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Old October 13th, 2019, 04:16 PM   #1
jcarbelbide
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Ninja 250 Problems Galore

Hi Ninjette! First time posting here. I have a problem with my Ninja that I can't solve.

For the past 3 months or so, I've been trying to get my Ninja 250 running again, but I'm running into a lot of issues. I'm a complete noob when it comes to this. This was my first bike, and my first real project I've worked on. It started with what seemed to be a carb issue. I let the bike sit for about a month, and it started having trouble with its idle revs. The idle revs would swing ± 1500 rpm, so I had to leave it at high RPMs or it would stall. It would also get stuck at high RPMs when I gave it throttle, and would eventually come back down slowly. The throttle cable was working properly. So I decided to try cleaning the jets. That didn't do anything. I then tried rebuilding the carbs. However, now the bike won't even start. I ordered another carb off of ebay to try, but I accidentally cracked it being too rough with a stripped screw. I'm not sure if the crack matters too much so I tried it anyway, but same problem as my original carb.

At this point, when I try to start the bike, I can hear it trying to start, but it doesn't fully start. I hear the electrical sounds, and I hear a small thump. I put my hand over the exhaust and I can feel stuff coming out. I don't really know what I could have messed up so bad that it won't even start. Could it be the floats? I had to bend the tabs to get the height correct but I might have messed that up.

Any ideas about what I can try? At this point, I might just take it to the mechanic, but I don't really want to give up either. Thanks!
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Old October 13th, 2019, 05:41 PM   #2
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Hi and welcome to Ninjette!

Can you fill us in on your bike’s previous maintenance and usage pattern before you let it sit for month?

What is total mileage?
Was it ridden daily?
Had valve-adjustment on schedule?
Any crashes or damage?

There are very few mechanics that know how to work on carbs and even fewer that knows how to do proper cleaning and refurb job. Do search here for “clean carbs ducatiman” to see threads with photos on what needs to be done.
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Old October 13th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #3
jcarbelbide
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Thanks for your reply. I bought the bike a little over a year ago. It had around 200 miles when I bought it (not a typo). The bike sat forever, and the previous owner bought it at an auction, cleaned it up, and sold it to me. He seemed to know what he was doing, as he had like 15 bikes in his garage he was working on, and did that as a side hustle. I don't know what he did to it, besides cleaning the carbs. I then let it sit for a month and when I tried to start it again, it was having the idling issue. I have no idea if he adjusted the valves. It has about 1000 miles now. I didn't ride it daily. It was about once a week, but now it never gets ridden since it doesn't start and has been having issues. No crashes or damage as far as I can tell.

Actually now that you mention it, I did fall over on it doing a u-turn when I was first learning. Maybe like a 5mph crash. Bike flew out from under me and broke a blinker. After that I recall that the next time I used it, I started noticing it acting a little weird, but nothing like it is now. I can't recall how weird it was acting. Can a small crash like that cause issues like the ones I described?

I've been reading about ducatiman actually, and I'm really impressed with what he does. I wish I found this forum before I started trying to fix all of this myself. Would have saved a lot of time and money. My first priority now is just to get the bike to start again. I have no idea what I did to make it not be able to start.
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Old October 14th, 2019, 06:58 AM   #4
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First thing to look at with a cycle with low miles that has been sitting is the gas and gas tank.

Did you completely drain the tank and look at the condition of the inside? Rust will plug up the screens and filters, so make sure the tank is in good condition and the gas is fresh. Use 87 without ethanol if it's available in your area.

Check the small fuel filter on the inside of the fuel line where it connects to the carb. You want it there, but it needs to be clean and in good condition.

The air filter needs to be clean and in good condition also. Be very careful not to over-oil a foam filter after cleaning.

Make sure the petcock is flowing fuel when a vacuum is applied, and not flowing when it's not.

Next is the carbs. Chances are they need a complete and thorough overhaul - not just some spraying with carb cleaner. That's where ducatiman comes in. It's worth investing some money in your Ninja due to the low miles if the rest of it is in good condition.

There's also an oil/filter change, coolant change, brake fluid change, chain adjustment and lube, and other maintenance items that need to be checked to make sure it's road worthy.

No matter how many miles are on them, or how good the tread is, tires need to be replaced after 5 years. Even though they may look good (chances are there are small cracks in the rubber), tires dry out and lose traction from age.

