extend or not extend the knee?

Cali619 · February 24th, 2009, 10:05 AM

Hi,

Im new to riding(will be a year this may) and have read both the twist of the wrist books. I practice on the twisties here in San Diego and was wondering about extending the knee when not having any pucks.
I have been keeping the knee tucked in when hanging off the bike and being sure not to cross up my body, but does anyone still extend the knee but obviously not drag it without the pucks? I am curious as to how much extending the knee will affect the speed you can take the turn without actually dragging it.

P.S.

Anyone interested in very very cheap way to get TotW 1 and 2 PM me.

Alex · February 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM

I don't think it matters much one way or the other, though I agree that without pucks hanging the knee too low is a potential hazard if it happens to smack something on the road harder than expected. Correct body position on track involves moving a significant portion of your body weight to the inside of the bike. The largest reason for this (though there are several) is to alter the overall weight distribution for the bike/rider combination, which allows the bike itself to be leaned over less at a given corner speed. On a racetrack when truly approaching the cornering limits, correct body position becomes more and more necessary as the bike gets closer to its limit of cornering clearance (for pegs, exhaust, bodywork, tire capabilities themselves, all depending on the particular bike).

As for the knee itself, folding it in or out doesn't really move any significant body weight one way or another. The reason racers hang it out there is primarily as a reliable lean angle measurement. And in extreme cases, if they start to lose the front, the bike can sometimes be saved from a crash by supporting a portion of its weight on that knee. But the knee alone doesn't allow them to go any faster around the corner, it doesn't affect the capabilities of the bike/rider in any measurable way.

So it's really up to you. On the street it's unlikely that anyone, especially a newer rider, will be taking any corners at the true cornering limits of the machine. If you are, you're tripling the recommended speed of any corner and taking some pretty large risks that just aren't necessary in the street environment. And even if you are right at that limit, putting a knee out or tucking it in will not make much difference one way or another on whether you make a particular corner successfully. It just doesn't matter.

That said, I do believe in "muscle memory", which basically states that you keep doing things in a certain way so they become more and more natural-feeling, and eventually you are able to repeat them without even really thinking about it. If getting into correct body position has you also extending your knee out of habit, even if it's nowhere near scraping the pavement on the street, then there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Cali619 · February 24th, 2009, 11:33 AM

thanks for the input

kkim · February 24th, 2009, 11:35 AM

if you're having that much fun in the twisties, start looking for a good local track. sooner or later, you'll end up there anyway.

Alex · February 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM

NP! This thread made me remember something funny from my MSF course over 10 years ago; there was a guy there who already had a bike and I guess was taking the course to get a license. He made it very clear to the rest of the class that he already knew what he was doing (who knows if he did or not). But what was funny was that in all of the turning exercises, he would change his body position and would be fully extending his inside knee, even though the motorcycle was almost entirely straight up and down and never breaking 15 mph. Even in my complete and utter newbishness at the time, he looked like a silly poser to me.

HKr1 · February 24th, 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

if you're having that much fun in the twisties, start looking for a good local track. sooner or later, you'll end up there anyway.

Mt Palomar is/was better than any track I have been on

Not saying anyone should be racing around on the streets

Sailariel · February 24th, 2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKr1

Mt Palomar is/was better than any track I have been on

Not saying anyone should be racing around on the streets

Funny you should mention Mt. Palomar. I was watching The Tour of California on TV--watched it every day--and they showed the bikes going up and down the mountain. While watching, I thought that the road would be a wonderful place to work out with a sport bike. We had a place in NY State near Syracuse called the "13 Curves" It was a two mile stretch that went down through a ravine. We would have a person at the top and bottom with a hand held CB Radio. When the strech was clear of cages, we would run a bike up or down. The State Troopers knew we were doing this and did not bother us as long as we did not hold up traffic and did not generate complaints. We were also careful as to who rode in this "Event" so there would be no accidents that caused an injury. Those were the good old days.

RaceBikeRentals · February 24th, 2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKr1

Mt Palomar is/was better than any track I have been on

Not saying anyone should be racing around on the streets

Just look out for the locals pouring antifreeze in the corners. Seriously, take it to the track!

Jane Honda · February 24th, 2009, 06:39 PM

I don't race around at high speeds on the streets, but I do practice the correct (I try) form on the cornering, which includes hanging my knee out a bit.

Correct practice makes correct form.

Broom · February 25th, 2009, 10:17 AM

when in a tight battle for position on the track in big sweepers, not extending the knee can make a big enough difference to pull off a pass or not. especially on these low horsepower bikes.

other than that, it really doesn't matter.

TrueFaith · February 25th, 2009, 10:51 AM

I don't extend anything on the street. If I'm going to be dropping knees, I want it to be on a track with a nice thick puck covering it.

CC Cowboy · February 25th, 2009, 01:28 PM

If you have been watching the pictures of the fast guys lately you will notice that on todays well handling machines it is more about dragging your elbow than knee. Today's motorcycle racing elite do things that seem impossible (and they make it look easy). Even the old guys like Valentino (at 30 years old) do what looks like a form of ballet on a motorcycle. If you ever get to watch these guys in slow motion you will see that they, and the bike, are continuously moving all over the place.

