Re shimmed...worse cold start?

M-Oorb · June 9th, 2009, 04:03 PM

So about a month ago I installed my Area P exhaust. Previously I had shimmed the needles with 1 washer under each one due to the bike running lean with the snorkle out. After I put the exhaust on the bike leaned out again(as I expected) So about a week ago I placed 2 more washers of the same exact size under each needle for a total of 3 washers under each.

Before I reshimmed with the 2 extra needles I never needed to choke on a cold start, the bike would start up right away and idle perfectly immediatly. Now with no choke either the bike takes a very very long time to warm up or sometimes wont even start without the choke. Now granted Im used to starting my bike in florida where it is a lot warmer then here in NJ, but im starting my bike when its about 65 degrees in the morning or at night...that is by no means cold. Any idea why this is happening?

kkim · June 9th, 2009, 05:08 PM

what's the altitude where you are?

M-Oorb · June 9th, 2009, 05:14 PM

Not high at all...just googled it and google says 41 meters...so not much higher than where I normally ride in florida

M-Oorb · June 9th, 2009, 05:16 PM

Oh yea and also it doesnt hold an idle steady...the needle doesnt bounce around much...maybe about 100rpms both ways...this is according to the tach which I know isnt the most reliable in the world but it does sound like the engine isnt holding a constant rpm at idle...if that helps :/

kkim · June 9th, 2009, 05:26 PM

recheck your vacuum hoses for the hunting idle. also, check the carb top screws for tightness.

TnNinjaGirl · June 9th, 2009, 07:09 PM

Flux capacitor methinks.

What about carb syncing? Just a thought.

Nemy · June 9th, 2009, 09:37 PM

what do you mean when you say the bike "leaned out"? More hesitation in the low rpms? Cause IIRC if you never needed choke to start the bike it would mean it's running rich not lean. But what's confusing is that it actually needs choke now when it should just be running richer with the additional shims. I would check again just to make sure everything was set back up properly - take apart the carbs again, check the springs, screws and gas tank and all the hoses connected. Good luck.

M-Oorb · June 10th, 2009, 08:33 AM

Yea ill take it all apart again to make sure everything is where its supposed to go...anyone know what size allan screws I can get to replace the carb screws on top cause I think I practically stripped them putting them back on :/ also about the carb syncing...the bike was running perfectly before...although a little lean once I threw the exhaust on...and the bike only has about 2500 miles on it...so do you think they could be outta sync?
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Mo1981 · June 10th, 2009, 09:29 AM

Have you pulled your snorkel? If not, that might help balance it back out. If you already have, you might want to go try going to two washers instead of three.
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M-Oorb · June 10th, 2009, 11:33 AM

I have it pulled...with that pulled I had added one washer. If taking one washer out now and going to two that would lean my bike out and I don't believe the issue is the bike running rich...when I rev it at idle it does fall back around 1400 but it doesn't stay pinned there it kinda bounces with my estimate from 1300 to 1500. With the probelms I've mentioned is it harming my bike to keep riding it? Ill take it apart as soon as I have the chance but that may not be for a week(very very busy). If it is harming my bike ill keep it parked(

) until I have the time and just drive the gas guzzling civic around
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Mo1981 · June 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM

Man, those Civics are the worst...lol.
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kkim · June 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM

If it's varying from 1300-1500, I might be that it needs to be synced as CB mentioned. Is it a rhythmic varying at idle or is it more a random, long term (10 or more seconds) cycle varying of rpms?

If the bike is running fine other than this, I'd say you should be good to use it w/o screwing something up.

M-Oorb · June 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM

Kelly, don't really know what you mean by rhythmic varying...it never holds a constant idle once it does warm up it will stay on the 1500 line but the needle will move to hitting the top of the line to hitting the bottom. Not a huge flux but it wasn't there before and again its not just the tach being screwy I actually hear it flux. That makes me a little worried but I'm more woried about the horrible starts I've been getting. As soon as I get the chance ill get to the carbs again and make sure all hoses are on in the right place and the screws are tight.

