Cold Weather Fuel Injection Issue

[akima]

Last Saturday my engine didn't start. I think it was related to the really cold weather. I've been asking bikers I know for tips and thoughts on that. Some have said to give it some throttle if you feel the engine catching when you start it. One mentioned that the FI computer temperature sensor might not have got a good reading yet to figure out how much fuel+air it needs to pump in to accommodate for the low temperatures.

For the first time since Saturday I went outside to try and start my bike. It's still really cold. This time, I switched the key to the "ON" position and I deliberately left it there for about 30 seconds. My reasoning was that during those 30 seconds the FI computer would have more time to gather more accurate ambient temperature readings and other readings it might need. I hit the started button and this time it started. I know that the fact it worked that time doesn't prove that the 30seconds in the "ON" position helped, but it does point towards that. What do you FI-experienced people think? Do you think my 30 second idea is correct?

Also: my ninjette almost conked out after it started, as it had chosen to set the revs way to low (down near 1k). I quickly grabbed the throttle and brought the revs up to 4000 and it kept the bike going. Is it normal for a fuel injected motorcycle to make such [seemingly] bad decisions? It feels weird to even ask this, but... does my ninjette have a software bug lol? Might it need a firmware update?

* Akima pokes @greg737 *

[Jiggles]

I think you need to part it out. I'll take your FI throttle body

[lgk]

what was the temp?

[Scattcatt]

I'm assuming that it has a warm up and starting fuel factor much like the one some of us have on our Ecotrons FI kits, if the temperature is abnormally low then maybe the amount of fuel it's supplying simply isn't correct. In that case I suppose you could call it a "bug" if it's legitimately off ("off" as in: incorrect). Can you self tune the stock FI kit? With the Ecotrons FI kit we can tinker with these settings to make sure that enough fuel is being supplied to start up easily based off of a temperature chart.

[akima]

Originally Posted by lgk

what was the temp?

Today when I started it: 32°F. On Saturday it was probably a similar temperature.

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

I'm assuming that it has a warm up and starting fuel factor much like the one some of us have on our Ecotrons FI kits, if the temperature is abnormally low then maybe the amount of fuel it's supplying simply isn't correct. In that case I suppose you could call it a "bug" if it's legitimately off ("off" as in: incorrect). Can you self tune the stock FI kit? With the Ecotrons FI kit we can tinker with these settings to make sure that enough fuel is being supplied to start up easily based off of a temperature chart.

I'm certain that with the right amount of dedication I could tune it... whether there is a kit out there you can buy to make the process simple... I'm not sure.

[flynjay]

Does the stock FI even have an O2 sensor?

If not, the FI controller just has a lookup table for fuel qty vs throttle position.

Turning the key on and waiting 5s or so allows the fuel pump to come up to full pressure.

[Ranor]

Since your bike is an '11 you could take it in and get it checked out, if anything is off it should be covered by warranty.

[Scattcatt]

My gut instinct says a power commander might offer that level of tuning. Seeing as I have zero experience with power commanders though, I could be mistaken. In any case, I'm not so sure if the time makes that big of a difference for the temperature sensor to read (unless you start like IMMEDIATELY after keying on or something, then maybe the system hasn't had time to fully boot up or something since I assume it probably goes through a checklist after being turned on to make sure all sensors are working properly) but it still seems like an improper starting fuel amount and/or warming up amount for that particular temperature. That's what I'm struggling with perfecting on mine right now too... Tiny numerical changes make a HUGE difference lol

[akima]

Originally Posted by Ranor

Since your bike is an '11 you could take it in and get it checked out, if anything is off it should be covered by warranty.

Strangely, I've already done that. I had a problem with the FI system a while ago and they "fixed it" by replacing the throttle body. Maybe it's not properly fixed. There were certain the throttle body was faulty though. They did some tests and found the electrical resistance somewhere in the throttle body was too high.

