Interest in minimal racebike wiring harnesses?

[InvisiBill]

I've been rolling around the idea of making some custom wiring harness products for a while. I've seen a number of threads here with people (who generally don't know much about electrical stuff) asking how to remove/modify circuits for racebikes, or even just for repairs or customizations on street bikes. This stuff is quite logical and simple for me, so I've always wished I could just whip up something that worked rather than trying to explain to people what they need to change to get what they're looking for.

Ideally, I'd love to offer a complete replacement main harness that plugged directly into all remaining factory plugs, and just made everything work the way you'd want it to. At this point, I haven't really done anything more than just going over the design in my head, so I don't have any details beyond the theoretical. But completely remaking the main harness allows you to really tailor the electrical system for a minimal racebike, without having to modify anything else on the bike.

For example, most of the junction box consists of safety switch circuitry and fuses for lights. On a racebike, the only things you'd really be using are the fuses for the Ignition and Fan. A new harness could be wired up to completely eliminate the j-box (the Main fuse would be the only fuse on the bike) or to repurpose it so some of the grouped circuits are divided up onto their own fuses a little better (Headlight fuse powers dash gauges, Taillight fuse powers dash illumination, Ignition fuse powers only the igniter, etc.). The keyswitch could be eliminated with the killswitch repurposed as a master on/off switch.

I haven't looked into how much the wire or OEM plugs would cost (or availability of the plugs), or how much time it would actually take me to make these, so I don't really have a good estimate on pricing. I'm thinking there'd be a decent investment to make it a quality PnP item, but I also know that one of the main reasons people choose these bikes is that they're inexpensive. I'd like to get some idea of what people would pay for a 100% PnP, better-than-OEM harness that made their racebike exactly the way they wanted it, with no electrical work other than pulling out the OEM harness and dropping this one in. If it's too expensive, it won't be worth it for you guys to buy them; if it's too cheap, I won't be able to afford to make them. For some comparison, the 26031-1123 harness for the '12 250 is over $200 from Partzilla (~$280 MSRP).

[Alex]

/poll added

[mgentz]

What if we give you a harness to modify? I can get one off eBay for $50 or less.

[netdobeiras]

The OEM wire harness for the taillights on a pregen can be had on corsa technics for about 1.5 dollar. I used it to make a plug and play brake light modulator for my bike and it works fine and fits fine.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by mgentz

What if we give you a harness to modify? I can get one off eBay for $50 or less.

It could be another option to modify your harness as a service. Depending on the exact details of what mods you want done and the cost of parts, it could end up being about the same price to just make a new one from scratch vs. buying a used harness and the labor involved in converting it, plus shipping back and forth. The general idea is to make the harness as simple as possible, so there would be fewer plugs and wires involved, which reduces the cost of making one from scratch and means a good portion of a donor harness would simply be thrown away. For some of the mods I have in mind, using a donor harness might mean soldering two different wires together (less than ideal) or replacing them both with a single run of new wire (making at least part of it "from scratch" anyway).

I don't think I'd want to rely on buying used harnesses as a basis for my product though. The savings would have to be pretty significant for dealing with the hassles of availability, shipping, possible existing damage, etc. on eBay stuff. I'd much rather just start with my own brand new wire and put a few plugs on, with no more than needed of either one.


It looks like there are at least a few people interested in these, so I probably need to start taking a closer look at exactly what parts and time would be involved in making them, so I can get a better idea of cost and therefore price. I'm not looking to get rich off you guys or anything, but I don't want to spend a couple hours on each one to make $0.25 either. I'm hoping I can make a good product at a reasonable price and still have it be worth my while.


Any input on the features I mentioned? I've got the technical know-how and some ideas on what I think I would like in a wiring harness, but people who actually have experience with racebikes are probably better suited to say what works well and what doesn't.

