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Old June 29th, 2015, 06:12 AM   #1
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Newgen motor in a Pregen Frame - Thoughts?

G'day Everyone,

Looking at putting a 2012 newgen motor into my 2006 pregen frame. I haven't been able to find any reasonable condition pregen motors within 1000kms and shipping costs to get a motor freighted to where are astronomical (I live in remote aust)

Just wondering if anyone has attempted this recently or has any photos of the required modifications (understood to primarily be the exhaust headers, front engine mount and oil pressure sensor connector.) Will I need to adjust or rejet the pregen carbies? Any issues or pitfalls I should look out for if I go ahead with the conversion? Is this a worthwhile exercise or should I wait and keep looking for a suitable pregen motor?

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Old June 29th, 2015, 07:10 AM   #2
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It's an easy fit.
All the electrics plug in. You will need to change the exhaust. And the upper motor mount is different. And the radiator mounts to the upper mount. I would use a new mount and change the radiator mounting tabs.

Also the metal coolant tube coming out of the top new engine is curved. The old gen pipe is streight. Use a new o ring and sealer when replacing this as it tends to be tricky to seal.

If you run pod filters use the rubber manifolds from a new gen as they are shorted and tuned for the engine .

There are a couple little things I might
Be forgetting . But I think that's it.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 07:58 AM   #3
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Old July 8th, 2015, 09:07 AM   #4
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How much trouble would it be to fit a 300r engine in a pregen frame.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 08:01 AM   #5
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How much trouble would it be to fit a 300r engine in a pregen frame.
Me wants to know as well...
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Old July 10th, 2015, 08:31 AM   #6
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How much trouble would it be to fit a 300r engine in a pregen frame.
this is a different issue entirely, part of me doubts this can be done without serious fabrication. Keep in mind you're also switching from carbs to fuel injection. The pregen engine is fine so you're probably best off not doing it.

then again I was surprised at how much easier it is to put a newgen engine in a pregen than I thought
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Old July 10th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #7
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this is a different issue entirely, part of me doubts this can be done without serious fabrication. Keep in mind you're also switching from carbs to fuel injection. The pregen engine is fine so you're probably best off not doing it.

then again I was surprised at how much easier it is to put a newgen engine in a pregen than I thought
I'm a newb but what you say makes perfect sense, I didn't stop to think how it being FI would require more parameters to consider.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 03:02 PM   #8
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How much trouble would it be to fit a 300r engine in a pregen frame.
only slight modification to the front engine mount. Everything else fits. I got a full motor with ecu etc. Only thing i needed was a fuel pump. Runs like a new bike 2014 300 motor in a 1990 pregen frame.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 03:19 PM   #9
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only slight modification to the front engine mount. Everything else fits. I got a full motor with ecu etc. Only thing i needed was a fuel pump. Runs like a new bike 2014 300 motor in a 1990 pregen frame.
Very cool. Where'd you scoop the parts from and what did you do for the engine mount mod? I'm guessing you used the 300 rad and all that as well.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #10
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I would suggest using a Honda TRX500 Rancher (four wheeler) fuel pump.

I've used the Rancher fuel pump on two fuel injection conversion projects, my 2005 Kawasaki EX250 and my 1993 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit. The TRX pump is a great product and surprisingly cheap to buy from the major parts suppliers.







Here it is mounted in my Suzuki GSF400 during an early stage of the build:

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Old January 6th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #11
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@EMSRacer07 do you have any more info on your swap for the 300r motor swap?
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Old January 6th, 2016, 03:11 PM   #12
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Very cool. Where'd you scoop the parts from and what did you do for the engine mount mod? I'm guessing you used the 300 rad and all that as well.
Sorry so late. I just grinded the pregen mount about 1/4'' on each inner side. I ended up using my pregen radiator since i used the pregen motor mounts. If i had used the newgen or 300 ones i would probably have to use that radiator since they are completely different.

