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Old October 23rd, 2018, 01:29 PM   #1
dodgerdad
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Carb frustration *argghh*

I'm reaching out to you guys for desperate help. After removing the carb, disassembling and cleaning it (found some clogging), my former non-runner fired right up. Unfortunately it won't idle without the choke. When I release the choke it idles around 900-800 RPM and eventually stalls out, and if I give it gas it bogs down and stalls.

I hadn't touched the mixture screws the first time so I removed the carb again and carefully removed the mixture screws, blasted the passages with cleaner. I ensured the tiny seals and washers were properly placed and set to 2.5 turns out.

I reinstalled it and same problem. I gradually turned the mixture screws in some more and no change. I assume it's running too rich (smells like it, too).

Not being one to quit I plan on disassembling the carb and checking/cleaning everything again, but can anyone tell me what to look for once I have it apart again? I don't know what else to check.

Air cleaner is new and oiled, plugs are new and gapped (old ones looked fine), new gas, new fuel filter. I've also sprayed carb cleaner along vacuum connections and boots but didn't see a change in RPM.

I'll appreciate any tips you can provide.
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 01:44 PM   #2
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your pilot jet is clogged. same thing happened to godzilla.pull carbs/bowls and remove pilot jets. clean, reinstall.
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 01:46 PM   #3
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your pilot jet is clogged. same thing happened to godzilla.pull carbs/bowls and remove pilot jets. clean, reinstall.
I cleaned them out already but I'll be taking a closer look at them this time.
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 02:59 PM   #4
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Or... You dropped/lost one or both of the silver collar pieces from one or both of your carbs and when this happens the carbs run way over-rich and the bike won't idle.

The commonly lost piece I'm referring to is the little silver collar that surrounds the main needle, visible from the backside of the carbs below the CV slides, as shown in this picture:
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 04:42 PM   #5
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Or... You dropped/lost one or both of the silver collar pieces from one or both of your carbs and when this happens the carbs run way over-rich and the bike won't idle.

The commonly lost piece I'm referring to is the little silver collar that surrounds the main needle, visible from the backside of the carbs below the CV slides, as shown in this picture:
I think you forgot to post the picture/link.
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 04:44 PM   #6
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The photo link works for me.

Anybody else? Is it just me?
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 04:48 PM   #7
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The photo link works for me.

Anybody else? Is it just me?
hmmm...
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 04:51 PM   #8
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OK, I disassembled top and bottom of one carb, everything looks fine but when I look at the diagram I noticed the needle jet (#16017) didn't come out nor was it attached to the needle jet holder (#13091) Should it just come out of that orifice when the holder is removed??

https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/...rburetor-parts
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 05:03 PM   #9
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I was referring to part #16017. It gets lost sometimes during carb cleaning/rebuild.
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Old October 23rd, 2018, 06:13 PM   #10
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16017 needle jets commonly fall out on their own, silently go missing....or sometimes stick in place, even when the emulsion tube is removed. There is no rule to determine whether one or both stay or go.

In any event, don't pound on them to remove, if they are stubborn, simply clean the inside diameter while its in place.

It IS, however, essential they be accounted for both during service and especially upon carb assembly.

Expensive little boogers, do not lose!
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Old October 24th, 2018, 06:14 AM   #11
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There could be a few things going on.

Have you tried to set the idle speed when warm?

Do the idle mixture screws have any effect?

Did you check the float levels?

Did you sync the carbs?

Is the gas fresh?

It does sound like the Pilot Jets could be partially plugged. Carb cleaner alone may not completely remove all of the deposits. You may need to use (soft) fine wire to gently clean the inside of the jets. Just being able to see light through them doesn't always mean they are completely clear.

Also try removing the (oiled) air filter and see if it changes anything. It's really easy to over-oil the filter, and it will affect how it runs from idle to WOT.

Use this section for reference - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do...n_the_carbs%3F
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Old October 24th, 2018, 04:10 PM   #12
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Update

I went through the carbs and followed the directions on the wiki to the letter. It did appear that one of the pilot circuit ports may have been clogged.

Fired up the bike and it it idles without the choke now. The RPM seems a bit low so when I adjust the idle knob it raises it but is very slow to come down when you rev it.

I assume the air mixture needs to be adjusted a little (currently set at 2.5 turns out) so that'll be my next step unless anyone here suggests otherwise.

Thanks for your help so far!
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Old October 25th, 2018, 05:46 AM   #13
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2.5 turns out is usually pretty close.

I would sync the carbs before doing any fine tuning.

