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Old April 9th, 2018, 02:59 AM   #1
varunmulloli
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Question Concussions - is it expected or helmet failure?

My friend crashed on his Ninja 300 yesterday while coming back from a long ride. He was in full riding gear, so nothing major happened except for a dislocated right shoulder and a friction burn on right arm. But he doesn't seem to remember anything about what happened yesterday. And post crash when he got home, he was not able to remember the conversations we had and kept on asking the same questions over and over again every 5 minutes. Now he's okay.

He had a brand new HJC CS-15 lid and it was in decent shape post crash. It had minor scratches on the shell on the top as well as one side, one vent broke and the visor got detached. The EPS liner under the paddings seem to be pretty solid as well. My question - is this sort of behaviour expected? I had a head first impact crash 3 years ago (on a much cheaper helmet) and I didn't have any concussions and was still able to ride on. In his case, has the helmet transferred the impact energy directly on to his head?

(P.S. Forgot to take pictures)
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Old April 9th, 2018, 06:19 AM   #2
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If you hit your head, concussions are very common. Even if you do not hit your head you could get a concussion. Your brain floats around in your head and any sudden stop of your head can cause the brain to bounce of your skull. Causing trauma to the brain therefore a concussion. I have had 4 in my life, 1 as a toddler fell of a box, 2 playing football, 1 in a motorcycle crash.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 06:25 AM   #3
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sounds like a bad helmet, unless he was head and toe back flipping that will be beyond what some helmets can handle. 3 years ago crashed (being vary dumb for my age) and had an old hjc on that I was already going to replace because it was that old that the insides were that bad, didn't have a problem with it in the crash, popping up right away after it tell I realized I had broken stuff then layed back down. Had heard the the quality of hjc's had dropped, they changed the shape of the helmet that I didn't feel comfortable wearing them making sore spots on my head, so didn't by them again after that if that helps.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 06:45 AM   #4
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A lot of it depends upon dynamics of each crash. I’ve crashed at +100mph and been fine and crashed at 40mph with minor concussion. Lowsides and sliding tends to be mild. Any kind of tumbling can “flip” your head and feet around so that their velocity is actually higher than speed you were traveling. It’s kinda snapping end of whip. Landing when you’re spinning can hit your head at twice speed of travel. Sudden deceleration smashes brain into inside of skull.

Should take your friend to hospital for checkup. It takes a while for brain to fully swell and a lot of people with concussions die 2-3 days later when they appear fine.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 9th, 2018 at 09:32 AM.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 06:48 AM   #5
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Everyone is different. I don't think it's a helmet issue.

If there was enough force to dislocate his shoulder there was enough force for a concussion.

My son has had 3 concussions, mostly from from sports (and messing around - but not cycles). I know of 2 people that got concussions from being hit by volleyballs.

Last year I slipped on the ice and both feet went out. Luckily I landed on my head. No concussion. Hard head pays off...
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Old April 9th, 2018, 09:25 AM   #6
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I agree your friend should be checked out by medical personnel. Even a low speed crash can cause a concussion- I got one from falling over off my bicycle. And he will definitely need to replace that helmet. If he hit hard enough to cause a concussion, it's toast. Even though it looks fine.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 09:34 AM   #7
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Helmets are pretty good at keeping irregular shaped objects from cracking your skull, but not as good at stopping concussions. The best a helmet can do if you're sliding along at 20 mph and your head hits a wall is provide an inch or two of distance to slow down and stop your head, instead of it hitting the wall directly. An inch or two is not enough to prevent a concussion in a case like that.

As stated above, it's more dependent on the specifics of the whack to the head than the helmet itself. The idea that our gear will keep us from getting hurt is a fallacy.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 09:42 AM   #8
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Well, helmets really do help tremendously in the majority of impacts with no injuries whatsover. Just at the extremes, they result in concussions instead of death!

Whenever someone brings up the weight or comfort issue, I hand them a helmet and say, "Here try this on, you won't even notice it's on." As I surreptitiously reach for baseball bat and give'em a solid WHACK on helmet! Then I say, "Let's try that again without the helmet!!!". No one ever does...
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Old April 9th, 2018, 12:25 PM   #9
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Just in the last few years has anyone marketed a helmet intended to reduce concussions. Look up 6-D and some of the latest Bell helmets with "mips" i believe is their marketing term.
This topic brings up the old debate of some of the Snell standards being too tough and resulting in more concussions than DOT or other more relaxed standards. I avoided snell 2010 for exactly that reason, id rather take the higher risk of death in exchange for a helmet that scramble my brain less in a more typical fall. Long term permanent brain injury scares me more than death so give me the softer helmet.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 01:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
Just in the last few years has anyone marketed a helmet intended to reduce concussions. Look up 6-D and some of the latest Bell helmets with "mips" i believe is their marketing term.
This topic brings up the old debate of some of the Snell standards being too tough and resulting in more concussions than DOT or other more relaxed standards. I avoided snell 2010 for exactly that reason, id rather take the higher risk of death in exchange for a helmet that scramble my brain less in a more typical fall. Long term permanent brain injury scares me more than death so give me the softer helmet.
In one helmet test, years ago, they found a softer poly carbonate shell (Z1R brand helmet) transferred the least amount of impact. The softer shell flexed and absorbed some of the force that the harder shell just transferred.