And got a great deal on ebay from a wrecked out bike. got just about everything.
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Old January 6th, 2016, 03:12 PM   #13
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@EMSRacer07 do you have any more info on your swap for the 300r motor swap?
What would you like to know? Just ask away and I can help you out.

Also I have had it installed for almost 2 year and no incidents or did it leave me on the side of the road. Reliable 90' bike
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Old January 6th, 2016, 03:12 PM   #14
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Keep us updated on the outcome please!!
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Old January 7th, 2016, 07:38 AM   #15
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What's the differences in power between newgen and pregen?
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Old January 7th, 2016, 09:15 AM   #16
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Why would you want a newgen motor in the pregen frame? I want a high compression pregen motor in a newgen frame.
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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:02 AM   #17
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Why would you want a newgen motor in the pregen frame? I want a high compression pregen motor in a newgen frame.
It's getting harder to find good quality pregen parts on eBay. Everything about the newgen engine is better.

Better at holding valve lash/no risk of overtightening the lock nut on the rocker arm. You may scoff, but look at how many people do it.

More electrical overhead for accessories.

More power when doing typical bolt-on mods, like intake/exhaust.

Lower CR means less risk of knocking with bad gas.

They don't seem to get the Kawi tick as bad as the pregen does.

The oil pan holds ever so slightly more oil. Also, the drain plug is threaded into the pan vs the pregen threading the oil plug straight into the bottom of the case. Again, you laugh, but look how many users have stripped this out.

More aftermarket parts support for the newer engine. Clutch plates and springs, cams, timing changes, lightened flywheels, pistons, rods, etc. Pregen parts are starting their slide into unicorn-dom.

More mid range power from the factory. That's real world power, from 6,000-10,000 rpm. The pregen is fun being so high strung, but most of us don't redline the bike every shift, every time we ride. It's obnoxious to your neighbors. It's possible to be very fast on street and keep it at a sane 6,000 and 10,000 rpm all day long like clockwork.

Different way of attaching the drive sprocket. No more silly clip that's easily bendable. Just a locking nut, as is standard on nearly all modern bikes.


All of these things individually are solvable if you pay for them. But when you can get the whole package at once for so little money, why not?
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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:13 AM   #18
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It's getting harder to find good quality pregen parts on eBay. Everything about the newgen engine is better.

Better at holding valve lash/no risk of overtightening the lock nut on the rocker arm. You may scoff, but look at how many people do it.

More electrical overhead for accessories.

More power when doing typical bolt-on mods, like intake/exhaust.

Lower CR means less risk of knocking with bad gas.

They don't seem to get the Kawi tick as bad as the pregen does.

The oil pan holds ever so slightly more oil. Also, the drain plug is threaded into the pan vs the pregen threading the oil plug straight into the bottom of the case. Again, you laugh, but look how many users have stripped this out.

More aftermarket parts support for the newer engine. Clutch plates and springs, cams, timing changes, lightened flywheels, pistons, rods, etc. Pregen parts are starting their slide into unicorn-dom.

More mid range power from the factory. That's real world power, from 6,000-10,000 rpm. The pregen is fun being so high strung, but most of us don't redline the bike every shift, every time we ride. It's obnoxious to your neighbors. It's possible to be very fast on street and keep it at a sane 6,000 and 10,000 rpm all day long like clockwork.

Different way of attaching the drive sprocket. No more silly clip that's easily bendable. Just a locking nut, as is standard on nearly all modern bikes.


All of these things individually are solvable if you pay for them. But when you can get the whole package at once for so little money, why not?
You are completely correct for the average user and I am wrong, because I was thinking more along the lines of people like me and not the average consumer.
However, people like me who when they ride their bikes are always trying to eke the most power out of it, and don't care about the loss of midrange are the ones who would do a motor swap, and not many people who would do a motor swap would be swapping the motor for noise and reliability issues. (Atleast not that I have heard of).
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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:19 AM   #19
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Why would you want a newgen motor in the pregen frame? I want a high compression pregen motor in a newgen frame.
Why is my name in your sig? What sort of witchcraft is this?
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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:25 AM   #20
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Why is my name in your sig? What sort of witchcraft is this?
Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #21
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Why is my name in your sig? What sort of witchcraft is this?
It uses the same science as below. Don't believe me? Put your finger between the posts.