Again,can someone help a brotha out with specs on allen head bolts that would fit instead of those crappy JIS screws that they have on the top of the carb to get to the needles

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ak_907_ak · June 11th, 2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M-Oorb

Kelly, don't really know what you mean by rhythmic varying...it never holds a constant idle once it does warm up it will stay on the 1500 line but the needle will move to hitting the top of the line to hitting the bottom. Not a huge flux but it wasn't there before and again its not just the tach being screwy I actually hear it flux. That makes me a little worried but I'm more woried about the horrible starts I've been getting. As soon as I get the chance ill get to the carbs again and make sure all hoses are on in the right place and the screws are tight.Posted via Mobile Device

My problem exactly right now!

M-Oorb · July 20th, 2009, 09:48 AM

Ok so I talked to Kelly(Kkim) via PM to work out this problem. What was concluded was that the cold starts with the needed choke was just the bike being normal and that the varying idle was due to the carb's being out of sync. I havent synced the bike yet but I think I have conclusivly figured out something is in fact wrong with the bike causing the bad starts.

Again, I had 1 was under each needle before I re-shimmed and I never needed the choke. Put the Area-P on and still didn't need choke but hada give it about 30 seconds to warm up fully. Added 2 more washers, for a total of 3, and now I have to choke every time.

The reason why I now think there is def. a problem is that I just came back from a weekend vacation and went to take the bike out for the 1st time in about 4 days. First I tried starting with the choke off, like I always do. Wouldn't start. I then tried with the choke fully on, bike still wouldnt start, not even a low idle and then would die, it sounded like it wanted to but wouldnt. Tried a bunch of different combinations for about 5 min with no results. Finally, with the choke all the way on, I heard the bike "grab" (I dont know the proper term). The bike had started with a really low idle and about to die. As soon as I noticed that the bike had barley started I grabbed the throttle and gave it a little gas with the choke open. I held it at about 1500 rpm for about 10 seconds eased off the throttle and shut the choke and the bike was fine.

So now I'm pretty sure there is a problem, its not like its freezing cold here in southern florida. I already bought all the supplies to sync the carbs so I'm gunna do that. Also since I stripped all my screws on the carb to get to the needles I'm thinking maybe they aren't closed all the way, causing a vacuum leak. I have purchased replacement allen key bolts and I will install these tomorrow.

Also, when removing one of the needles, the rubber diaphragm came out with it. Kelly said this was ok as there were no rips, which I thoroughly inspected it for and it was fine. What I'm thinking is that since I didn't apply any grease when re-inserting it, I may have a vacuum leak there as well.

I'm just speculating on possible issues, not even sure these problems could result in the issues I'm having, but I'll try anything that could have been messed around with on the last washer install. Any advice,ideas, or encouragement would be great

. haha

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to make sure to head off any questions that may be coming. And please read the entire thread to see if the information you are suggesting or asking for is located in this thread

noche_caliente · July 20th, 2009, 02:00 PM

my thought would be that perhaps you didn't get the diaphragm reseated properly when you were in there, or perhaps the spring on the top of the needle isn't seated properly...

kkim · July 20th, 2009, 02:09 PM

yep, that's possible.

I would suggest going back in there, removing one washer and putting everything back together and see how it runs. You would be checking the work that you did and also leaning up the mixture at the same time. If you find you went too far w/ removing one washer, you could always put it back in, but at least you'll be eliminating things as you go along. check everything closely as you disassemble it.

also, be sure your choke cable was installed correctly at the bracket close to the carbs.

M-Oorb · July 21st, 2009, 06:59 AM

Ok so I'm about to tear into this baby...have a list of things to get done on this bike...probably a couple days till its all done. But first thing first...solve this problem. So Kelly just wondering, why are you suggesting a washer removal? Do you think my bike could be running rich?