To the OP - just make sure your friend replaces the helmet - it did it job and is now junk.

This is what I did with my last one that aged-out -

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Old April 9th, 2018, 01:36 PM   #11
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Ahahahah!!! That's awesome!!!
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Old April 9th, 2018, 03:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varunmulloli View Post
My friend crashed on his Ninja 300 yesterday while coming back from a long ride. He was in full riding gear, so nothing major happened except for a dislocated right shoulder and a friction burn on right arm. But he doesn't seem to remember anything about what happened yesterday. And post crash when he got home, he was not able to remember the conversations we had and kept on asking the same questions over and over again every 5 minutes. Now he's okay.

He had a brand new HJC CS-15 lid and it was in decent shape post crash. It had minor scratches on the shell on the top as well as one side, one vent broke and the visor got detached. The EPS liner under the paddings seem to be pretty solid as well. My question - is this sort of behaviour expected? I had a head first impact crash 3 years ago (on a much cheaper helmet) and I didn't have any concussions and was still able to ride on. In his case, has the helmet transferred the impact energy directly on to his head?

(P.S. Forgot to take pictures)
If he doesn't remember details of the crash than he my have other medical issues.

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Old April 9th, 2018, 04:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
Just in the last few years has anyone marketed a helmet intended to reduce concussions. Look up 6-D and some of the latest Bell helmets with "mips" i believe is their marketing term.
This topic brings up the old debate of some of the Snell standards being too tough and resulting in more concussions than DOT or other more relaxed standards. I avoided snell 2010 for exactly that reason, id rather take the higher risk of death in exchange for a helmet that scramble my brain less in a more typical fall. Long term permanent brain injury scares me more than death so give me the softer helmet.
From what I have read, the new Snell is "softer" than the 2010, more in line with the Europe's ECE22.05. What most people don't know is that Snell was initiated to protect race car drivers who are surrounded by roll bars, hence the requirement that they can withstand multiple hits (even if it transfers more G's) in the same spot. Motorcycle crashes aren't too likely to hit the same spot twice in a wreck. I so wish that the G's that helmets transfer to the head were on a label inside the helmet right along with the rating and size label.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 04:39 PM   #14
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I came off a dirt bike and landed on my head in some pretty soft sand. I was unconscious for 5-10 minutes and had some pretty serious memory loss for a while.

So yeah even wearing a helmet you can still get a concussion.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 04:48 PM   #15
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Here's a research story that Dexter Ford did that caused a chit storm at Motorcyclist Magazine when it was printed. All the Snell helmet advertisers threatened to pull their ads from the magazine! You won't find the story in the Motorcyclist archives anymore.


https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Mo...stHelmets.html
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Old April 9th, 2018, 09:09 PM   #16
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It's a bit misleading for them to leave that article posted up there, and remove any date for when it was relevant. It's almost 10 years old at this point, is specifically critical of the Snell M2010 standard, which has been superceded for years. it shouldn't be used at this point to identify the safest helmets, and its conclusions may or may not have much merit compared to the current standards (either US, Europe, or Asia).
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Old April 10th, 2018, 01:51 AM   #17
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Thank you all for sharing your valuable experiences here. My friend took a full medical checkup from a hospital and they found a minor fracture on one of his fingers on the left hand as well. They advised him to take some rest for 3 weeks. Other than that he's
alright.

So I guess most of us agree to these points:
* Concussions are pretty regular in crashes
* The helmet has done its job and should not be reused, irrespective of how it looks

Thank you all!
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Old April 10th, 2018, 03:18 AM   #18
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Thanks largely to the NFL and NHL, concussions are starting to be taken seriously. Really up until the last 10 years or so, if you didn't wind up with a skull fracture or major brain damage, *everybody* figured the helmet had done it's job. Having a bell-ringer was just a sign that you survived something you probably wouldn't have without the helmet. Which is still true, but...