• Junction box removal - I'm not sure if the simplification to a single Main fuse would be helpful enough to make up for increasing the difficulty of troubleshooting if you do run into an electrical problem. This would require safety switch removal too.
• Killswitch master on/off - Assuming the killswitch can handle the full current, I'm not sure if people would prefer to ditch the keyswitch completely or just replace it with a simple on/off toggle switch and still have the separate killswitch.
• Safety switch removal - I assume most of these bikes will have the kickstand removed, but I don't know if people would want to keep the neutral/clutch starter safety switches.
• R/R upgrade plugs - If you have or will get an upgraded MOSFET R/R, I could include Furukawa plugs for it right on the harness. I think R/R is a bigger concern for street riders with accessories though.
• Total loss system - If you want to go hardcore, the charging stuff could be completely eliminated.
• Aftermarket gauges - If you have a Koso or TransLogic or something, this would be a great time to set up matching plugs on the dash and main harness. With enough info, extra sensor wires could be added to the harness as well.
• Something else I'm forgetting?

My thinking is to have a "standard" harness with the most common setup, then allow you to pick a few custom additions/deletions. For example, it's not a big deal to slap on the other R/R plugs, they just add a little cost. It shouldn't be too hard to change from the keyswitch to the killswitch, it's just slightly different wiring and one less connector.

[SLOWn60]

I voted $150-200
Because; I know I'd end up spending an entire day organizing my plan, obtaining connectors etc and actually doing the work! It would be far more productive for me to work that day, pay you and still have a few bucks left for something else!
Once organized; I suspect you can do each harness in less than an hour and less than $20 for materials and another hour customizing your basic plan plus time & costs for shipping.
I'm in for a harness! Maybe figure out a group buy too (one ship to address)! I can probably convince a half dozen or so local racers to get in on it!

On the otherhand; it is fun to tinker on the bikes with a cold pop, a little music or race DVD's and a buddy or two hanging around offering free advice!

[psych0hans]

I'm cheap, so I voted 50-100. Please make me one for an EFI Ninja 250. I'll send you my f**ked up one if you want... I f**ked it up trying to do the same thing.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

I voted $150-200
Because; I know I'd end up spending an entire day organizing my plan, obtaining connectors etc and actually doing the work! It would be far more productive for me to work that day, pay you and still have a few bucks left for something else!
Once organized; I suspect you can do each harness in less than an hour and less than $20 for materials and another hour customizing your basic plan plus time & costs for shipping.
I'm in for a harness! Maybe figure out a group buy too (one ship to address)! I can probably convince a half dozen or so local racers to get in on it!

On the otherhand; it is fun to tinker on the bikes with a cold pop, a little music or race DVD's and a buddy or two hanging around offering free advice! :)

My biggest concern is the price of the OEM connectors. I still have to look into exactly which ones are needed (and the differences between PreGen and NewGen), but I don't expect to be buying 10,000 of them at a time, so I'll probably be paying closer to retail prices (~a couple bucks each), assuming I can actually find all of them for sale. Depending on how many plugs you need, those can add up quickly.

Assuming those are reasonable, the wire shouldn't be too expensive and it's basically just attaching the terminals to the wires and sticking them in the plugs. Once you've got a diagram of which wires/lengths are needed, it should be pretty quick work. I might even invest in some of the professional crimping tools, which should both make it easier for me and produce better results for you (but that's an expensive investment if I'm only going to sell 5 of these for $5 profit each).

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

I'm cheap, so I voted 50-100. Please make me one for an EFI Ninja 250. I'll send you my f**ked up one if you want... I f**ked it up trying to do the same thing.

I'm not sure about the costs of international shipping back and forth, plus I'm sure the EFI harness is more complex and I have less knowledge of it (since it's not available here). I don't think I've even seen a wiring diagram for the EFI.

Since the carbed bikes are so simple, there's not much left after you remove the lighting circuits (and even less if you get rid of the safety switches), so it makes sense to just build a new one from scratch (maybe, we'll see how the numbers work out). For the EFI bikes, it might make more sense to just pick out the unneeded circuits and maybe consolidate a few separate wires into new single runs (depending on exactly what you're trying to achieve).

[DCMoney]

Won't be worth your time.

I make PnP Starter/Ignition combo switches for the KTM 390's and even at $50 each it's not worth my time.