As far as fine tuning of the Idle Mixture (on any engine), I like to find the setting that produces the highest RPMs - then go just slightly richer (about 1/8 turn OUT for the Ninja's carbs). Then set the idle speed. The engine should be fully warm when you make the adjustments.

That shouldn't change the RPMs much at all, but gives you a smoother transition as you open the throttle.

As temps change you may need to make slight adjustments. Colder air requires more fuel (out).
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Old October 26th, 2018, 12:25 AM   #14
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https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223984
go to post #5
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Old November 20th, 2018, 05:41 PM   #15
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Last call for help!!!

Posting one last plea for help. I disassembled the entire carb last night for the 4th time. I cleaned out every passage with soft copper wire making sure I could visually see the wire go through/come out. I cleaned every passage with starter fluid and then with carb cleaner as per the wiki instructions.

I set the mixture screws, verified the float height and bench synced it as well.

The bike is doing the exact same thing, it will idle at 1900 or 1100. It doesn't fluctuate, it either lands on 1900 or it lands on 1100. It sometimes bogs down when it's at 1100 and you give it some throttle. Otherwise, it runs great (already put around 95-100 miles on it).

I've sprayed tons of carb cleaner on every hose, joint, boot and even around the airbox and it doesn't affect the idle. I've even run it with no air filter. It has new plugs, fuel filter, fuel, and air filter element.

I've pretty much given up and plan on saving up some money to take it into a shop unless anyone can suggest something I haven't already tried (at least one-to-four times).
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Old November 20th, 2018, 06:15 PM   #16
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you will never get it completely clean as their is hidden passages. you need to send it off to ductiman. gordons carb services. he is a member.
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239678
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Old November 20th, 2018, 06:57 PM   #17
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I bet your carbs still aren't completely clean. I have quite a bit of experience with this and you'd be amazed at how a little bit of crap in a hidden passage will cause issues.

I suggest getting a gallon can of gunk carb cleaner. Fully disassemble the carbs and soak all the parts that aren't rubber or plastic (main body, jets orifice tube etc ) in then cleaner at least 8 hours.

Then you need a good supply of compressed air (not canned air) and blow out all the passages etc. This "should" take care of any blockages. I've had a couple really bad carbs where even that didn't work though.

FYI even though I've never had a problem with it the gunknl carb cleaner can affect any plastic still attached to the carb when soaking.

Finally make sure the orings on the idle needles are in good shape and are installed correctly. A bad or missing oring will make tuning almost impossible.

Once all thats done follow one of the many idle mixture adjustment procedures. If you find that you can never get the needle out far enough to make the engine go rich you still have a mixture issue somewhere.

Hope that helps.
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Old November 20th, 2018, 07:29 PM   #18
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How did the carb diaphragms look? They can get damaged easily and give you all sorts of problems.

That, and the carbs may need more than just spray cleaner...

The Needle Jets ("collar") are in place correctly - right?

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/File:Jim_carb_2.jpg

Idle Mixture screws have a spring, washer, and o-ring on them?
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Old November 20th, 2018, 08:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennylxix View Post
I bet your carbs still aren't completely clean. I have quite a bit of experience with this and you'd be amazed at how a little bit of crap in a hidden passage will cause issues.

I suggest getting a gallon can of gunk carb cleaner. Fully disassemble the carbs and soak all the parts that aren't rubber or plastic (main body, jets orifice tube etc ) in then cleaner at least 8 hours.

Then you need a good supply of compressed air (not canned air) and blow out all the passages etc. This "should" take care of any blockages. I've had a couple really bad carbs where even that didn't work though.

FYI even though I've never had a problem with it the gunknl carb cleaner can affect any plastic still attached to the carb when soaking.

Finally make sure the orings on the idle needles are in good shape and are installed correctly. A bad or missing oring will make tuning almost impossible.

Once all thats done follow one of the many idle mixture adjustment procedures. If you find that you can never get the needle out far enough to make the engine go rich you still have a mixture issue somewhere.

Hope that helps.
I haven't soaked the carb bodies, hesitant to go that route as they hardly had any gunk on the first disassembly.

The o-rings and washers appeared to be in good shape each time I've removed them. I made certain to install them upwards while holding the carb upside down so they didn't rotate or get pinched.

This time around I left the air mixture at 2.5 turns out and didn't mess with it as it didn't seem to help the previous times I gradually adjusted them.

Thanks for providing some suggestions.
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Old November 20th, 2018, 08:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
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How did the carb diaphragms look? They can get damaged easily and give you all sorts of problems.