This page has a lot of Ninja-specific info that may help you - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Ninja250_Howto
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Old October 14th, 2019, 09:17 AM   #5
jcarbelbide
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I emptied the gas tank and put in fresh fuel, though the fuel is probably about a month old now. I did put fuel stabilizer in it. I just used 87 gas from a nearby gas station that I would put in my car. Do you think it's worth replacing that? Would that stop it from starting?

I did check to make sure that there was gas coming out of the tank, but all I did was pull the tube going to the carb and check for gas. Gas came out, but it wasn't flowing from the petcock when I took out the tube. What's the best way to check if it flows with a vacuum? I'm not sure how to check for proper flow. Whats the best way to look at the condition of the inside? Flashlight from the top?

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say the small fuel filter on the inside of the fuel line where it connects to the carb. I do have what looks like a filter on my DR650 but all I have on my ninja are two tubes that connect directly to the carb. I have attached a picture below.

I've never really touched the air filter, but it did seem to be intact and didn't seem dirty. I'll look into what it should look like.

I recently replaced the tires, so they're pretty new.

In terms of the carbs, I did a rebuild, and I think I probably messed up the floats. I bent the tabs so the floats met the 17mm requirement, but they felt different from before. They felt a lot lighter. I want to get the bike running again before sending my carbs to be overhauled. I read in another post that they were having similar problems to me, and a valve adjustment helped to get rid of the idling problem I was having before the bike stopped starting.


Grateful for all of the help. Thanks so much!

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Old October 14th, 2019, 10:09 AM   #6
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So did you test-ride bike before purchase? Or at least see it start and warm-up fully?

What is rust-condition of tank? Open up cap and shine flashlight in and look at bottom and sides of tank. Or better yet, post photo.

There is tiny inline filter inside fuel-hose just before carbs. It may be inside end of hose or it may be sitting in fuel-inlet pipe at carbs. It can get clogged with rust and prevent petrol flow.



Might also be good idea to remove petclock and check its filters on its inlet as well.

To test petcock's flow:

1. unplug fuel-hose from carbs and aim into cup

2. unplug smaller vacuum hose from petcock (2nd-one going inside towards carbs)

3. plug in spare vacuum hose to petcock's vacuum diaphragm port, 1-2 feet long should do

4. turn petcock to ON

5. apply vacuum to petcock's vacuum diaphragm port. Use vacuum gauge/tester or syringe. Some people say suck on hose gently (dangerous if diaphragm is torn, you may get petrol in mouth).

6. measure how much petrol flows out in 30-seconds when flow starts
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Old October 14th, 2019, 11:11 AM   #7
jcarbelbide
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I did test ride. I got the bike over a year ago at this point. The bike seemed to run fine when I got it. It started up with no issues and was not having the issues I've been seeing. I kept thinking it was a carb issue because a mechanic that looked at it said it was the carb, and it seemed to get a little better when I would ride it more frequently.

I'll provide a picture of the tank when I can.

Thanks for the picture of the filter. Never even knew, but I'll check for it. And thank you for all of the suggestions to check the petcock. I won't be able to do that until this weekend, but I will post back when I do.
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Old October 14th, 2019, 11:18 PM   #8
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It could very well be petcock. Do test of petcock as outlined above to verify it’s delivering adequate fuel-volume to carbs.

Also make note of whether vacuum is held by petcock. That is, once you apply vacuum, it flows petrol continuously, or if you have to keep applying more and more vacuum to keep flow going.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; October 15th, 2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2019, 09:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarbelbide View Post
Hi Ninjette! First time posting here. I have a problem with my Ninja that I can't solve.

For the past 3 months or so, I've been trying to get my Ninja 250 running again, but I'm running into a lot of issues. I'm a complete noob when it comes to this. This was my first bike, and my first real project I've worked on. It started with what seemed to be a carb issue. I let the bike sit for about a month, and it started having trouble with its idle revs. The idle revs would swing ± 1500 rpm, so I had to leave it at high RPMs or it would stall. It would also get stuck at high RPMs when I gave it throttle, and would eventually come back down slowly. The throttle cable was working properly. So I decided to try cleaning the jets. That didn't do anything. I then tried rebuilding the carbs. However, now the bike won't even start. I ordered another carb off of ebay to try, but I accidentally cracked it being too rough with a stripped screw. I'm not sure if the crack matters too much so I tried it anyway, but same problem as my original carb.