Also use Corsa-tech for all my OEM plugs that place is great!

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

Won't be worth your time.

I make PnP Starter/Ignition combo switches for the KTM 390's and even at $50 each it's not worth my time.

Also use Corsa-tech for all my OEM plugs that place is great!

That sucks to hear, from someone with experience doing this sort of thing. The only upside to this harness is that it's basically just wire and some plugs (and hopefully quite a bit less than stock), as opposed to your switch mechanism. I'll probably still do a bit more research and see what numbers I can come up with. (I do have a bit of past experience with making some electronics for forum users.)

Here's a quick comparison of the stock NewGen wiring diagram versus removing just the exterior lights and horn. All the safety switches are still there and no other mods (like using the killswitch for a master on/off) are shown. Even without any other changes, that still cleans up a lot of stuff.

[psych0hans]

Just do it!

@DCMoney I'm interested in your kit, will it work on an Asia spec 390?

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Just do it!

@DCMoney I'm interested in your kit, will it work on an Asia spec 390?

I would think so, you would lose function of the headlight on/off switch. Most people buying these are using their 390s for race only.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Took me 9 try's to get both "on" & "off" screen shots!

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

I would think so, you would lose function of the headlight on/off switch. Most people buying these are using their 390s for race only.

I don't mind losing the on-off function, just worried about the plugs matching. Also, this doesn't bypass the ignition key does it? I'll probably short the on-off thing to be always on.

[AchyGrappler]

I would like to see the fuse box and CDI box relocated to under the seat as part of the harness. Also having the reg-rec be able to be located in the air stream would be good. This could be accomplished with some pig tails with the right male-female plugs to branch off the race harness.

I like the other features you mention. The only concern for people running in production classes is the requirement for stock harnesses. I think AFM has that in the rule book, but CVMA doesn't.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

I'm cheap, so I voted 50-100. Please make me one for an EFI Ninja 250. I'll send you my f**ked up one if you want... I f**ked it up trying to do the same thing.

I'll PM you about this.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Took me 9 try's to get both "on" & "off" screen shots!

I have a full-size copy of my cleaned up version (I'm still working on it, as my guideline for how I want to do this simplified harness), I just did a smaller animated GIF as a quick way to show just how much can be removed even just for the lights. Also, any image program that can handle animated GIFs (like GIMP) will let you open the file and see the individual frames.

Honestly, there's not much more to this image than just starting at the lights and deleting the wires that are hooked to them. It can get a little tricky around the headlight relay and the ignition switch (especially if you don't really understand how those parts are affecting the circuit), but that's about the worst of it. The vast majority of it is simply erasing the lines connected to the lights you no longer need.


If I do end up actually making these harnesses, I plan to draw up a new diagram. At the very least, it'll be a cleaned up version of the stocker (like I've got now, but a little nicer). Depending on how simplified it gets and the cost to match the stock wire colors, I may end up using different colors, so I'd want to diagram those out to avoid confusion. I have yet to find a good (preferably free) program for drawing wiring diagrams though, so it might mean some manual work in a regular image program.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I have yet to find a good (preferably free) program for drawing wiring diagrams though, so it might mean some manual work in a regular image program.

PowerPoint is almost free.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

I would like to see the fuse box and CDI box relocated to under the seat as part of the harness. Also having the reg-rec be able to be located in the air stream would be good. This could be accomplished with some pig tails with the right male-female plugs to branch off the race harness.

Any thoughts on completely removing the fuse box?

With the lights removed, there's not much left for it to do. You have switched power going in to supply the Ignition fuse (powers the igniter and dash gauges/warning lights) and the Taillight fuse (powers the dash illumination lights, which you may not even care about on your racebike). You have constant power going in to supply the Fan (radiator) fuse. The 500/PreGen junction box includes the relays for the starter and headlight circuits and the diodes for the safety circuits, but it looks like those things are separate on the NewGen. You'd still have the 30A Main fuse to protect against electrical problems, but you'd lose the ability to see which circuit (of the 3 left on the bike) was blowing the fuse. Maybe replacing the stock fusebox with something like the 3 Circuit Solution setup would be the best of both worlds, with minimal cost (<$10).