That, and the carbs may need more than just spray cleaner...

The Needle Jets ("collar") are in place correctly - right?

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/File:Jim_carb_2.jpg

Idle Mixture screws have a spring, washer, and o-ring on them?
Diaphragms looked pretty healthy with no tears, deformations or brittleness. Collars were removed for cleaning and replaced in their proper orientation.

Thanks for taking the time to lend some knowledge.
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Old November 20th, 2018, 08:21 PM   #21
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So far this is is something I've come across which I haven't tried. Apparently the butterflies can wear out of alignment. I'm skeptical because I didn't notice any play and figure it would have been evident when I did the bench sync. It'll certainly be something I can look at next time the carbs are off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ria3gmofE
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Old November 21st, 2018, 06:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgerdad View Post
The bike is doing the exact same thing, it will idle at 1900 or 1100. It doesn't fluctuate, it either lands on 1900 or it lands on 1100. It sometimes bogs down when it's at 1100 and you give it some throttle. Otherwise, it runs great (already put around 95-100 miles on it).
That can be a symptom of valves out of adjustment. How long since they were adjusted to spec?
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Old November 21st, 2018, 06:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgerdad View Post
The o-rings and washers appeared to be in good shape each time I've removed them. I made certain to install them upwards while holding the carb upside down so they didn't rotate or get pinched.

This time around I left the air mixture at 2.5 turns out and didn't mess with it as it didn't seem to help the previous times I gradually adjusted them.
Couple things -

I don't think you could install them correctly with the carbs upside down. With the carbs right side up, you would want to put the spring on the screw first, then the washer, then the o-ring last before inserting it in the carb.

Like this - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/File:BC_cleaning_4.jpg

Is that how you did it?

Because you said the adjustments didn't seem to do much, I'd say there is an issue with that circuit. Either the passages are still partially plugged or the adjustment screws are assembled incorrectly.
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Old November 21st, 2018, 07:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Couple things -

I don't think you could install them correctly with the carbs upside down. With the carbs right side up, you would want to put the spring on the screw first, then the washer, then the o-ring last before inserting it in the carb.

Like this - [url
https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/File:BC_cleaning_4.jpg[/url]

Is that how you did it?

Because you said the adjustments didn't seem to do much, I'd say there is an issue with that circuit. Either the passages are still partially plugged or the adjustment screws are assembled incorrectly.
Yeah, that's exactly how it's assembled. I tried to describe how I orientated the carb so that the mixture screw assembly went in upwards so it didn't come apart as it entered the port before being screwed into place.
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Old November 21st, 2018, 08:05 AM   #25
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That can be a symptom of valves out of adjustment. How long since they were adjusted to spec?
When I bought it I ran a feeler gauge through them and they seemed pretty darn snug so I thought nothing of it and left them alone considering the bikes low miles. Now I'm learning the valves on these engines tend to fall out of spec by closing up rather than the usual sloppy, wider clearance. With that in mind, a valve adjustment is now my next to-do item.

I hope to make time for it this weekend. I'll report back with my findings.

Thanks for the insight!
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Old November 21st, 2018, 08:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgerdad View Post
When I bought it I ran a feeler gauge through them and they seemed pretty darn snug so I thought nothing of it and left them alone considering the bikes low miles. Now I'm learning the valves on these engines tend to fall out of spec by closing up rather than the usual sloppy, wider clearance. With that in mind, a valve adjustment is now my next to-do item.

I hope to make time for it this weekend. I'll report back with my findings.

Thanks for the insight!
I'm not saying for sure that's the problem, but my '05 250 did what you describe when I got it. When cold it wanted to idle at a couple thousand RPM or about 600, and wouldn't stabilize anywhere between. When it warmed up it was almost OK. The valve adjustment completely cured that problem, and also make it way easier to start.
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Old November 21st, 2018, 10:24 AM   #27
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i had mis-adjusted mine, and it would completely lose a cylinder once the engine warmed up
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 03:09 PM   #28
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Update 11/22

Had some time today so I went through the complete valve adjustment which I found to be pretty straight forward. Final result: still runs like a dog turd.

I'll try to take it in to the shop sometime next week.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 03:14 PM   #29
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did u reach out to ductiman? seems like you've done everything a shop would do
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 03:19 PM   #30
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did u reach out to ductiman?
No, I can't isolate the problem to the carbs so I want to avoid the time & cost of sending it out only to put it back on and have it perform the same.

I've cleaned out the carbs and set them multiple times, this thing is as clean as can be, not to mention it wasn't too bad to begin with.