At this point, when I try to start the bike, I can hear it trying to start, but it doesn't fully start. I hear the electrical sounds, and I hear a small thump. I put my hand over the exhaust and I can feel stuff coming out. I don't really know what I could have messed up so bad that it won't even start. Could it be the floats? I had to bend the tabs to get the height correct but I might have messed that up.

Any ideas about what I can try? At this point, I might just take it to the mechanic, but I don't really want to give up either. Thanks!
For what it's worth, my bike tends to hunt for a stable idle immediately after startup (especially if its a cold day). Immediately after a cold start, I've seen the tach surge as high as 3500. For that reason, I usually stand by and reduce the choke until it stabilizes, which usually between 1200 and 1500 rpm. If I let it sit there for about 5 minutes, I can usually kill the choke and ride off without issue.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 10:25 PM   #10
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Ever figure out the problem to this? Sounds very similar problems with what I am currently going through!
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Old November 18th, 2019, 12:25 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by RiderDonnie View Post
Ever figure out the problem to this? Sounds very similar problems with what I am currently going through!
It is possible that my bike is running a tad lean but I expect it has more to do with the cold weather than anything else.

Obviously, carb is responsible for the mixing of air and fuel; however, unlike the engine, it doesn't generate significant thermal energy on its own. When the gaskets, diaphragms, and other rubber components are subjected to cold temperatures, they stiffen considerably. Any change in the behavior in any of these components can have a noticeable effect on the performance of the bike as it would affect the air/fuel mixture, at least during startup when the engine hasn't had time to sufficiently warm the carb.

My suggestion is that if you have to start the bike at or below 40*F, give it half-choke before hitting the starter. It may rev like a banshee at first (mine does) but then back off the choke so that the bike's tach stays somewhere between 2000 to 3000 rpm. Let it sit there for a minimum of five minutes. At this point, make sure that you reduce the choke so that your engine settles near its normal idle rpm before riding off. If you kill the choke while you're riding and the engine starts bogging down, stop somewhere and reapply some of the choke. This nearly happened to me once but the temperature was around 15*F at the time (I have winter gear ).
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Old January 14th, 2020, 05:48 PM   #12
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Hey all. Really sorry for the radio silence. Work got really busy towards the end of the year and I haven't had a chance to touch the bike until last weekend. I have read everyone's replies. Thank you so much for all of the help and advice. I wanted to try troubleshooting from the ground up, so I don't miss something obvious, and just to rule out some more stuff. Here is the stuff I tried last weekend:

1. I was suggested to look at the petcock. This is what I have done for it so far to check that: I cranked the engine with the tank connected to the carb. When I disconnect the hose from the tank, fuel falls out, so I'm guessing that is working. I'm not sure if that is an adequate enough check. I didn't check for a fuel filter. I will check this weekend, but I don't think I remember seeing one on the tank side at least. The carb side hose is on there pretty good, and I haven't really tried to take it off and check yet. I am planning on working on the bike a bit more this weekend. The only think I'm not sure I remember seeing is if gas was actually in the floats of the carb after cranking. I have to double check this weekend.

2. I checked the compression of the engine. I removed one of the spark plugs and put my palm over the hole. I felt pressure on my hand. I'm no expert (at all), so I don't know if there was enough, but I think that part is probably fine.

3. Checked the spark by grounding the electrode of the spark plug to my engine case. Again, no expert, but there was a spark, and the next point (#4) makes me believe the spark is fine.

4. With the tank disconnected to the carb, I opened the air box and sprayed engine starter into it. Closed the air box and cranked the engine. The engine started for a few seconds until the starter fumes ran out, and then would stall. I tried this many times, and the engine started every time with starter fluid. I then connected the fuel to the carb and tied again with starter fluid. Engine started up, but died after the starter fluid ran out. I disconnected the fuel line from the tank, and some fuel came out of the hose, so I think the carb is getting fuel. I tried with the choke on with the same results. I think I also tried with the tank set to reserve and same thing happened.

5. I turned the pilot jets in 1 turn, putting it at 1.5 turns. I was thinking that maybe the bike was running too lean and wasn't starting. That didn't change anything. I had it at 2.5 turns before (1 turn = 360 deg turn)

Another important piece of information I'll repeat: Before the bike stopped working, I rebuilt the carb. I replaced all of the gaskets and jets and also redid the floats. I think I might have messed up the floats. I set the float height to 17mm, but to be honest, I probably messed this part up somehow. The floats seem less springy than before. Not sure if thats an issue. Could this be causing the bike to not start?