Because I'm new to riding, I don't have any past experience with FI bikes to relate to. I don't know if it's normal for fi motorcycles to be this sketchy during winter. I certainly wouldn't expect a brand new car to fail to start during even the coldest days of British winter. Maybe motorcycles are different? Maybe the FI ninjette doesn't have a very good FI system? I don't know.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by akima

Strangely, I've already done that. I had a problem with the FI system a while ago and they "fixed it" but replacing the throttle body. Maybe it's not properly fixed. There were certain the throttle body was faulty though. They did some tests and found the electrical resistance somewhere in the throttle body was too high.

Because I'm new to riding, I don't have any past experience with FI bikes to relate to. I don't know if it's normal for fi motorcycles to be this sketchy during winter. I certainly wouldn't expect a brand new car to fail to start during even the coldest days of British winter. Maybe motorcycles are different? Maybe the FI ninjette doesn't have a very good FI system? I don't know.

How many miles do you have on the bike? Have you done a valve adjustment?

[akima]

Originally Posted by flynjay

How many miles do you have on the bike? Have you done a valve adjustment?

~2500 miles and no... well... it's had its first service. If a requirement of the 600 mile service is valve adjustment then, maybe it has had it done. I don't know.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

My gut instinct says a power commander might offer that level of tuning. Seeing as I have zero experience with power commanders though, I could be mistaken.:

Yeah they dont,,,
If its under warrant have them check the temp sensor resistance.

[Ranor]

Originally Posted by akima

Strangely, I've already done that. I had a problem with the FI system a while ago and they "fixed it" by replacing the throttle body. Maybe it's not properly fixed. There were certain the throttle body was faulty though. They did some tests and found the electrical resistance somewhere in the throttle body was too high.

Because I'm new to riding, I don't have any past experience with FI bikes to relate to. I don't know if it's normal for fi motorcycles to be this sketchy during winter. I certainly wouldn't expect a brand new car to fail to start during even the coldest days of British winter. Maybe motorcycles are different? Maybe the FI ninjette doesn't have a very good FI system? I don't know.

Well the only Bike I have ridden in the cold is my own FI 250R and the coldest I have ever tried is about 5C which works out to around 40 F (It does not get colder than that in Malta). The bike normally starts out at about 3K RPM then works it's way down, hasn't given me problems similar to what you describe so far...

[akima]

Originally Posted by Ranor

The bike normally starts out at about 3K RPM then works it's way down, hasn't given me problems similar to what you describe so far...

That's really good to know. I'm pretty sure something is wrong with my bike, because it starts out at ~1K and tries its best to work its way up. If it's particularly cold it will just conk out unless I quickly twist the throttle to ~4k

[greg737]

Originally Posted by akima

Last Saturday my engine didn't start. I think it was related to the really cold weather. I've been asking bikers I know for tips and thoughts on that. Some have said to give it some throttle if you feel the engine catching when you start it. One mentioned that the FI computer temperature sensor might not have got a good reading yet to figure out how much fuel+air it needs to pump in to accommodate for the low temperatures.

For the first time since Saturday I went outside to try and start my bike. It's still really cold. This time, I switched the key to the "ON" position and I deliberately left it there for about 30 seconds. My reasoning was that during those 30 seconds the FI computer would have more time to gather more accurate ambient temperature readings and other readings it might need. I hit the started button and this time it started. I know that the fact it worked that time doesn't prove that the 30seconds in the "ON" position helped, but it does point towards that. What do you FI-experienced people think? Do you think my 30 second idea is correct?

Also: my ninjette almost conked out after it started, as it had chosen to set the revs way to low (down near 1k). I quickly grabbed the throttle and brought the revs up to 4000 and it kept the bike going. Is it normal for a fuel injected motorcycle to make such [seemingly] bad decisions? It feels weird to even ask this, but... does my ninjette have a software bug lol? Might it need a firmware update?

* Akima pokes @greg737 *

You guys over there in Europe are dealing with a pretty cold winter this year, aren't you?

It sounds like the bike isn't getting the fuel it needs right at the very beginning of the startup.

If an FI engine startup gets off to a bad beginning, if it doesn't get the necessary fuel into the cylinders on the initial few engine rotations it may "hang up" at a lower than idle RPM. From there on the ECU has no choice but to keep referencing it's fueling table at that unusually low RPM data-point. It gets trapped in a bad cycle that it can't get out of.

Those very first engine rotations during a cold weather startup can be critical in causing or avoiding this situation.

