at 5k rpms) and will rev to 100+
-Added a second ground
-Replaced battery to ground cable
-Checked power and resistance through starter relay and ignition switch
-Bypassed starter relay and ignition switch part of harness
-Swapped stator anyway, no difference in any measurement
-Extremely low or zero resistance through all of the stator plugs/pins to the wiring harness
-Low/no resistance from black/yellow RR ground wire to ground

The bike charges at idle at 13.7 volts and when you rev it, it drops to 12.3-12.5v. So it seems like the magnets have some pull when the bike is idling but as you rev it, they are too weak to produce sufficient output even though stator output seems fine? This is the only element of the charging system that I haven't replaced yet. I have one from a different KLX 250 so that may be my next step.

Someone suggested measuring AC voltage across the battery while the bike is running, but what would that tell me? I removed the LEDs from my brake light and that made no difference. I unplugged my headlight and that made no difference. It should be charging at 14.2-15.2 and where it's at right now is not enough to maintain the battery.

WHAT GIVES?!?!?!!?
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Old December 11th, 2018, 06:05 PM   #2
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"Stator output is over 70V (I think they're all around 46 at 5k rpms) and will rev to 100+"

Am I understanding properly? Rev to 100+? Thats 100+ volts, measured on the AC scale of an accurate DVM? And precisely where are you measuring this stator output from? At what RPM is 100+?
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Old December 11th, 2018, 06:12 PM   #3
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I'll measure it again next time I can run the bike. I think it was 46 volts at 5000 rpm which is right around where it's supposed to be. Revved it to near redline produced over 100 volts AC. Measuring from the plug that comes from the stator to the RR, three yellow wires, measuring between each of them. (1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 1) it's in a storage unit now so it's kinda hard to run it but I can take it outside and fiddle around more.
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Old December 11th, 2018, 06:58 PM   #4
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100VAC is awful high, even bigger bikes normally around 70AC. I'd think your stator output wires and mid connector would be toast.

Ok, I needed to hear from you where you're measuring stator output from...yes, thats the correct place, stator plug disconnected reading the 3 (A,B,C) values, bike held revved to around 4-5000RPM. The exact volt/RPM figures should be found in a service manual for your machine.

Are you using a digital or analog meter? (could needle have been bouncing around to falsely read the 100?)

Also, please read DC volts right at the battery + and - with plug connected, too, both idle and 4-5000.
Is that where you got your 12.3-12.5 from?

Typical keyboard help, gotta repeat stuff, I know its gonna be redundant, but want to be sure.
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Old December 11th, 2018, 07:46 PM   #5
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It was 46 volts AC at 5000 RPM, I think. The manual says anything over 41 is good. And I'm using a Craftsman digital multimeter. To be sure, I borrowed a Snap On one... same result lol...

At the battery, 13.7 at idle and 12.3-12.5 at 5000 RPM. **Edit, YES the voltage is higher at idle.

I have gone through all of these things like 5 times at different times so I should have kept a record of my results but next time I sit down with it I will. I can't really run and rev it in the storage unit. And where the unit is located is not a great place to do it outside either. I may just ride it home and mess with it there, but it's a little taken apart right now.
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Old December 12th, 2018, 02:55 AM   #6
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The AC indication you read on a small DVM is not going to be accurate as they are optimised for a correct RMS value at 50/60 Hz all you get is an indication that it is working which should be good enough. When you measure between two of the three wires you have a reading is this the same value when you measure the third wire, you have a three phase generator so you should measure the same value between any two phases. Do you have the same values when the regulator is connected i.e. the generator is under load, I know you have measured with an ohm meter but with these very low values you need a special meter to get a meaningful result. It may be difficult to have access to the regulator input, but until you have measured the voltage there under load you can't rule out the generator windings.

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Old December 12th, 2018, 09:24 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
The AC indication you read on a small DVM is not going to be accurate as they are optimised for a correct RMS value at 50/60 Hz all you get is an indication that it is working which should be good enough. When you measure between two of the three wires you have a reading is this the same value when you measure the third wire, you have a three phase generator so you should measure the same value between any two phases. Do you have the same values when the regulator is connected i.e. the generator is under load, I know you have measured with an ohm meter but with these very low values you need a special meter to get a meaningful result. It may be difficult to have access to the regulator input, but until you have measured the voltage there under load you can't rule out the generator windings.

Steve
Yep I measured voltage at 5000 rpms and at idle, all three readings are very similar. I got the same results with the original stator, but I put a new (used from a 7k mile bike, working) stator in it, and again, same results.
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Old December 12th, 2018, 01:18 PM   #8
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Have you measured with a volt meter between the minus of the battery and the zero of the regulator to make sure you don't have a bad earth connection.