M-Oorb · July 21st, 2009, 08:16 AM

Ok so I got to the carbs. Some of the screws holding the top of the carbs on did in fact feel a little loose. Im replacing these stripped ones with 4mm x 16mm ones (same size, but used with an allen wrench and feel better quality). I removed both diaphragms. Both seemed to be sitting very well and neither had tears. I'll be putting grease where they fit in to get a better seal and I am removing one washer from each needle, for a total of 2. While I'm in there I'm taking out the Kleen air system so once I get it all back together I'll see if my starts are better

kkim · July 21st, 2009, 10:37 AM

those loose bolts on the top of the carbs may have been the problem, but keep working and see what it's like when you start it up. when you tighten up the screws on the top, try a cross pattern instead of going around in sequence.

yes, I was suggesting removing one washer so at least you changed something. You may end up putting it back in, but at least you changed something that might have been the source of your problem by removing one.

M-Oorb · July 21st, 2009, 11:05 AM

So while working around the carburetor I noticed a hose the led from the middle of the two carbs to...no where? Now I never noticed this before and while working on the bike this time around I know I didn't unplug these. Is this a normal vent hose or is this supposed to go somewhere? I tried uploading 3 pictures that I took to show the hose I am referring to but for some reason they would not load.

Im thinking maybe I unplugged something last time and forgot to plug it back in but I dont even see where it could go. Its about 12-18 in long and runs towards the back of the bike and over the air box.

Edit: Nevermind one of the pictures did load. I am referring to the tube that the screw driver is pointing to...it doesnt connect to anything at the other end...is this normal? Or did I fudge something up :/

kkim · July 21st, 2009, 11:12 AM

yep, that's just left unconnected. I guess it's a vent of some sort.

M-Oorb · July 21st, 2009, 11:57 AM

Ok good haha. Should finish up tonight...just gotta go out and get some lock washers for the new bolts and then pop the gas tank back on and watch everything work properly

. Then to sync the carbs.

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 08:32 AM

Alright so put the new screws into the carbs and got the gas tank back on and... bike started right up with no choke! I was pretty excited about that until I noticed that it was idleing pretty low...at about 1,000rpm. Figured the bike needed to just warm up so I took it for about a 10 min ride around the development to warm the engine up. Bike was still only at about 1,100. My guess is removing the one washer from the needles affected the idle so I re-adjusted back to 1,500. The tach still moves around slightly so I'm off to get a 4 way vacuum tee to sync my carbs and then hopefully all my problems will be solved.

On a side note...after removing the one washer...down to a total of 2 under each needle the bike is hesitant below 4,000rpm. Once I sync the bike up imma ride it for a little (without the body panels on) and see what its like. If I still feel that the bike is too lean I'm probably going to return to 3 washers under each needle.

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 11:29 AM

yes, playing with the # of washers can change the idle rpm.

g21-30 · July 22nd, 2009, 01:24 PM

Consider adjusting the idle mixture screws. You did take the idle mixture caps off originally when you shimmed the needles, right?

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 01:54 PM

No I didn't take the caps off because I never thought I'd be going that in depth into tuning my carbs..although now after going into there a bunch of times I feel less apprehensive about doing it. Sam, is there a specific reason you think I should go into there?

g21-30 · July 22nd, 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M-Oorb

is there a specific reason you think I should go into there?

Shimming (adding/removing) alters the gas flow at idle (and other rpms) by increasing/reducing the jet opening. The idle mixture screws are intentionally set lean at the factory, in order to obtain high MPG ratings. By your idle changing when you removed one shim, that shows the mod effects it.

Go back and read the excellent DIY on shimming or installing a jet kit. One of the steps that you missed was adjusting the idle mixture screws. In a nutshell, after any change, you should gently turn in each mixture screw until it bottoms out. Then back out each screw 2.5 turns. This is your starting point for fine tuning.

Edit: I apologize, adjusting the idle mixture screws is NOT mentioned in the DIY. Most mechanics do it out of habit, after working on carburetors.