If you remember, one of the things I suggested to help your bike deal with really cold temperature start-ups is to key-switch it "on", wait a couple of seconds, then "off" again, then back to "on", and then start the bike.

The reason, as I mentioned before, is that the ECU does a lot of "housekeeping" duties in the first few seconds after you key-switch to "on". You know that one of the duties the ECU accomplishes is to run the fuel pump for about two or three seconds, bringing the fuel pressure up to normal operating PSI and when it gets there the ECU fires the injectors in what is called a "priming pulse". The priming pulse is meant to prepare the injectors for normal operation by clearing any air that might be in the injector end of the fuel system.

That's why key-switching to "on" twice will insure that the injectors are ready for the start (full of fuel rather than air).

So you ask, "why would there be air in the injectors?" and I have to say I'm not exactly sure what all is involved in the physics of the situation, but I know that the injectors are not designed to resist reverse flow. This means that after you've ridden the bike around and the engine (and its fuel system) has been at normal operating temps for a while and then you park it there is a (completely normal) tendency for the injectors to inhale some air as the fuel system cools off. Just an assumption but I'm betting this phenomena is increased when the outside temps are lower.

Try what I'm suggesting the next time you have a really cold startup situation. I'd like to hear if it makes a difference.

[Ranor]

Originally Posted by akima

That's really good to know. I'm pretty sure something is wrong with my bike, because it starts out at ~1K and tries its best to work its way up. If it's particularly cold it will just conk out unless I quickly twist the throttle to ~4k

Yea that is a bit strange because even on warmer days when the bike is still cold the rpms generally always start out at about 3k but obviously on warmer days the rpm settles down quicker.

[akima]

Thanks for your input @greg737. I feel stupid for forgetting that great tip. I'll remember it and I
I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you.

[Sonofswin]

Hey Akima,

How'd the cold start go? Greg737 had some great advice.

My experience is that when you turn on the key, the FI light comes on and you hear a buzz in the engine, you need to wait for the noise to stop, not for the light to switch off before you start your engine. I assume this would be the sound of it doing what Greg explained, but my mechanic expressly stated that you should wait for the sound to stop every time you start your bike.

I find that my bike is also a bit stubborn on really cold mornings, however, I installed a power commander before it got really cold so I don't know what the stock bike reacts like under the same conditions. The power commander automatically kicks it up to around 2500 RPM upon start-up and has a special air/fuel ratio until a certain temperature is met. (Still takes forever to warm up on freezing mornings.)

One thing I do with my Yamaha SRV250 (carbureted) is kick the idle adjustor up a bit in winter months. Have you tried that on your Ninja? (Round knob on the left side of your bike just behind the edge of the fairings. See page 38 of the Service manual.) [PM me if you don't have one!]

Best fix would be a Power Commander though!! Most definitely the first Mod to make on a FI bike!

Good Luck, stay warm - Spring is almost here!!

[akima]

@Sonofswin: hi

The turn the key twice thing, seemed to work -- the bike started -- but I can't know for sure if it actually helped on account of me only having only tried the technique twice. After that it warmed up enough that it started fine. It was only at the lowest temperatures our winter went too that the bike just would not start. As soon as it went just ~4 degrees Celsius warmer, the bike started fine.

I think I am going to get a power commander. I think the stock fi computer is just a bit lacking. I don't think anything is physically wrong with the bike. It was nicely warm outside today and everything about the bike was smooth and yummy.

Does the idle adjuster allow you to specify a minimum idle speed?

[Sonofswin]

Originally Posted by akima

Does the idle adjuster allow you to specify a minimum idle speed?

As on carbureted bikes, the idle adjustor goes to the linkage on the throttle body, so it should allow you to basically turn your idle up so that from the beginning more fuel is being sent to the cylinders. (Thereby allowing you to set your minimum idle.) BUT, to be honest, I haven't tried it on my Ninja, just my older bike. The theory seems sound, I just don't know if the ECU will override that manual setting or not.

