ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > General > Riding Skills

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 31st, 2015, 06:17 PM   #1
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
tail up under hard braking

i want to talk about more advanced braking technique... things you can do to get more out of the front brake at max pull... right now with my current BP habits and my bike setup, the rear will lift up before i lose traction on track. but i've seen other people brake harder. what am i doing wrong? bp is butt back, knees into tank sides. bike setup is wonky, setup for corners. front lowered about an inch and the rear is raised an inch. wondering if this is the reason? maybe i should lower both sides half an inch? its got plenty of clearance. it doesn't seem to matter if i brake body up or body down, and side to side doesn't seem to change anything until after the braking is done. obviously the brakes themselves are doing fine as well as the front tire... what am i doing wrong? how come people can out brake me? maybe its a weight thing? but i feel like there should be a way to compensate? should i just lower the rear? maybe higher rebound damping on the rear shock would help?
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote




Old March 31st, 2015, 07:36 PM   #2
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Let get the groundwork out of the way;

Assuming a well set up bike…

The bike cannot compensate for the rider moving around on it.
A rider sitting up on the tank with a tight grip and/or stiff arms will lend the bike to stoppie before losing front traction.

Now Alex, you have ridden my bike and the geometry setup is very similar to yours, lowered in the front and raised in the rear. The compression and rebound settings are heavily biased to heavy braking (my best skill). The difference may be in the settings in the shocks. My front setup is setup kinda medium on the low speed compression but with a stiffer spring for my weight (.85x10w). The 08 gsxr rear (stock spring) is a bit on the hard side (low speed) with fast rebound. I aint saying my bike is perfect, because I have my own issues with suspension mid-corner but I have absolutely NO issues while on the brakes. I can go get my notebook and post my settings for everything if you think it would help you.

What pads and line you have installed? Is it safe to assume the stock rotor and calipers?

Assuming good riding inputs, how is my setup different from yours?
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old March 31st, 2015, 07:42 PM   #3
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
stock rotor and caliper. but i just looked and rebound damping is pretty low. you know off hand what your rear rebound is set to?

ebc sintered pads with steel lines

so now that you mention it. its only on the bike with the r1 triangle.... the other bike has stock triangle with gsxr shock.... maybe i'm not getting enough travel with the r1 triangle... i'm going to try swapping them and see if it still happens
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


Old March 31st, 2015, 07:44 PM   #4
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
stock rotor and caliper. but i just looked and rebound damping is pretty low. you know off hand what your rear rebound is set to?

so now that you mention it. its only on the bike with the r1 triangle.... the other bike has stock triangle with gsxr shock.... maybe i'm not getting enough travel with the r1 triangle... i'm going to try swapping them and see if it still happens
I see, more info for ya. I am using the stock triangle and the bones fabbed up by rexbo.

EDIT: lol, I will get the rebound setting for ya ASAP, but I know it's gunna be opened up pretty far.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old March 31st, 2015, 07:52 PM   #5
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
dont worry about it. i'll play around and see what the new triangle changes. the r1 triangle has this weird taper... more progressive spring input i guess. i'll try screwin around with the rebound more and report back
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


Old March 31st, 2015, 09:24 PM   #6
Motofool
Daily Ninjette rider
 
Motofool's Avatar
 
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
..... what am i doing wrong? how come people can out brake me? maybe its a weight thing? but i feel like there should be a way to compensate? should i just lower the rear? maybe higher rebound damping on the rear shock would help?
Nothing internal to the assembly pilot-bike has influence on the braking capability.
If the weakest link, the front contact patch, keeps traction all the way, the front suspension is good enough to copy the irregularities of the track.

Maybe those riders are lighter than you, or their bikes are heavier than yours, or maybe they keep braking for a longer distance (hence, their deceleration is lower than yours).

It is all about the external forces to the bike (only the pointing aft force on the front contact patch in this extreme case) and the location of the combined center of gravity or mass.

At that very moment, there are only those two torques (force times lever), of opposite directions, fighting each other ...... at least in theory.

__________________________________________________
Motofool
.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
"Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí
Motofool is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old March 31st, 2015, 09:49 PM   #7
cbinker
Track Clown
 
cbinker's Avatar
 
Name: Chris
Location: Kingman, AZ
Join Date: May 2012

Motorcycle(s): '08 250R, 21 MV F3 800, Kawasaki 400 build

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Sep '15
Cheeseburgers, eat more Cheeseburgers with bacon.
__________________________________________________

TEAM ALFALFA
www.apexassassins.com
cbinker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 05:51 AM   #8
burningscooter
clutch
 
burningscooter's Avatar
 
Name: nameless
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Jul 2011

Motorcycle(s): L1 GSXR600

Posts: 543

Link to original page on YouTube. Like this?

burningscooter is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old April 1st, 2015, 05:54 AM   #9
verboten1
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
verboten1's Avatar
 
Name: Jason
Location: Monroe, MI
Join Date: May 2013

Motorcycle(s): '75 CB550:.'82 XV920:.'00 KLR650:.'00 EX250:.'08 Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - June '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbinker View Post
Cheeseburgers, eat more Cheeseburgers with bacon.
It doesn't work, the rear of my Ninja picks up pretty early as well, and that was last year before I dropped to 290
__________________________________________________
'82 XV920: Soon to be tracker--'00 KLR685:adv
--'04 DRZ400E--'12 Super Tenere --'13 Versys