VeX covered this topic here:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10246

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 02:15 PM

Sam, I agree with what your saying, but you're talking about (very) fine tuning. He should be able to get his bike running decently w/o playing with the idle mixture screws, in most cases.

Matt, try syncing the carbs as you planned and see if that helps first. If not, adjusting the mixture screws, as Sam suggests, may help at that point.

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 02:56 PM

Yea I think im gunna try to sync the carbs first and see if that solves my problem. If it does I think I will adjust the idle screws as this seems like something that would help in the lower rpm's and I see what you mean sam about doing it after shimming. I have a feeling that syncing should solve my main problem though.

I dont know when I'll get to do it though...just went to two auto parts stores and they had 3 way vacuum tee's but no 4 ways

I'll have to keep searching.

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM

why do you need the 4 way? you can accomplish the same thing by using two 3 ways. If you find a 4 way later, you can always replace the 2, 3 ways that you can find now.

g21-30 · July 22nd, 2009, 03:13 PM

Yep, sometime in the next few years, I'm going to finally sync mine.

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 03:15 PM

lol... you do know they recommend you sync the carbs and then adjust the mixture screws, right?

g21-30 · July 22nd, 2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

lol... you do know they recommend you sync the carbs and then adjust the mixture screws, right?

Most definitely. When I did the partial jet kit (needles only), I said to myself "If Kawi sets the mixture screws different on identical carbs, I definitely need to set them equal turns!" Started the engine with 2.5 turns each and started adjusting them in out, and ended up with both at 2.5 turns. The rest is history. Bike is running great and getting repeatable 50 MPG with a little over 1700 miles! Only detectable problem is RPM variance (CDI) after a good warmup period.

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

why do you need the 4 way? you can accomplish the same thing by using two 3 ways. If you find a 4 way later, you can always replace the 2, 3 ways that you can find now.

Reading Vex's DIY on the carb sync he uses one 4 way for one cylinder and a 3 way on the other

Is there another way to do this? Am I missing something

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 05:45 PM

connect the output of on 3 way with a short piece of hose to another 3 way and you'll have an improvised 4 way for now.

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 05:47 PM

A little more complicated but itll work for now so I can get the bike back put together and ride haha. Thanks for the idea Kelly...I'll finish this up tomorrow

MtnCruiser · July 22nd, 2009, 05:50 PM

Any chance you got some bad gas? I did a few weeks ago and had basically the same symptoms that you are describing. Dumped the bad gas in my old Ford truck and filled with good gas. Problem Solved

kkim · July 22nd, 2009, 05:50 PM

yep, not the neatest of installs, but it will work for now.

Another idea... if you pull the kleen system off now, you'll have an extra port to pull vacuum from. one of those vacuum hoses goes up to the kleen system valve which you won't need if it's gone.

M-Oorb · July 22nd, 2009, 05:53 PM

Really?! Niceee I just pulled it yesterday...so I'm good then with two 3-ways correct?

As for the bad gas...I guess it could have been if this was a short term problem but I've filled up about 4 times since the problem started from different named brand stations(which actually happened to be in different states) Thanks for the tip though.

June 9th, 2009, 04:03 PM	#1
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Re shimmed...worse cold start? So about a month ago I installed my Area P exhaust. Previously I had shimmed the needles with 1 washer under each one due to the bike running lean with the snorkle out. After I put the exhaust on the bike leaned out again(as I expected) So about a week ago I placed 2 more washers of the same exact size under each needle for a total of 3 washers under each. Before I reshimmed with the 2 extra needles I never needed to choke on a cold start, the bike would start up right away and idle perfectly immediatly. Now with no choke either the bike takes a very very long time to warm up or sometimes wont even start without the choke. Now granted Im used to starting my bike in florida where it is a lot warmer then here in NJ, but im starting my bike when its about 65 degrees in the morning or at night...that is by no means cold. Any idea why this is happening?