For the 500/PreGen, it might be more work than it's worth to add in the relays and diodes from the other half of the j-box (replacing what you just ripped out), but it could give you a more straightforward and modular system (I know Ghostt had the headlight relay fail in one of his j-boxes, which meant buying a whole new j-box). Without the NewGen's stock mounting brackets for all the relays and diodes, it might mean a pile of stuff just crammed under your seat though.


As for relocating things, I'm trying to make this as PnP as possible. If you're stripping your bike down to the bare essentials for racing, you can probably handle mounting the boxes in a slightly different place. However, I don't want to force people to do that just to use my harness. Depending on exactly how it was relocated, it might be possible to design the harness in a way that allows you to put it in either location ("route this branch down for the stock location or up for the alternate location").

It doesn't seem to be as big an issue on the faired sportbikes with the R/R mounted higher up, but I know the Vulcans had a lot of issues with the unsealed connectors in the charging circuits. I wouldn't want to use a M-F extension just for a couple extra inches. However, it should be possible to have an option to lengthen that branch a bit, or may be even have it long enough for an alternate location while still being able to conveniently route to the stock location, as previously mentioned. If you're concerned about R/R heat, look into the MOSFET conversion. They operate in a much more efficient way and inherently generate a lot less heat while providing more stable output.

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

The only concern for people running in production classes is the requirement for stock harnesses. I think AFM has that in the rule book, but CVMA doesn't.

As I have no experience with racing, this is something I can't comment on. I know different groups have different rules about what you can and can't change, but I'd have to leave it up to the buyer to decide if they're allowed to use this aftermarket product (just like any other they're considering). Again, I could also offer the option of modification services if you're allowed to have a minimized stock harness, but not an (electrically-identical) aftermarket harness.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by dcj13

PowerPoint is almost free.

Visio would probably be better, and I could probably get access to it if I wanted to go that route.

I was hoping to find a hobbyist app that actually handled striped coloring of wires and such. I assume that there's some sort of professional software for drawing the diagrams like http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...ng_diagram.png, but I haven't really seen anything for us cheapos.

[AchyGrappler]

Those were thoughts I had when thinking about doing a minimalist harness for myself. Since I am trying to put together a race bike I have thought it over some. Call it market research for your idea of selling your harnesses. As for the race org rules, again just letting you know what your market is like. There are many Ninjette riders in production classes many of which require stock harnesses. The market for your product may be smaller than you would imagine. Food for thought.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

Those were thoughts I had when thinking about doing a minimalist harness for myself. Since I am trying to put together a race bike I have thought it over some. Call it market research for your idea of selling your harnesses. As for the race org rules, again just letting you know what your market is like. There are many Ninjette riders in production classes many of which require stock harnesses. The market for your product may be smaller than you would imagine. Food for thought.

I do appreciate the input. Since these would all be done by hand by me, there's not a whole lot of difference if I sell 2 or 200, other than some discounts on the raw materials (I think I sold about 10 of the Syclone OBD cables). I just like to tinker and solve problems and help people out. If I can use my electrical skills to make a few bucks (I'm not trying to make my regular job wage, but I don't want to be slave labor either) and provide a useful product for people who can't do it on their own, I'd be happy. (I'm still trying to figure out an easier/better way to do the no-cut diode harness.)

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I'll PM you about this.

Not received any PM bo.

[cbinker]

it would be nice to remove all irrelevant wiring.

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

I don't mind losing the on-off function, just worried about the plugs matching. Also, this doesn't bypass the ignition key does it? I'll probably short the on-off thing to be always on.

It does bypass the stock ignition. Getting the correct plugs is the easy part.

In my picture the 2 wire plug with the red and white wires going into it is the stock ignition plug.

On the 390s if you tie those two together, you just hotwired a 390... Stupid easy.

[Shawn00sa]

Do sell these?

[DannoXYZ]

Hi Shawn
I do make these on occasion.



Removed wiring sections saves about 1.25 lbs.




PM me for details.