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Old January 7th, 2016, 12:21 PM   #22
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Old January 7th, 2016, 02:04 PM   #23
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Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

Edit: If you are confused log out and look at this.
D'oh!

Trolled. Right out of the gate.
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Old January 7th, 2016, 03:05 PM   #24
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D'oh!

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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:16 PM   #25
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You are completely correct for the average user and I am wrong, because I was thinking more along the lines of people like me and not the average consumer.
However, people like me who when they ride their bikes are always trying to eke the most power out of it, and don't care about the loss of midrange are the ones who would do a motor swap, and not many people who would do a motor swap would be swapping the motor for noise and reliability issues. (Atleast not that I have heard of).
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:20 PM   #26
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Because I use my ninja250 different than most people? How many people on here have ported heads and clipons. I know I'm not the only one, but its defiantly not standard.
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:33 PM   #27
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Because I use my ninja250 different than most people? How many people on here have ported heads and clipons. I know I'm not the only one, but its defiantly not standard.
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Its not a port and polish as in head work, its a minor port polish, as in the port was polished with factory porting. (Even simpler the casting flaws were removed and polished, no porting was done). Shouldn't effect jetting much at all, although I guess it does increase flow a hair.


So is it ported, polished, or ported and polished? Make up your mind.

Clip-on's...? As in... aftermarket lowered/forward handle bars that tons of people have...?
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:38 PM   #28
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When I first got the bike I cleaned up the casting flaws I cleaned up the ports, now I took the head off to actually do some work. So its not ported yet... But I'm going to do it, just haven't gotten the time. And when I was getting clipons everyone said that they wouldnt fitz they would be to far forward, and it would be uncomfortable, I put them on and love how far forward it is. I know almost nothing you do would be a pioneer, but I think I'm at least a little original. I can't find anything on anybody raising compression on the pregen, JE didn't get back with me as far as pistons, RacerX doesn't know anything, my options seem to be to deck my cylinder, and design my own combustion chamber.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 08:11 AM   #29
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Putting newgen into pregen frame will require a custom exhaust.

Question: If I wanted a single sided exhaust, will it create too much back pressure? Will I lose power by deleting the exhaust on one side? Theoretically, I should be good with just a hi-flow muffler, correct?
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Old January 8th, 2016, 09:05 AM   #30
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Start by copying aftermarket tubing diameters, if possible. There's plenty of info in the interwebs about diameters for aftermarket exhaust systems on the newgen. Start there and mimic a little bit.

Obviously don't make it 1/2" diameter for the combined section and you'll be fine. Plenty of people have done all kinds of weird and strange looking exhausts for the pregen. It will run, may just require a little rejetting.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 09:11 AM   #31
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If possible I would start with or copy the begining part of a newgen header, because the exact length that the two pipes merge into each other is important. Other than that, they have formulas for exhaust diameter and expected HP, the smaller the more velocity at lower rpm, the larger the less restriction at higher rpm.
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Old February 7th, 2016, 10:52 AM   #32
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I have come to the conclusion that I would kill for a 300R engine in my 2006 pregen. Because my pregen fits like a glove, and is comfortable for me. But I want the updated FI engine.
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Old February 7th, 2016, 10:58 AM   #33
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So go for it.

But, and I'm sure you don't want to hear this, the 300 has the same ergonomic fit, better tire choices, and better aftermarket support. If you want basically the same bike with the 300 engine and smoothness, just get the newer bike.