February 24th, 2009, 10:05 AM	#1
Cali619 Giggity Giggity Name: Ryam Location: San Diego Join Date: Feb 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 ninja 250R aka Hiryu Posts: 481	extend or not extend the knee? Hi, Im new to riding(will be a year this may) and have read both the twist of the wrist books. I practice on the twisties here in San Diego and was wondering about extending the knee when not having any pucks. I have been keeping the knee tucked in when hanging off the bike and being sure not to cross up my body, but does anyone still extend the knee but obviously not drag it without the pucks? I am curious as to how much extending the knee will affect the speed you can take the turn without actually dragging it. P.S. Anyone interested in very very cheap way to get TotW 1 and 2 PM me.

February 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	I don't think it matters much one way or the other, though I agree that without pucks hanging the knee too low is a potential hazard if it happens to smack something on the road harder than expected. Correct body position on track involves moving a significant portion of your body weight to the inside of the bike. The largest reason for this (though there are several) is to alter the overall weight distribution for the bike/rider combination, which allows the bike itself to be leaned over less at a given corner speed. On a racetrack when truly approaching the cornering limits, correct body position becomes more and more necessary as the bike gets closer to its limit of cornering clearance (for pegs, exhaust, bodywork, tire capabilities themselves, all depending on the particular bike). As for the knee itself, folding it in or out doesn't really move any significant body weight one way or another. The reason racers hang it out there is primarily as a reliable lean angle measurement. And in extreme cases, if they start to lose the front, the bike can sometimes be saved from a crash by supporting a portion of its weight on that knee. But the knee alone doesn't allow them to go any faster around the corner, it doesn't affect the capabilities of the bike/rider in any measurable way. So it's really up to you. On the street it's unlikely that anyone, especially a newer rider, will be taking any corners at the true cornering limits of the machine. If you are, you're tripling the recommended speed of any corner and taking some pretty large risks that just aren't necessary in the street environment. And even if you are right at that limit, putting a knee out or tucking it in will not make much difference one way or another on whether you make a particular corner successfully. It just doesn't matter. That said, I do believe in "muscle memory", which basically states that you keep doing things in a certain way so they become more and more natural-feeling, and eventually you are able to repeat them without even really thinking about it. If getting into correct body position has you also extending your knee out of habit, even if it's nowhere near scraping the pavement on the street, then there's certainly nothing wrong with that. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

February 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM	#5
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	NP! This thread made me remember something funny from my MSF course over 10 years ago; there was a guy there who already had a bike and I guess was taking the course to get a license. He made it very clear to the rest of the class that he already knew what he was doing (who knows if he did or not). But what was funny was that in all of the turning exercises, he would change his body position and would be fully extending his inside knee, even though the motorcycle was almost entirely straight up and down and never breaking 15 mph. Even in my complete and utter newbishness at the time, he looked like a silly poser to me. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

February 25th, 2009, 10:17 AM	#10
Broom Track Junkie Name: Jon Location: Dallas Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r Track Bike, DR350 commuter, KDX220 woods bike Posts: 602	when in a tight battle for position on the track in big sweepers, not extending the knee can make a big enough difference to pull off a pass or not. especially on these low horsepower bikes. other than that, it really doesn't matter. __________________________________________________ Las Escobas -- Track Bikes Save Lives JonBroom.com

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February 24th, 2009, 11:33 AM	#3
Cali619 Giggity Giggity Name: Ryam Location: San Diego Join Date: Feb 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 ninja 250R aka Hiryu Posts: 481	thanks for the input

February 24th, 2009, 11:35 AM	#4
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	if you're having that much fun in the twisties, start looking for a good local track. sooner or later, you'll end up there anyway.

February 24th, 2009, 06:39 PM	#9
Jane Honda ninjette.org member Name: Kris Location: Willamette Valley Join Date: Feb 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250R Posts: 45	I don't race around at high speeds on the streets, but I do practice the correct (I try) form on the cornering, which includes hanging my knee out a bit. Correct practice makes correct form.

February 25th, 2009, 10:51 AM	#11
TrueFaith ninjette.org sage Name: Wayne Location: Brookfield, MA Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Honda CBR250R Posts: 585	I don't extend anything on the street. If I'm going to be dropping knees, I want it to be on a track with a nice thick puck covering it.

February 25th, 2009, 01:28 PM	#12
CC Cowboy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Whodat Location: Ware Is.,MA Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14	If you have been watching the pictures of the fast guys lately you will notice that on todays well handling machines it is more about dragging your elbow than knee. Today's motorcycle racing elite do things that seem impossible (and they make it look easy). Even the old guys like Valentino (at 30 years old) do what looks like a form of ballet on a motorcycle. If you ever get to watch these guys in slow motion you will see that they, and the bike, are continuously moving all over the place.