The absolute best solution would be a Power Commander, even still all stock, it's like a different bike. Smoother in first and second, better mid-range torque and acceleration... I was in love all over again once I installed mine.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Sonofswin

The absolute best solution would be a Power Commander, even still all stock, it's like a different bike. Smoother in first and second, better mid-range torque and acceleration... I was in love all over again once I installed mine.

Wow, that much of a change? Will definitely look into this.

[Tony B]

Sorry Akima that I can't join in this discussion, I've never owned a bike that didn't have a carb.

Greg, yea, they told us we were going to have a long cold Winter, but if you call 3 inches of snow for a couple of days cold, then you probably come from the Bahamas !

Several days in February, (the UK's coldest average month of the year), we were wearing T-shirts, and the TV weather reports were telling us the temperature here was hotter than Rome or Madrid

[Joshorilla]

I got this a few weeks back! It took about... two to three seconds to start and sounded a bit ropey for a few seconds, since my 500m service, it hasn't done this, i'm pretty sure it's just a "It's because its a little too cold" issue, I may get a stronger battery so it doesn't drop the volts too much after a short while.

[lgk]

did you cycle the key a couple of times?

i heard it might inject an additional priming pulse.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

I got this a few weeks back! It took about... two to three seconds to start and sounded a bit ropey for a few seconds, since my 500m service, it hasn't done this, i'm pretty sure it's just a "It's because its a little too cold" issue, I may get a stronger battery so it doesn't drop the volts too much after a short while.

When you're having trouble starting it in the cold, try this great technique someone on here recommended. Turn the key to the on position. Turn it back to off. Turn it to on again, and then start it. Apparently this causes it to prime the engine twice... which I think means that there is more fuel in the engine... which I think helps it start. Actually... I don't really know why it seems to work, but it does!

This is one advantage the Carb-ninjette owners have... the cold isn't such a problem. They just knock their choke up and it starts fine.

Edit: @lgk: same idea as me!

[lgk]

great minds think alike

[Joshorilla]

I've never really needed to cycle it, I have the habit of starting the ignition as the FI light goes off but the engine is still being primed as I can hear the injectors squirting, i've stopped doing that, i've never needed to prime it twice as I just hold down the starter for about three seconds and by that amount of time their is enough fuel in the cylinders for it to splutter into life, however I shall prime it twice tomorrow morning if it is cold and see how that works out, however I don't want to flood it before work... oh well, it's for SCIENCE!

[akima]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

however I don't want to flood it before work... oh well, it's for SCIENCE!

All can be justified in the name of science!

[Jiggles]

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef3c/

[choneofakind]

For science! Now I'm interested!! I'll do many useless/quirky in the name of science.

Like stick a blob of dough from the drain into the oven because we wanted to see what happened. It ended up looking like a brown Pikachu

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

For science! Now I'm interested!! I'll do anything in the name of science.

Anything huh?

[choneofakind]

...ughhh. I forget about the collective gutter-mind sometimes.

Not ANYTHING. sheesh.

Almost anything. *edits previous post*

[leed]

Originally Posted by akima

This is one advantage the Carb-ninjette owners have... the cold isn't such a problem. They just knock their choke up and it starts fine.

Totally not true! Whenever the temp is below 30F, I've had a ton of trouble on numerous occasions getting the bike to start. Once I pushed it up and down a hill 4 times to try to bump start it and then it started when I tried the ignition again at the bottom of the hill after having stopped. Then again, it could have been a whole slew of other problems.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I'll do anything in the name of science.

even installing truck nuts on your bike?!?!??!

[Jiggles]

[lgk]

Originally Posted by leed

Totally not true! Whenever the temp is below 30F, I've had a ton of trouble on numerous occasions getting the bike to start. Once I pushed it up and down a hill 4 times to try to bump start it and then it started when I tried the ignition again at the bottom of the hill after having stopped. Then again, it could have been a whole slew of other problems.

started mine on the first try at 27 degrees, but i had jetted richer.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

yep writing it down and repeatability, is what it boils down to.

everything else is for fun.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lgk

even installing truck nuts on your bike?!?!??!

Those would be bike nuts then. Duh. That's science.

and no, my bike is a lady.

[Joshorilla]

Their was no point doing it today as it was a balmy 13 degrees c so I did it anyway, and it started just fine.