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Old December 13th, 2018, 09:18 AM   #9
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Yep. This is so frustrating..
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Old December 13th, 2018, 09:55 AM   #10
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This may sound strange but you might try running it without the headlight bulb. A while back I helped out on a situation that was similar to yours, eventually we pulled the headlight bulb out (for some reason) and the bike ran fine and the electrical system tested out fine. We never put the original incandescent bulb back in the headlight, the owner swapped out to an LED.
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Old December 13th, 2018, 09:58 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
This may sound strange but you might try running it without the headlight bulb. A while back I helped out on a situation that was similar to yours, eventually we pulled the headlight bulb out (for some reason) and the bike ran fine and the electrical system tested out fine. We never put the original incandescent bulb back in the headlight, the owner swapped out to an LED.
I think I did this already but it's worth trying again. It has a Xenon bulb in there now, which has not caused any problems before, but it's worth looking into for sure.

Love all the suggestions, keep them coming!! I will try all of them!
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Old December 13th, 2018, 11:31 AM   #12
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@greg737 what is your take on this (from @Finesse original post) ?

-Stator output is over 70V (I think they're all around 46 at 5k rpms) and will rev to 100+
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Old December 13th, 2018, 01:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
@greg737 what is your take on this (from @Finesse original post) ?

-Stator output is over 70V (I think they're all around 46 at 5k rpms) and will rev to 100+
Gordon, I refrained from posting on the original because it seemed to be a little complicated for "keyboard mechanic" work. But out of curiosity I came back to see if the situation was making any progress, that's when I gave my little input of what-if. You're right, that AC voltage is surprising, didn't another post question that reading, maybe inaccurate use of a multimeter?

I'm in a airplane all day today so not a lot of time to ponder motorcycle issues
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Old December 13th, 2018, 03:47 PM   #14
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I suspect there's some resistance in wiring somewhere between stator outputs and battery. Without sufficient current flowing to drop voltage, output of coils will remain high.

The lower-voltage at battery when revving versus idle is clue to something... not sure what...
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Old December 13th, 2018, 04:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
Gordon, I refrained from posting on the original because it seemed to be a little complicated for "keyboard mechanic" work. But out of curiosity I came back to see if the situation was making any progress, that's when I gave my little input of what-if. You're right, that AC voltage is surprising, didn't another post question that reading, maybe inaccurate use of a multimeter?

I'm in a airplane all day today so not a lot of time to ponder motorcycle issues
I believe that was me, thinking an analog meter needle jumping wildly, creating that high reading, but not so, as digimeters are being used. @Finesse agreed to verify stator output reading when able.

Agreed, this a a tough one via keyboard.
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Old December 13th, 2018, 04:30 PM   #16
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@Finesse has the bike had this problem since new?
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Old December 13th, 2018, 05:21 PM   #17
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Hello friends

Today:

-Idling at 13.68v at the battery
-4000 rpms at the battery reads 12.93v
-At the regulator rectifier, measuring the solid white "power" wire (the wire comes from the plug from the stator and goes into the RR) I am getting 13.9v at idle and 13.2v at 3000 rpms
-If I unplug the headlight, I get 13.85v at the battery at idle
-All three stator lead connections get 24 volts at idle and 76, 76, 78 volts at 5000 RPMs (AC of course)
-There are 2.6 ohms resistance from the battery ground to the ground wire at the regulator rectifier
-There are 4.1 ohms resistance from the ground wire at the regulator rectifier to the chassis ground (the motor)
-There are .005v AC at the battery at idle (someone told me to check this but I'm not sure why)
-There are .38v DC when measuring voltage from the negative on the battery to the ground on the regulator rectifier
-There are .31 volts DC when measuring voltage from the positive on the battery to the power (white) wire at the regulator rectifier

Anyone want to shed some light? Bad ground on the RR? 4 ohms seems like enough to mess things up.
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Old December 13th, 2018, 05:55 PM   #18
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And the 100vac stator output we spoke about earlier?
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Old December 13th, 2018, 06:40 PM   #19
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And the 100vac stator output we spoke about earlier?
Didn't test it because I shouldn't have been running the bike where I was... will try and check again later somehow.. storage unit isn't conducive to running loud bikes
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Old December 13th, 2018, 11:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finesse View Post
-There are .005v AC at the battery at idle (someone told me to check this but I'm not sure why)
You are measuring ripple. Which is residual AC after going through rectifier. Basically a function of how effective rectifier is converting AC to DC. It's very low, so rectifier is working well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finesse View Post
-There are 2.6 ohms resistance from the battery ground to the ground wire at the regulator rectifier [a black/yellow wire?]
-There are 4.1 ohms resistance from the ground wire at the regulator rectifier to the chassis ground (the motor)

-There are .38v DC when measuring voltage from the negative on the battery to the ground on the regulator rectifier
-There are .31 volts DC when measuring voltage from the positive on the battery to the power (white) wire at the regulator rectifier
What you've done is measured resistance end-to-end of wires and then measured the voltage-drop across that distance. Let's measure resistance of individual wires without anything connected. Disconnect:

- both battery terminals
- plug from stator
- both plugs from R&R

Measure resistance:

- between + and - battery cable lugs (don't touch battery), should be open-circuit/infinite ohms

- between each yellow-wire terminal at stator connector to other end at R&R connector
- between white +output wire at R&R to + battery cable
- between black/yel ground wire at R&R to - battery cable
- between black/yel ground wire at R&R to - chassis ground.