If your pregen motor is already a problem child and you're in the market for a new engine anyway... then the 300 swap doesn't seem so bad. But I wouldn't tear apart a perfectly fine pregen to make it happen. Idk, just me; and I'm the guy who's already spent way more/done more work on his ninja than realistically should have.
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Old February 7th, 2016, 12:54 PM   #34
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But, and I'm sure you don't want to hear this, the 300 has the same ergonomic fit
I'm being told at the kawa 300 forum that it isn't all that super comfortable. The old Ninja seat is really squishy, which seems to work for me, and is a more upright seating position (check cycle-ergo). Yeah, I don't have the time to do such an engine swap -- just wishful thinking. Attached to my pregen, haha. But it's running fine and only 9K miles.

Anyway, back to actual swap details.
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Old February 7th, 2016, 03:07 PM   #35
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I'm being told at the kawa 300 forum that it isn't all that super comfortable. The old Ninja seat is really squishy, which seems to work for me, and is a more upright seating position (check cycle-ergo). Yeah, I don't have the time to do such an engine swap -- just wishful thinking. Attached to my pregen, haha. But it's running fine and only 9K miles.

Anyway, back to actual swap details.
The pregen seat goes too far the wrong way with the squishy department. It's soft and not supportive, so your butt muscles get sore after a while. The 300 seat is firm but contoured. Not the greatest for bumps, but for muscle soreness, it's a little better. Then again, I'm from a bicycling background, so I always look for firm and contoured over squishy and soft.

The ergo's are nearly identical. Seriously. You'll never notice a difference stock to stock. If you do, you won't be in any discomfort based on the riding position alone.
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Old June 26th, 2016, 04:26 AM   #36
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Sorry so late. I just grinded the pregen mount about 1/4'' on each inner side. I ended up using my pregen radiator since i used the pregen motor mounts. If i had used the newgen or 300 ones i would probably have to use that radiator since they are completely different.

And got a great deal on ebay from a wrecked out bike. got just about everything.
What did you do for the exhaust?
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Old July 1st, 2016, 03:49 AM   #37
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Hi all, this is a great forum I have been reading for a while now and would like to ask about this engine swap.
I have a ZZR250 in the UK and was considering fitting a post '08 motor but after reading all the specs I see the newgen motor has a different ignition timing curve. i.e. the pregen has a fair bit more advance.
I can't remember the exact difference but it was significant.
I found the specs. again, preden advance = 42 degrees at 4500 rpm. newgen advance = 38 degrees at 6000 rpm
Is this going to be problem? How do your bikes perform with a newgen motor running with a pregen CDI etc.
Thanks for any help you can offer.

Ivy.

Last futzed with by ZZRIvy; July 1st, 2016 at 04:50 AM. Reason: More info.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 07:56 AM   #38
choneofakind
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If you read back, when the 2008 bike came out, people were swapping the CDI from the '94 and older bikes with the more advanced timing. Then the BRT-TiS came out for the 2008-2012 bikes, also with more advanced timing.

The bike responded well to it per people's reviews. Search for the BRT-TiS aftermarket ECU.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 10:31 AM   #39
ZZRIvy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
If you read back, when the 2008 bike came out, people were swapping the CDI from the '94 and older bikes with the more advanced timing. Then the BRT-TiS came out for the 2008-2012 bikes, also with more advanced timing.

The bike responded well to it per people's reviews. Search for the BRT-TiS aftermarket ECU.
Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear.
A further question before I invest in a new engine.
As all the UK newgens are injected, can you see any problems running carbs with a rejet if necessary? I don't want the expense or trouble of having to convert to an injection system.

Thanks again,
Ivy.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 12:31 PM   #40
HoneyBadgerRy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZRIvy View Post
Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear.
A further question before I invest in a new engine.
As all the UK newgens are injected, can you see any problems running carbs with a rejet if necessary? I don't want the expense or trouble of having to convert to an injection system.

Thanks again,
Ivy.
They should run fine with rejeted carbs. I actually remember reading a thread where someone ran a newgen motor in a pregen frame with pregen carbs.
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