So in summary, the bike starts with engine starter, but doesn't stay running when the fumes run out. It doesn't run with the tank connected. I'll try again this weekend with the choke on and the fuel set to reserve. Might be worth adding more fuel to the tank, as I don't have much in the tank, but I'm expecting to see the same results. Because of what I'm seeing, with my limited knowledge of how bikes work, I'm guessing it's a carb mixing issue, where gas and air aren't mixing right in the carb. I have no really done anything to check the air intake (not really sure what to look for). I'm thinking about reaching out to ducatiman for a carb overhaul. Hopefully that will help the bike run, but I would hate to get it back and the bike still doesn't run. I have a feeling theres some other issue going on, but I don't know what it is.

I know it's been a while since I posted, but I really appreciate any and all help I can get. Thanks!
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Old January 15th, 2020, 09:25 PM   #13
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You need to be much more thorough, precise and meticulous with your troubleshooting. There’s a lot of data (numbers) missing that would’ve made finding your issues much easier.

At this point, it would be much, much faster and cheaper to send your carbs and petcock to ducatiman for refurb and restoration. I assure you when they come back, your bike will run perfectly, like 1st day it rode off showroom floor!

In meantime, you should send bike out to competent shop to have valve-clearances measured and adjusted if necessary.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; January 15th, 2020 at 11:06 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2020, 09:28 AM   #14
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Thanks so much for reading, Danno. Noted, you're right, I should have taken more data and been more meticulous about what I did. I was planning on doing the petcock test this coming weekend (measuring how much gas flowed), but I guess at this point I may just send that along with the carb to ducatiman. I'll reach out to him.
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Old January 16th, 2020, 10:38 PM   #15
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This might be just an oversight but you do realize that the fuel switch is in the off position correct?
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Old January 16th, 2020, 10:41 PM   #16
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Hey, thanks for checking. Yes, in that picture I have it in the off position, but when I try to start it, I turn it to the on position.

Also, update for everyone: I’ve got in tough with Ducatiman and I’ll be shipping my carbs and petcock to him this weekend. I’ll provide an update when I get them back and try it on the bike.
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Old January 24th, 2020, 05:01 PM   #17
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Sent my carbs and petcock in to Ducatiman after hearing a lot of great things about him. He's the man! We're really lucky to have someone like him in our community.

I haven't got the carbs and petcock back yet, but he sent me pictures and a long list of things he did to them. He is extremely thorough and helpful. Can't beat his service, or his price. Did not expect this level of service even after reading all of the great things about him.

Thanks Ducatiman!
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Old January 24th, 2020, 05:31 PM   #18
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thank you for kind words. From Austin just for you.......
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Old January 25th, 2020, 03:20 PM   #19
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I just dropped 'em at Post Office today Saturday....USPS shows expected delivery Monday. WOW!
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Old February 10th, 2020, 02:40 PM   #20
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Hey all, another update!

First, thank you so much to ducatiman for all of your help so far! The carbs came back immaculate, and he even restored the petcock for me free of charge (it needed some new filters). He put a lot of time into making my carbs and petcock perfect, and it really shows in how they run. Again, can't recommend him enough to anyone reading this.

So I stuck the carbs and petcock back into the bike, and have been going back and forth with ducatiman about getting the correct pilot jet settings. He's been incredibly helpful. I think I have a decent enough setting now. The bike starts right up, and rides amazing. I don't remember the bike being so much fun to ride. HOWEVER, I am still having some weird idling issues.

Here's a list of stuff I've done:
Carb clean by ducatiman
Petcock rebuild by ducatiman
Spark plugs changed
Air filter will be cleaned next week (already looked clean enough but will do this just to be sure)
Installed fuel filter inline with tank and carb
Set the throttle cable freeplay
Tuned pilot screw to 3.5 turns per wiki method (turn out until rpms stop hanging)

Here's what I'm seeing:
Prop the bike up on the center stand. Choke on, petcock on. Turn bike on. Starts on the first or second crank. After a minute or so, I turn off the choke. I monitor the idle. I let the bike warm up so the temp meter showed almost halfway. When I blip the throttle, it would sometimes hang, sometimes act rich. Messing with the idle didn’t fix much. I tried going for a ride, and the problems pretty much went away really quick. For some reason going on a pretty short ride seemed to fix everything. I think the next time it starts up, the same sequence of events will probably happen.