Ride more, worry less.
verboten1 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 07:42 AM   #10
sharky nrk
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
 
sharky nrk's Avatar
 
Name: Neil
Location: Hutto, TX
Join Date: Feb 2009

Motorcycle(s): '07 ZX6R, '08 Versys, '09 250R Track, '93 F2/F3 Track

Posts: A lot.
Let me ask a different question first. When you say you cannot brake harder, what is the failure mode - are you braking up to the point you lock the front? That is essentially the only limiting factor to exactly how hard you can brake (well and going over the bars lol)
__________________________________________________
Keep it rubber side down and enjoy the ride
Get healthy - Get Fit - Change Your Life
Click Here Or PM Me To Find More - Advocare
sharky nrk is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 07:45 AM   #11
sharky nrk
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
 
sharky nrk's Avatar
 
Name: Neil
Location: Hutto, TX
Join Date: Feb 2009

Motorcycle(s): '07 ZX6R, '08 Versys, '09 250R Track, '93 F2/F3 Track

Posts: A lot.
The reason I ask is that if the front tire still has grip then there are things we can to/discuss/whatever to increase the amount of braking force until you run out of tire, if your running out of tire then we can also talk ways that may allow you to maximize the available grip you have.
__________________________________________________
Keep it rubber side down and enjoy the ride
Get healthy - Get Fit - Change Your Life
Click Here Or PM Me To Find More - Advocare
sharky nrk is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 07:57 AM   #12
cbinker
Track Clown
 
cbinker's Avatar
 
Name: Chris
Location: Kingman, AZ
Join Date: May 2012

Motorcycle(s): '08 250R, 21 MV F3 800, Kawasaki 400 build

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Sep '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by verboten1 View Post
It doesn't work, the rear of my Ninja picks up pretty early as well, and that was last year before I dropped to 290
i would say sit back further on the bike, get lower(chest on tank).
__________________________________________________

TEAM ALFALFA
www.apexassassins.com
cbinker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 08:03 AM   #13
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky nrk View Post
The reason I ask is that if the front tire still has grip then there are things we can to/discuss/whatever to increase the amount of braking force until you run out of tire, if your running out of tire then we can also talk ways that may allow you to maximize the available grip you have.
I think that is what he is asking. We have already identified one mod that could be affecting rear shock travel. It's still inconclusive if that is all or part of the reason the bike tends to lift.

Either way, I don't see any harm in tossing in comments about the skills part if ya want.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old April 1st, 2015, 08:26 AM   #14
sharky nrk
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
 
sharky nrk's Avatar
 
Name: Neil
Location: Hutto, TX
Join Date: Feb 2009

Motorcycle(s): '07 ZX6R, '08 Versys, '09 250R Track, '93 F2/F3 Track

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
I think that is what he is asking. We have already identified one mod that could be affecting rear shock travel. It's still inconclusive if that is all or part of the reason the bike tends to lift.

Either way, I don't see any harm in tossing in comments about the skills part if ya want.
I re-reread the OP and yeah, what I understood the third time () was not that he necessarily was running out of braking power but that the tail was coming up and that is uncomfortable/not what is wanted.

What you have to do to keep the rear tire on the ground is maximize the bikes/rider combination forces pushing the rear tire towards the ground and reduce weight transfer to the front (without reducing front tire grip to a detrimental amount).

Bike things that keep the rear tire in contact with the ground:

wheelbase (longer is harder to lift rear)
rear shock/swingarm/linkage extension/droop (more rebound/more travel/link rate change adjustment)
front fork compression (less compression harder to lift rear)
weight distribution (more weight on rear higher front/lower rear)
ride height (lower harder to lift)
braking setup changes (brake force to lever pressure/friction compound ratio)

Rider things that keep the rear on the ground:

rider weight shifted backwards and lower on the bike braking
engine braking (I have this under rider as it would be manipulation with the clutch and throttle on this bike)
smoother/longer brake transition (overall net braking stays same, less initial hit)

Now I listed a bunch of stuff there, and the kicker is of course that the vast majority of the bike stuff has complications that effect other aspects of the bikes performance outside of outright braking. The rider stuff can pretty much be done at a degree to your liking without affecting the bike nearly as much.

I say start with modifying your weight transfer on the bike by BP and integrate your braking profile changes to suit.
__________________________________________________
Keep it rubber side down and enjoy the ride
Get healthy - Get Fit - Change Your Life
Click Here Or PM Me To Find More - Advocare
sharky nrk is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hard Braking Turned Into a Tank Slapper Navigator 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 25 September 24th, 2015 11:54 AM
[kropotkin thinks...] - Bridgestone Press Release - Shinji Aoki On Hard Braking At Mo Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 October 14th, 2014 07:30 AM
[kropotkin thinks...] - 2014 Motegi Friday Round Up: Hard Braking Hondas, Rabat's Imp Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 October 10th, 2014 03:40 PM
[crash.net - MotoGP] - Crutchlow: Motegi hard braking good for me Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 October 7th, 2014 08:40 PM
[crash.net - MotoGP] - Hayden: Hard braking should suit our bike Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 May 15th, 2012 11:30 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.