These last 4 tests should all be zero ohms.

Look carefully at terminals inside each connector. They can get overheated and burnt over time due to corrosion. The wiring may test with zero-ohms between ends. But getting across these connectors with two burnt terminals increases resistance and you lose power on way to battery. At idle, there's little current flowing, so voltage-drop is small. At higher-revs, there's more current flowing, voltage-drop will be higher. V=IR


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Old December 14th, 2018, 12:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
You are measuring ripple. Which is residual AC after going through rectifier. Basically a function of how effective rectifier is converting AC to DC. It's very low, so rectifier is working well.


What you've done is measured resistance end-to-end of wires and then measured the voltage-drop across that distance. Let's measure resistance of individual wires without anything connected. Disconnect:

- both battery terminals
- plug from stator
- both plugs from R&R

Measure resistance:

- between + and - battery cable lugs (don't touch battery), should be open-circuit/infinite ohms

- between each yellow-wire terminal at stator connector to other end at R&R connector
- between white +output wire at R&R to + battery cable
- between black/yel ground wire at R&R to - battery cable
- between black/yel ground wire at R&R to - chassis ground.

These last 4 tests should all be zero ohms.

Look carefully at terminals inside each connector. They can get overheated and burnt over time due to corrosion. The wiring may test with zero-ohms between ends. But getting across these connectors with two burnt terminals increases resistance and you lose power on way to battery. At idle, there's little current flowing, so voltage-drop is small. At higher-revs, there's more current flowing, voltage-drop will be higher. V=IR


Thank you!!! Will do this and report back.
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Old December 14th, 2018, 12:22 PM   #22
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Wait doesn't infinite ohms mean there is no connection? Shouldn't it be 0 resistance?
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Old December 14th, 2018, 10:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Finesse View Post
Wait doesn't infinite ohms mean there is no connection? Shouldn't it be 0 resistance?
Not between battery cables.

0-ohms would mean + and - cables are connected, a short. If that was case, as soon as you connect cables to battery, it would make battery send huge amouts of current across and blow main fuse. Unless you have accessories that's always on, there should be open-circuit between battery cables. You can test your meter's readings:

1. Touch probes together, should read 0.0 ohms, no resistance, short-circuit, full continuity

2. Pull probes apart, no continuity, open circuit, infinite resistance. Most meters read 1 when leads aren't touching as indicator of this state.

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Old December 14th, 2018, 10:12 PM   #24
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Right.. lol.. thank you.. Im also balls deep (lady balls deep?) in another KLX big bore project that won't start and is acting weird and I feel like nothing I have ever learned about bikes is applying to either of mine right now. Charged my battery today, back tomorrow to reinvestigate, unless it's pissing rain...
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Old December 20th, 2018, 06:44 AM   #25
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with your permission...back to bike #1.

An idea, but will likely need to wait till riding season to implement.

Get an inexpensive digital voltmeter temporarily mounted, ride and evaluate IF and WHERE in the RPM range, the bike is charging...or not. And to what degree, noting voltage at RPM readings.

It is typical for older RR's to shunt (shedding over voltage) and spike (regaining) at various points of the RPM range.

Otherwise I'm at a loss...as you've apparently eliminated wiring, connectors, RR's, stator, batteries.....et al.

Unless you've overlooked or missed something somewhere.....?

So, actual real use voltage monitoring may be called for next, may reveal something.

Have you actually had the battery load tested at an auto parts house? If internally sulfated to any degree, they become compromised...turn into a big ole' resister within the system. Standing voltage readout is not always the final judgement on battery condition.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 09:43 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
with your permission...back to bike #1.

An idea, but will likely need to wait till riding season to implement.

Get an inexpensive digital voltmeter temporarily mounted, ride and evaluate IF and WHERE in the RPM range, the bike is charging...or not. And to what degree, noting voltage at RPM readings.

It is typical for older RR's to shunt (shedding over voltage) and spike (regaining) at various points of the RPM range.

Otherwise I'm at a loss...as you've apparently eliminated wiring, connectors, RR's, stator, batteries.....et al.