June 10th, 2009, 11:33 AM	#10
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	I have it pulled...with that pulled I had added one washer. If taking one washer out now and going to two that would lean my bike out and I don't believe the issue is the bike running rich...when I rev it at idle it does fall back around 1400 but it doesn't stay pinned there it kinda bounces with my estimate from 1300 to 1500. With the probelms I've mentioned is it harming my bike to keep riding it? Ill take it apart as soon as I have the chance but that may not be for a week(very very busy). If it is harming my bike ill keep it parked() until I have the time and just drive the gas guzzling civic around Posted via Mobile Device

July 20th, 2009, 02:00 PM	#16
noche_caliente ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Kim Location: mundo de ensueño Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 250 Posts: A lot.	my thought would be that perhaps you didn't get the diaphragm reseated properly when you were in there, or perhaps the spring on the top of the needle isn't seated properly... __________________________________________________ Progrip tank pad, blue rim stripes, blue Pazzos, Roaring Toyz lowering kit, Puig DB in dark smoke, Cortech sport tail, super mini tank, and saddlebags, OES swingarm spools and Intuitive frame sliders

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June 9th, 2009, 05:08 PM	#2
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	what's the altitude where you are?

June 9th, 2009, 05:14 PM	#3
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Not high at all...just googled it and google says 41 meters...so not much higher than where I normally ride in florida

June 9th, 2009, 05:16 PM	#4
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Oh yea and also it doesnt hold an idle steady...the needle doesnt bounce around much...maybe about 100rpms both ways...this is according to the tach which I know isnt the most reliable in the world but it does sound like the engine isnt holding a constant rpm at idle...if that helps :/

June 9th, 2009, 05:26 PM	#5
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	recheck your vacuum hoses for the hunting idle. also, check the carb top screws for tightness.

June 9th, 2009, 07:09 PM	#6
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	Flux capacitor methinks. What about carb syncing? Just a thought.

June 9th, 2009, 09:37 PM	#7
Nemy ninjette.org sage Name: Tim Location: Portland, OR Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2009 SE Ninja 250R Posts: 796	what do you mean when you say the bike "leaned out"? More hesitation in the low rpms? Cause IIRC if you never needed choke to start the bike it would mean it's running rich not lean. But what's confusing is that it actually needs choke now when it should just be running richer with the additional shims. I would check again just to make sure everything was set back up properly - take apart the carbs again, check the springs, screws and gas tank and all the hoses connected. Good luck.

June 10th, 2009, 08:33 AM	#8
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Yea ill take it all apart again to make sure everything is where its supposed to go...anyone know what size allan screws I can get to replace the carb screws on top cause I think I practically stripped them putting them back on :/ also about the carb syncing...the bike was running perfectly before...although a little lean once I threw the exhaust on...and the bike only has about 2500 miles on it...so do you think they could be outta sync? Posted via Mobile Device

June 10th, 2009, 09:29 AM	#9
Mo1981 ninjette.org member Name: Matt Location: Keller, TX Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ebony Ninja 250R Posts: 137	Have you pulled your snorkel? If not, that might help balance it back out. If you already have, you might want to go try going to two washers instead of three. Posted via Mobile Device

June 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM	#11
Mo1981 ninjette.org member Name: Matt Location: Keller, TX Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ebony Ninja 250R Posts: 137	Man, those Civics are the worst...lol. Posted via Mobile Device

June 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM	#13
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Kelly, don't really know what you mean by rhythmic varying...it never holds a constant idle once it does warm up it will stay on the 1500 line but the needle will move to hitting the top of the line to hitting the bottom. Not a huge flux but it wasn't there before and again its not just the tach being screwy I actually hear it flux. That makes me a little worried but I'm more woried about the horrible starts I've been getting. As soon as I get the chance ill get to the carbs again and make sure all hoses are on in the right place and the screws are tight. Again,can someone help a brotha out with specs on allen head bolts that would fit instead of those crappy JIS screws that they have on the top of the carb to get to the needles Posted via Mobile Device