In the case of the NFL and NHL, (along with other contact sports), the forces generated *usually* don't actually generate enough force to cause fatal or crippling injuries anyway. So now they're kind of re-directing to tune the way their helmets are engineered to be better at preventing concussions since those happen pretty often, and we're starting to realize they have a bigger effect on people in the long term.

Coming back to motorcycle helmets, the forces we encounter in a wreck are still plenty enough to cause skull fractures and subdural hematoma. I'm gonna cite experience on this one, as I work as an ICU nurse and started out in Idaho, which doesn't have a helmet law. As far as current materials and engineering are concerned, they could re-tune for less G force during lower impact crashes vs a set G force with a higher speed impact (ECE vs Snell, as an example). But there's always going to be a trade-off unless you want to wear a gigantic helmet.

There's some interesting new developments being tried out, though. Mips, mostly used by Bell, helps cut rotational forces, without adding much weight or bulk. Klim just came out with Koroyd for their dirt helmets (using plastic tubes instead of foam) which should allow for multiple impacts and better tune-ability than foam. And, of course, they're getting lighter which means a bit less momentum for the head/helmet package.

Most of these are too expensive for a lot of riders, though. So we're stuck with choosing where we want to be on the "surviving one nasty impact vs being clear-headed after a smaller impact" continuum. For the time being, I'd still stick with the old-school advice to find something that fits good and is ECE or Snell certified. And wear the damn thing.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 04:37 AM   #19
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It's a bit misleading for them to leave that article posted up there, and remove any date for when it was relevant. It's almost 10 years old at this point, is specifically critical of the Snell M2010 standard, which has been superceded for years. it shouldn't be used at this point to identify the safest helmets, and its conclusions may or may not have much merit compared to the current standards (either US, Europe, or Asia).
I agree completely, I didn't notice that the article wasn't dated, it was originally published in the June 2005 magazine. And because the helmet manufacturers are always coming out with new lids to meet new specs, is the reason I'd like to see a label showing test results, or at least a pamphlet in the box with new helmets showing the results.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 06:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Z1R rider View Post
Here's a research story that Dexter Ford did that caused a chit storm at Motorcyclist Magazine when it was printed. All the Snell helmet advertisers threatened to pull their ads from the magazine! You won't find the story in the Motorcyclist archives anymore.


https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Mo...stHelmets.html
Thanks.

That was the testing I was referring to in my earlier post.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 06:51 AM   #21
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NFL football players have the best in protection. They still get concussions all the time. It's not the helmet as one dope suggested. DOT approved is the guideline. Some helmets are better the others, but any crash brings the risk of a concussion.
The guy who crashed has a nice wall hanger to remind him of that day.

Remember always wear an approve helmet. You spend your money and takes your risks.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 03:59 PM   #22
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It's a bit misleading for them to leave that article posted up there, and remove any date for when it was relevant. It's almost 10 years old at this point, is specifically critical of the Snell M2010 standard, which has been superceded for years. it shouldn't be used at this point to identify the safest helmets, and its conclusions may or may not have much merit compared to the current standards (either US, Europe, or Asia).
To me, Snell is nothing more than a marketing campaign. Put a $1 sticker on a helmet so it can sell for $50 more. That's pretty much it.

The old standards were bad, and the new standards aren't much better, Snell helmet testing still favors helmets that are too stiff.

There are more and newer studies than that 10 year old article, mostly in Europe. Most declare the Snell standards as dangerously too stiff. Snell has responded to some of these with damage control.

Even though Snell is a "non profit" company, the people there are highly paid and very defensive when serious valid concerns arise about their standards. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that Snell is generally a worthless company that should be disbanded in favor of much better European helmet standards. The reason they still exist is that the Snell sticker still has value as a marketing campaign.

Just my opinion.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:33 AM   #23
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I'm going to self proclaim as highly knowledgeable in the subject.

My profession and education are Biomedical Engineering.
I also played Hockey for 50 years and had my final boxing match at age 49 and 364 days. I've lost count of the concussions, though I do suffer the consequences. In my desire to continue playing and fighting I spent considerable time researching helmets and helmet technology.

Concussion occurs when the brain impacts against the skull such as when head hits pavement, through rotational movement such as severe twisting of the head, and also on rebound.
When we have a hard impact, the brain slams into the skull on the side of the impact and then rebounds and hits directly opposite. This is known as a contracoup injury.

A helmet might mitigate the deceleration injury (concussion) through good design, but short of being a 1 meter diameter nerf ball around our head it can't prevent it.

What a helmet can do is spread out the impact and absorb the impact preventing damage to our skull and face bones.

Some deceleration mitigation is evident in today's helmets and in some cases some rotational protection is being designed.
Hockey helmets in particular are incorporating rotational protection.