Unless you've overlooked or missed something somewhere.....?

So, actual real use voltage monitoring may be called for next, may reveal something.

Have you actually had the battery load tested at an auto parts house? If internally sulfated to any degree, they become compromised...turn into a big ole' resister within the system. Standing voltage readout is not always the final judgement on battery condition.

I've already hooked up a cheap volt meter and it won't read anything higher than 13.8 (at idle).

I haven't had the battery load tested but I've been using two different batteries with the same results. One of them was known to be working fine on the other bike.

It's entirely possible I missed something. Right now, the bike is sitting, I had to rob some parts off of it to try to figure out why my other klx (351 kit) won't start. Ugh.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 11:31 AM   #27
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You actually need an amp-meter to gauge charging. It will show whether current is flowing into the battery or out of it. This is actually independent of voltage.



Autos used to have these as standard equipment. But as people evolved to be less tech-savvy, and rely more on shops to troubleshoot, it was removed.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 11:45 AM   #28
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As for 351 not starting, oscilloscope will solve that in 5-minutes. Check ignition-pickups at stator for proper signal:



Adjust pickup-coil closer to triggers to increase voltage. Then verify that same signal arrives at the CDI box as well with full-strength. A lot of times, the connector or wiring in between is bad.

Another common problem is wires are reversed. Waveform looks the same, but starts on negative slope instead of positive. This throws off CDI and it won't fire.

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Old December 20th, 2018, 05:02 PM   #29
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If I'm understanding correctly, the issue here is a problematic charging system. The starting system (provided @Finesse battery is ok) is not reported to be compromised.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 11:33 PM   #30
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Sorry, i was referring to other project big bore 351 not starting.

Very similar issues to charging problem; connectors and wiring in between often at fault.Troubleshooting process is exactly same, measure and test signals from source to destination on both sides of connectors along way. Swapping parts never solves anything because replacing perfectly-working parts with other or brand-new perfectly-working parts won't change anything.

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Old December 21st, 2018, 03:54 PM   #31
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I really feel like it's not the battery since I've been using two different ones with the same results.

Last night, while trying to solve my KLX 351 starting problem, I looked through all of the pages on the KLX on kawasaki forums. On the 29th page, I found a thread about this issue. Several people solved the low charging problem by simply adding extra power and ground wires from the regulator rectifier to the battery. They mentioned that they used thicker wires than stock and spliced them into the stock wiring and the problem was solved... So I may try this, it will be relatively cheap for me to pick up some 12 gauge wire.

On the bright side, I figured out my 351 starting problem (brand new big bore kit) - the starter idler gear from the flywheel gear to the starter motor was somehow bad, and causing the motor to spin slowly. IT LIVES ! Meanwhile I had to buy a new gear for my stock 250 since I robbed that part, so I won't be able to test any electronics until after that arrives.
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Old December 21st, 2018, 04:29 PM   #32
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I can relate to enlarging the charging system wiring. While upgrading to Mosfet type regulator on my Ducati in 2010, I opted to replace the tiny 16 gau(?) to 12 gauge....wiring directly from stator to the RR, eliminating any mid connectors. After correcting a ground error (my mistake) the system has been faultless going into its 9th season.

Pic of stator wiring (prior to insulating process), look at the size difference in the tiny, original yellow and the 12 gau black.

The Mosfet RR extremely reliable, runs cool. Its from a Kaw ZX1000, 2004 vintage.

While you are doing wiring, I'd suggest an upgrade to a Mosfet type RR as well.
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Old December 21st, 2018, 04:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
I can relate to enlarging the charging system wiring. While upgrading to Mosfet type regulator on my Ducati in 2010, I opted to replace the tiny 16 gau(?) to 12 gauge....wiring directly from stator to the RR, eliminating any mid connectors. After correcting a ground error (my mistake) the system has been faultless going into its 9th season.

Pic of stator wiring (prior to insulating process), look at the size difference in the tiny, original yellow and the 12 gau black.

The Mosfet RR extremely reliable, runs cool. Its from a Kaw ZX1000, 2004 vintage.
Exactly!!!! I'm going to try this! Glad it worked for you.
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Old December 21st, 2018, 04:37 PM   #34
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I've since done the same on multiple EX500's, my VFR, Triumph Sprint, GSXR750, Honda CB954....some I've forgotten.

Knowing the pinout on the Mosfet, they can be used on virtually any motorcycle. Note this is a Shindengen brand. Very high quality supplier to OEM's. Avoid the far east knock offs all over Ebay.

Good luck with it.
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Old January 6th, 2019, 02:58 PM   #35
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Any updates?
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Old January 7th, 2019, 01:54 PM   #36
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Waiting on parts. They should be here on the 10th. Updates to follow...
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