July 20th, 2009, 09:48 AM	#15
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Ok so I talked to Kelly(Kkim) via PM to work out this problem. What was concluded was that the cold starts with the needed choke was just the bike being normal and that the varying idle was due to the carb's being out of sync. I havent synced the bike yet but I think I have conclusivly figured out something is in fact wrong with the bike causing the bad starts. Again, I had 1 was under each needle before I re-shimmed and I never needed the choke. Put the Area-P on and still didn't need choke but hada give it about 30 seconds to warm up fully. Added 2 more washers, for a total of 3, and now I have to choke every time. The reason why I now think there is def. a problem is that I just came back from a weekend vacation and went to take the bike out for the 1st time in about 4 days. First I tried starting with the choke off, like I always do. Wouldn't start. I then tried with the choke fully on, bike still wouldnt start, not even a low idle and then would die, it sounded like it wanted to but wouldnt. Tried a bunch of different combinations for about 5 min with no results. Finally, with the choke all the way on, I heard the bike "grab" (I dont know the proper term). The bike had started with a really low idle and about to die. As soon as I noticed that the bike had barley started I grabbed the throttle and gave it a little gas with the choke open. I held it at about 1500 rpm for about 10 seconds eased off the throttle and shut the choke and the bike was fine. So now I'm pretty sure there is a problem, its not like its freezing cold here in southern florida. I already bought all the supplies to sync the carbs so I'm gunna do that. Also since I stripped all my screws on the carb to get to the needles I'm thinking maybe they aren't closed all the way, causing a vacuum leak. I have purchased replacement allen key bolts and I will install these tomorrow. Also, when removing one of the needles, the rubber diaphragm came out with it. Kelly said this was ok as there were no rips, which I thoroughly inspected it for and it was fine. What I'm thinking is that since I didn't apply any grease when re-inserting it, I may have a vacuum leak there as well. I'm just speculating on possible issues, not even sure these problems could result in the issues I'm having, but I'll try anything that could have been messed around with on the last washer install. Any advice,ideas, or encouragement would be great . haha Sorry for the long post, just wanted to make sure to head off any questions that may be coming. And please read the entire thread to see if the information you are suggesting or asking for is located in this thread

July 20th, 2009, 02:09 PM	#17
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	yep, that's possible. I would suggest going back in there, removing one washer and putting everything back together and see how it runs. You would be checking the work that you did and also leaning up the mixture at the same time. If you find you went too far w/ removing one washer, you could always put it back in, but at least you'll be eliminating things as you go along. check everything closely as you disassemble it. also, be sure your choke cable was installed correctly at the bracket close to the carbs.

July 21st, 2009, 06:59 AM	#18
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Ok so I'm about to tear into this baby...have a list of things to get done on this bike...probably a couple days till its all done. But first thing first...solve this problem. So Kelly just wondering, why are you suggesting a washer removal? Do you think my bike could be running rich?

July 21st, 2009, 08:16 AM	#19
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Ok so I got to the carbs. Some of the screws holding the top of the carbs on did in fact feel a little loose. Im replacing these stripped ones with 4mm x 16mm ones (same size, but used with an allen wrench and feel better quality). I removed both diaphragms. Both seemed to be sitting very well and neither had tears. I'll be putting grease where they fit in to get a better seal and I am removing one washer from each needle, for a total of 2. While I'm in there I'm taking out the Kleen air system so once I get it all back together I'll see if my starts are better

July 21st, 2009, 10:37 AM	#20
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	those loose bolts on the top of the carbs may have been the problem, but keep working and see what it's like when you start it up. when you tighten up the screws on the top, try a cross pattern instead of going around in sequence. yes, I was suggesting removing one washer so at least you changed something. You may end up putting it back in, but at least you changed something that might have been the source of your problem by removing one.

July 21st, 2009, 11:12 AM	#22
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	yep, that's just left unconnected. I guess it's a vent of some sort.