If that sounds as if I'm saying any helmet works, rest assured I'm not. Good does not mean expensive but always and every time wear a good helmet.

I personally from an engineering point see little value in DOT and Snell.

ECE looks much better for real world impact. I looked at the SHARP ratings and made the personal decision to never purchase less than 4 star SHARP and ECE rated helmets.
I ended up with a $100 LS2 Arrow.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:57 AM   #24
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^^^^^ thanks for the first hand info
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Old April 15th, 2018, 09:26 AM   #25
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I'm going to self proclaim as highly knowledgeable in the subject.

My profession and education are Biomedical Engineering.
I also played Hockey for 50 years and had my final boxing match at age 49 and 364 days. I've lost count of the concussions, though I do suffer the consequences. In my desire to continue playing and fighting I spent considerable time researching helmets and helmet technology.

Concussion occurs when the brain impacts against the skull such as when head hits pavement, through rotational movement such as severe twisting of the head, and also on rebound.
When we have a hard impact, the brain slams into the skull on the side of the impact and then rebounds and hits directly opposite. This is known as a contracoup injury.

A helmet might mitigate the deceleration injury (concussion) through good design, but short of being a 1 meter diameter nerf ball around our head it can't prevent it.

What a helmet can do is spread out the impact and absorb the impact preventing damage to our skull and face bones.

Some deceleration mitigation is evident in today's helmets and in some cases some rotational protection is being designed.
Hockey helmets in particular are incorporating rotational protection.

If that sounds as if I'm saying any helmet works, rest assured I'm not. Good does not mean expensive but always and every time wear a good helmet.

I personally from an engineering point see little value in DOT and Snell.

ECE looks much better for real world impact. I looked at the SHARP ratings and made the personal decision to never purchase less than 4 star SHARP and ECE rated helmets.
I ended up with a $100 LS2 Arrow.
Finally, a common sense/scientific explanation effects of of head impact. $800.00+ is for a motorcycle helmet is Gods way of sayin' you're makin' too much money.

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Old April 15th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #26
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What the experts say:


ECE R22-05 – Developed by the rather lengthily named United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, this is the most common helmet certification internationally, required by over 50 countries worldwide. It is approved for all competition events by AMA, WERA, FIM, CCS, Formula USA and the big one – MotoGP. It, much like the DOT standard, favours a more impact-absorbent helmet allowing a maximum of 275g’s (the ECE R22-05 anvil is either flat or “kerb shaped” depending on the test). The ECE R22-05 is arguably the most up-to-date helmet certification standard, it’s wide use in a variety of high-level motorcycle racing classes is reassuring to many. The ECE R22-05 has more in common with the DOT standard than either the Snell M2005 or M2010 standard, an ECE R22-05 certified helmet are likely to pass the DOT test and vice-versa.

Since I live and ride in the USA I will stick with DOT. Anything to do with the UN Economic Commission for Europe will not get my vote.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 02:48 PM   #27
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Any helmet is better than the bare noggin!
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Old April 26th, 2018, 03:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Cafe Racer View Post
What the experts say:


ECE R22-05 – Developed by the rather lengthily named United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, this is the most common helmet certification internationally, required by over 50 countries worldwide. It is approved for all competition events by AMA, WERA, FIM, CCS, Formula USA and the big one – MotoGP. It, much like the DOT standard, favours a more impact-absorbent helmet allowing a maximum of 275g’s (the ECE R22-05 anvil is either flat or “kerb shaped” depending on the test). The ECE R22-05 is arguably the most up-to-date helmet certification standard, it’s wide use in a variety of high-level motorcycle racing classes is reassuring to many. The ECE R22-05 has more in common with the DOT standard than either the Snell M2005 or M2010 standard, an ECE R22-05 certified helmet are likely to pass the DOT test and vice-versa.
Anyone surprised this quote equating ECE with DOT is right from here, a retailer selling < $100 helmets (their street catalog), all of which are outsourced to Chinese manufacturers, and none of which meet ECE anyway? These aren't experts. They are low-end resellers of cheaply made helmets.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 03:41 PM   #29
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Funny thing is, DOT eventually adopts most ECE standards anyway (or makes their own copycat). Some times decades later.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 08:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john pierson View Post
Any helmet is better than the bare noggin!
It was either 1966 or 1967 I was riding my Honda S90 and was stopped at a traffic light. A cop was tuning left in front of me and pointed to his head. New York State had just passed their helmet law and I wasn't wearing one. I wound-up buying one of those cheesy, metal flake helmets which were about as effective as your average high school football helmet. John's right however, any helmet is better than no helmet.

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