2002 GSXR caliper mounted

[old3]

[Motofool]

[Alex]

Looks great.

[CZroe]

The mount. Who made it? TELL US!

[old3]

I had upgraded to SS line and EBC "HH" pads but was still wanting more. That had good initial bite but seemed to drift off in long stops, like it was loosing feel and bite.

So, 2002 GSXR caliper and EBC "HH" pads with my buddy's fabbed aluminum bracket are bolted up. The result, another step closer to what I want. It is as far a gap from my ss line and pads in the stock caiper as that was from stock. I can leave it and enjoy it as it is with no issue, but I'm thinking a new 14mm master ($40 on ebay) will put it in the premium category in feel and power.



My buddy is going to test the feasibility of building these brackets in steel next week to offer them for sale. They should fit the 300s and at least 250 back to 08. Stay tuned if you might be interested, and I'll help him post up in the vendors section if it works out to be affordable.

My caliper cost $25 shipped on Ebay, Pads were $35 and the SS line $50.

[old3]

Originally Posted by CZroe

The mount. Who made it? TELL US!

My buddy Pete! Master machinist extraordinare!

That is prototype #1.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by old3

My buddy Pete! Master machinist extraordinare!

That is prototype #1.

And he plans to make more, you say? Good man.

Our appetites are insatiable though. Crack that whip and get him to make us some more good stuff.

I'll take a couple sets of valve emulators and lowered handlebar risers, plzkthx.

[old3]

My son (2012 Ninja 250 owner with stock brakes, MX racer since he was 5) took it out up & down the street to feel the brake. He really got it good & hot, 60 MPH to dead stop in aggressive braking about a dozen times. I guess he really finished off seating the pads cause it is now a real 1 finger brake. I managed a nice 2' front skid while testing a new tune. Very controlled, felt it, released it and right on down the road. Frigid tires, cold road, salt brine is down for a new storm blowing in...Do not try this at home!

I'm thinking the 1/2" or 13mm stock master might be spot on now. I'm not saying I won't try the 14mm, but if these pads get any better as they wear in, I probably won't. My other set of HH EBC pads just kept getting better & better over 150-200 miles. These have under 35 miles in them.

[sharky nrk]

Can he make them in aluminum instead of steel for sale? Also can't really tell but it looks like you may not be using all of the swept area of the pad based on the picture. Could be the angle of the pic though.

[old3]

It is using it all and then some, it ate into the black painted inner circle by a tiny bit. I'll ask him but I think milling it from aluminum like mine would be really pricey.

[csmith12]

[Rassie]

If you want even more get a Hayabusa or 1200 Bandit 6 piston front caliper. Like these on this bike.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by old3

It is using it all and then some, it ate into the black painted inner circle by a tiny bit. I'll ask him but I think milling it from aluminum like mine would be really pricey.

Aluminum would be a better choice. A lot of people who want to upgrade their front brakes will be taking them to the track. Lighter = better. Aluminum isn't crazy expensive. If I was keeping my bike, I'd want AL.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, but AL also fatigues over time with repeated cyclic loading. Steel doesn't, as long as the load applied is less than a certain amount (specific to the type/strengthening process, etc) each cycle.

For track, Al would be worth it. For a street vehicle, steel would be just fine. Plus it's cheaper Besides, the difference in weight is a few ounces right? I can vary my weight by more than that just by using the restroom. I call that insignificant.

[CThunder-blue]

Not if we're talking T6061. Every big brake manufacturing kit such as AP, Brembo, and Stillen all use AL adapter brackets. I have never heard of any story that an AL bracket failed due to heat or any other reason. The other thing to consider is corrosion. You have 2 types that you have to deal with if you use steel brackets.

1. Obviously, oxidation. Even if you powder coat (driving up the cost), the threads still have to be exposed.
2. Galvanic Response. Since your aluminum brake calipers are in constant contact with with your steel bracket, you'll eventually get rust spots on the steel. You can get away with powder coat, but there goes your cost savings that you were looking for.

[choneofakind]

From my materials science class, I was taught that all Aluminum will fail after a certain number of cycles. It may be millions of cycles, but it will fail eventually. It's just a property of Aluminum.

Quick reference here on T6061: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy
It says the cyclic loading limit is around 500,000,000 cycles. Obviously that's so high that using it on a bike will not be an issue, basically because it has an infinite (in comparison to the bike) life-span. But that doesn't mean that T6061 is immune to failure from cyclic loading.

The oxidation is important. You could use stainless, but I guess you're right. Aluminum is the better option.

[CThunder-blue]

Yeah, SS is much more expensive than AL.

[choneofakind]

This is still a cool install old3

After college, I've got my mind on a 300 and a new 636. I like the idea of fantastic brakes on the 300.

[old3]

I got this today with a GSXR wheel for my fork swap. 6 piston Hyabusa caliper!

It bolted right up to my 4 piston Tokico adapter. Feel is OK, I could use more piston in my master now. Stock 13mm just barely cuts it. Lever travel is a lil longer and I really need 3 fingers where I used to need 1 or two. If I use 2 fingers my lever hits my other fingers on max braking.

Otherwise it really rocks. I was doing 45 degree stoppies and it is only 24f degrees here!

[old3]

The 2002 GSXR 600 4 piston it replaced.

[choneofakind]

So is there any science or reasoning here when you choose a master/caliper combo or is this all just flying blind?

I don't know much about matching pistons and calipers and whatnot. Never felt unhappy with my current braking setup.

[old3]

There is a ratio that is ideal for good power and good feel, it depends on the total area of the caliper pistons in relation to the master. IMO the stock master is too big in piston size for the caliper's 2 pistons. I can confirm that as the 4 piston caliper and the stock 13mm master worked beautifully together.