I'd prefer to rely on the shop because they can look at the whole bike. If they incorrectly diagnose it, they won't get paid for unnecessary parts/labor.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 03:24 PM   #31
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as stated b4, unless you have specialized cleaning machines, you will get not get it back to factory fresh/new. does anybody close to you have a pregen ninja? maybe they will let you borrow their carbs for the day to see if thats the problem.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 03:51 PM   #32
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any pregen peeps close?

can anybody close to dodgerdad let him borrow a set of pregen carbs?
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:06 PM   #33
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@dodgerdad....

If you were to fully warm up the bike (as when setting the pilot screws) with choke lever confirmed in off position...what effect does slowly turning each pilot screw (not both at same time, but one side at a time) all the way IN have? (to lightly closed, not jammed shut)

As the screw is turned in...does it lower RPM from that cylinder? As it approaches closed position, does that cylinder continue to run? At closed, does the cylinder nearly shut down? But return the screw to 2 1/2 OR preferably the setting that achieves the highest RPM....THEN do the opposite side.

Does EACH side have the same, near approximate partial and fully shutdown results? Or radically different?

A cooling fan blowing towards the radiator/engine is a good idea....as are gloves or rags strategically placed to shield from burning your hands.

Please discuss your findings here, be careful, repeat test as necessary.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:11 PM   #34
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can anybody close to dodgerdad let him borrow a set of pregen carbs?
Thanks, Maverick.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:18 PM   #35
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@dodgerdad....

If you were to fully warm up the bike (as when setting the pilot screws) with choke lever confirmed in off position...what effect does slowly turning each pilot screw (not both at same time, but one side at a time) all the way IN have? (to lightly closed, not jammed shut)

As the screw is turned in...does it lower RPM from that cylinder? As it approaches closed position, does that cylinder continue to run? At closed, does the cylinder nearly shut down? But return the screw to 2 1/2 OR preferably the setting that achieves the highest RPM....THEN do the opposite side.

Does EACH side have the same, near approximate partial and fully shutdown results? Or radically different?

A cooling fan blowing towards the radiator/engine is a good idea....as are gloves or rags strategically placed to shield from burning your hands.

Please discuss your findings here, be careful, repeat test as necessary.
I have not performed this type of test so I'll certainly give it a shot (hopefully this weekend) and post my findings. At this point I'd be very happy to isolate the source even if I have to have it handled by a professional. I'll post back ASAP, appreciate the help.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:21 PM   #36
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I neglected to ask, in your opening post you stated it was a non-runner...just how long did it sit dormant? Sat with fuel loaded?

And did you perform your prior cleaning attempts using real deal compressed air?

And do you have access to a precise, reliable manometer?
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:21 PM   #37
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Thanks, Maverick.
i had a parallel on this and fought my carbs on red for a year with dannoxyz constantly twisting my arm to swap greens carbs in, and low and behold it worked and i got reds carbs properly cleaned(which now doing duty in godzilla) yes, i was stubborn and bullheaded.if i had a pregen bike, my carbs would be at your disposal anytime. unfortunately I'm newgen.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:27 PM   #38
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I neglected to ask, in your opening post you stated it was a non-runner...just how long did it sit dormant? Sat with fuel loaded?
I don't know how long it sat but when I put in a new battery it fired right up, just wouldn't idle without choke. When I opened the carbs one had a little gunk in the main jet, the other had a clogged pilot jet, it truly wasn't bad. It did have gas in tank and carbs. No rust anywhere. I dumped all the gas, removed filter and installed an inline filter.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:42 PM   #39
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Also forgot, was any carb modding evident? Adjustable needles, giant main jets or such?

Its also fairly conceivable to find hogged out or grossly oversized pilot jets too, especially in the presence of a jet kit.

A stock jetted prejen should have had 105 main, 38 pilot, N161 needles...did you confirm proper components?

What year is the bike, anyways?

Hey, a regular inquisition, but I'm just trying to cover the routine bases.
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Old November 22nd, 2018, 06:52 PM   #40
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Also forgot, was any carb modding evident? Adjustable needles, giant main jets or such?

Its also fairly conceivable to find hogged out or grossly oversized pilot jets too, especially in the presence of a jet kit.

A stock jetted prejen should have had 105 main, 38 pilot, N161 needles...did you confirm proper components?

What year is the bike, anyways?

Hey, a regular inquisition, but I'm just trying to cover the routine bases.
The bike is a 2007, very clean CA model. It's completely stock. I confirmed the main is a 105, didn't write down the other components. Thanks for trying to sort it out.
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