July 21st, 2009, 11:57 AM	#23
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Ok good haha. Should finish up tonight...just gotta go out and get some lock washers for the new bolts and then pop the gas tank back on and watch everything work properly . Then to sync the carbs.

July 22nd, 2009, 08:32 AM	#24
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Alright so put the new screws into the carbs and got the gas tank back on and... bike started right up with no choke! I was pretty excited about that until I noticed that it was idleing pretty low...at about 1,000rpm. Figured the bike needed to just warm up so I took it for about a 10 min ride around the development to warm the engine up. Bike was still only at about 1,100. My guess is removing the one washer from the needles affected the idle so I re-adjusted back to 1,500. The tach still moves around slightly so I'm off to get a 4 way vacuum tee to sync my carbs and then hopefully all my problems will be solved. On a side note...after removing the one washer...down to a total of 2 under each needle the bike is hesitant below 4,000rpm. Once I sync the bike up imma ride it for a little (without the body panels on) and see what its like. If I still feel that the bike is too lean I'm probably going to return to 3 washers under each needle.

July 22nd, 2009, 11:29 AM	#25
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	yes, playing with the # of washers can change the idle rpm.

July 22nd, 2009, 01:24 PM	#26
g21-30 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Sam Location: Northern Virginia Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R 2009 Posts: A lot.	Consider adjusting the idle mixture screws. You did take the idle mixture caps off originally when you shimmed the needles, right?

July 22nd, 2009, 01:54 PM	#27
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	No I didn't take the caps off because I never thought I'd be going that in depth into tuning my carbs..although now after going into there a bunch of times I feel less apprehensive about doing it. Sam, is there a specific reason you think I should go into there?

July 22nd, 2009, 02:15 PM	#29
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Sam, I agree with what your saying, but you're talking about (very) fine tuning. He should be able to get his bike running decently w/o playing with the idle mixture screws, in most cases. Matt, try syncing the carbs as you planned and see if that helps first. If not, adjusting the mixture screws, as Sam suggests, may help at that point.

July 22nd, 2009, 02:56 PM	#30
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Yea I think im gunna try to sync the carbs first and see if that solves my problem. If it does I think I will adjust the idle screws as this seems like something that would help in the lower rpm's and I see what you mean sam about doing it after shimming. I have a feeling that syncing should solve my main problem though. I dont know when I'll get to do it though...just went to two auto parts stores and they had 3 way vacuum tee's but no 4 ways I'll have to keep searching.

July 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM	#31
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	why do you need the 4 way? you can accomplish the same thing by using two 3 ways. If you find a 4 way later, you can always replace the 2, 3 ways that you can find now.

July 22nd, 2009, 03:13 PM	#32
g21-30 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Sam Location: Northern Virginia Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R 2009 Posts: A lot.	Yep, sometime in the next few years, I'm going to finally sync mine.

July 22nd, 2009, 03:15 PM	#33
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	lol... you do know they recommend you sync the carbs and then adjust the mixture screws, right?

July 22nd, 2009, 05:45 PM	#36
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	connect the output of on 3 way with a short piece of hose to another 3 way and you'll have an improvised 4 way for now.

July 22nd, 2009, 05:47 PM	#37
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	A little more complicated but itll work for now so I can get the bike back put together and ride haha. Thanks for the idea Kelly...I'll finish this up tomorrow

July 22nd, 2009, 05:50 PM	#38
MtnCruiser ninjette.org member Name: Tim Location: NE Georgia Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2 2004 Ninja 250 and 2008 VTX 1300 Posts: 47	Any chance you got some bad gas? I did a few weeks ago and had basically the same symptoms that you are describing. Dumped the bad gas in my old Ford truck and filled with good gas. Problem Solved

July 22nd, 2009, 05:53 PM	#40
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	Really?! Niceee I just pulled it yesterday...so I'm good then with two 3-ways correct? As for the bad gas...I guess it could have been if this was a short term problem but I've filled up about 4 times since the problem started from different named brand stations(which actually happened to be in different states) Thanks for the tip though.