However, one more thing, I can't get the idle to go below 2k rpm, even with the idle screw all the way back. I'm sure that the throttle cables are set correctly. Bike might be running too rich, so I'll try turning the pilot screw back in a little. Maybe at 3.25 turns. At 2.5, it was definitely hanging a lot.

I was suggested to go have my valves checked by Danno. I would like to do this myself instead of taking it to a shop. My question though is how necessary to you guys think it is? Are my symptoms indicative of valves out of adjustment? Or do I just need to more finely tune the pilot screw? My bike is only at around 1200 miles, and I think the recommended check interval is 7500. It is a 2004 Ninja 250. One possibly important piece of information: I didn't really follow break in procedure, didn't know about it. Got the bike around 200 miles. Rode it on city probably for another 100-200. I took about 4 hour long trips on the highway where I was at full throttle the entire time. Otherwise, it was city riding. I'm not sure if that can accelerate valve clearances getting off that much. Call me an idiot, it's okay, I already know that.

Again, thanks so much to everyone for taking the time to help me.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 10:49 AM   #21
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Definitely check valve-clearances. One or two valves being off can cause those symptoms you're having.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 10:55 AM   #22
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Hi Danno, thanks for your response. I checked and adjusted the valves a couple weeks ago and every single one was super tight. I put them into spec (exhaust and intake different specs). Put them towards the looser end of the spec. I believe .005 for intake and .006 for exhaust. It was pretty simply to do and I enjoyed it overall.

However, problems still persist. I honestly don’t know if it even did anything for me. I’m starting to think it’s just in my head. When the bike warms up it idles alright. But it takes a while to get to that point. Also needs to be ridden a bit before idling right.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 02:35 PM   #23
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Does it cold idle OK with choke?

I found mine needs about 2-3 min on choke. I woudn't back it off completely, just lower choke to keep revs between 2500-3000rpms. Then ride off after getting my gear on and turn off choke only when underway about 2-3 miles down road.

Over winter in S.F. Bay Area, it got down into low-30s/high-20s couple of times. I wouldn't even lower choke before taking off. Take off with full-choke and turn it off gradually as engine heated up. Took 5-7 minutes.

I need to get ThermoBob thermostat-housing to help warm-up faster and maintain more consistent operating temperatures.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 03:18 PM   #24
memphisninja
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Check your intake boots. Make sure the clamps on the cylinder head intake side and the carburetor clamp is as tight as possible, also inspect for any damage... You can get a can of starter fluid or fuel in a spray bottle and spray the intake boots while it runs.. If it raises the idle, then that is your problem...
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Old March 14th, 2020, 04:41 PM   #25
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Good idea to look for intake-leak. Idle @ 2000rpm even with idle-screw all way out is sure sign engine is sucking in extra air somewhere.

Someone one posted they had one intake-boot with rip in it that caused extra air to be sucked in and high idle.

Another person posted recently that installing rubber-boot backwards caused them some issues as well. It's labeled "carb" on one end, that one should face towards carbs.
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Old March 19th, 2020, 12:13 AM   #26
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Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions. I know I put the carb boots in the right way, and I don’t find any leaks anywhere. I sprayed starter fluid all around the carb and got no changing idle.

I remember it idling well with the choke while it is cold. Idle doesn’t move. I don’t remember if reviving it while it’s cold with choke screws up the idle. I really should write this down, I have a terrible memory. Danno, the way your bike runs kind of sounds like mine, which gives me some hope. It’s been raining a lot here in the Bay Area and been pretty cold so I haven’t got a chance to run it recently. Plus with the whole COVID-19 stuff going on, don’t think I’ll even see my bike for another month since I leave it at my parents house. Speaking of, hope y’all are healthy. Stay safe.
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Old March 19th, 2020, 01:42 PM   #27
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Make sure the throttle cables are adjusted right, with a little slack between the push-pull cables. If adjusted too tight it will hang when released.
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Old March 19th, 2020, 01:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z1R rider View Post
Make sure the throttle cables are adjusted right, with a little slack between the push-pull cables. If adjusted too tight it will hang when released.
Hey, thanks for the response. Checked the throttle cables as well. They are set up correctly, and the throttle mechanism on the carb returns fine when the throttle grip is released. I’m thinking I just have a very, very cold blooded ninja.
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