I'm looking at a 14mm master right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-14MM-FRO...6c3027&vxp=mtr

And a Ninja 650 master is the same size too... Ebay to the rescue! I just got one for $47 bucks shipped in like new condition, includes an adjustable lever OEM. So, a double upgrade!

I'm betting that will restore some power I've lost in the balance and still give me good feel thru the lever. The 13mm is just a touch too small. Useable but can be much better.

If you have too much master cylinder piston size for your caliper, you get a wooden feel at the lever. You don't get great feedback from the pistons/pads in the caliper. The stock brake suffers this imbalance. I bet a 12mm master would give much better feel on the front brake. If the front caliper wasn't so marginal I'd have gone that route.

[choneofakind]

Ah, so you get the caliper you want with the right number of pistons/features that you want, then go with the size of MC to get the feel that you want. That makes more sense to me.

[old3]

Yep. I'm juggling used parts, or at least slightly used but I should be close with the Ninja 650 master. It usually pushes 4 bigger pistons on a pair of calipers, (2 each). If it is too big I overshot and need the slightly smaller 14mm. I think it will be right there with good feel and one finger power.

[sharky nrk]

Still kinda shocks me that no one makes an adapter bracket to let you fit some older non radial mount tokicos or nissins from early 2000s middleweights.

It could be because the racing orgs make you keep stock brakes? Or because with decent pads and lines the stockers are tolerable? I know non-opposed sliding pin type calipers put some slop and inconsistency in the brakes. Maybe Blair from SV Racing or another smaller vender could fab some of these up in aluminum?

[old3]

I won't be needing one, but I just emaild Blair to ask him. These Tokicos are everywhere so I'd suggest that 4 piston as a good candidate with the stock rotor and master. I'll post up his reply or start a new thread.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Thanks for going through all of the hard work @old3 Curious to know what you end up using and you're feedback so I can just copy it. Keep up the good work!.

[old3]

It isn't hard work, I enjoy this stuff. I hope it is helpful to others. If Blair builds the brackets the upgrade is a no brainer. The 4 piston cal with HH pads, SS hose and everything else stock was a remarkably better front brake.

[old3]

You guys are in luck. Blair wants to build copies off my brake caliper bracket! I'm shipping him my bracket tomorrow and will be Ninjaless till it returns. Thankfully it is going to snow tomorrow and be sub artic cold here for the week.

I'll start a new thread when he has the parts ready to order/preorder. I expect his bracket to be trimmed down and prettier than mine.

Start shopping ebay and scrappers for right side Tokico calipers!

[TnNinjaGirl]

Not to take this too off topic but the 300 has the same forks as the newgen 250, correct? Are the caliper mounting brackets on the pregen the same?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by old3

If you have too much master cylinder piston size for your caliper, you get a wooden feel at the lever. You don't get great feedback from the pistons/pads in the caliper.............The 4 piston cal with HH pads, SS hose and everything else stock was a remarkably better front brake.

In your experience, what the higher number of pistons improve?

As I see it, more pistons with same pump means each squeeze of the lever can only pump so much fluid down and can only move four pistons half the distance of what it moved two pistons of similar diameter.

I have zero intention of critizizing your work, ........I'm just curious about what these changes do.

[old3]

Some hydro dynamics engineer will stumble in and explain it better than I but it comes down to piston surface area. The 4 piston caliper had two much larger pistons and two slightly smaller than the others. The 6 piston calipers have much smaller pistons. Overall the smaller pistons move probably just a tad bit less per lever movement than the 4 piston.

There is a math equation somewhere that would give you the exact ratio but I don't have it!

Bottom line, either will give you braking power that exceeds the stock 2 piston sliding calipers by leaps and bounds. I wouldn't have seeked out a 6 piston but it was basically given to me in a deal with a GSXR wheel.


I may have jumped the gun by buying the Ninja 650 master. I took her out for a good romp pre winter storm and the braking is actually really good. I wasn't crushing my fingers anymore, I'm guessing the pads are really broken in now. It is also about 12f higher temps today so the tire might have more bite.

I'll test the 650 master anyway. I could use the adjustable lever and I bet it will be a bit better again than the stock master still. But, it works far and away much better than the stock caliper regardless.

[sharky nrk]

^^ you want to maintain a reasonable ratio on the area of the m/c to the caliper pistons for the right amount of pressure from the lever to caliper. To just throw on the caliper without addressing the master would not be the best idea IMHO, however if the ratio happens to be close (and it may seeing as how the master in a 600 pushes fluid for both calipers and now you only need one) or you put the right uprated unit on; then the opposed piston design of the replacement caliper SHOULD offer better feel and modulation than a single sided slider due to less flex in the caliper chassis and the movement of "more smaller pistons" instead of "less larger pistons"

since the stock brakes can lock the front tire at will, its not about total stopping power, but rather feel, modulation, and control.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

In your experience, what the higher number of pistons improve?

As I see it, more pistons with same pump means each squeeze of the lever can only pump so much fluid down and can only move four pistons half the distance of what it moved two pistons of similar diameter.

I have zero intention of critizizing your work, ........I'm just curious about what these changes do.

Here is a chart from a vintage brake site that shows the relationship you are referencing, and you are to a degree right about that statement. Its an area ratio that is important. I bet the pistons in the replacement caliper are smaller than the sliding stocker.

[old3]

Actually I think the 300 and 250 simply start life with a far too big master cylinder piston, and that is a big part of why the brakes feel so crappy. Thankfully that leaves room for bigger piston area in the calipers.

I'm a big sumoto rider and I am a certified brake whore. My last street bike was a KTM SMR950 with twin radial Brembos and radial master, but it paled in comparision to my Husky SMR450 brakes.

The stock master and either 4 or 6 piston Tokico is a huge step in the right direction, stock the master/caliper ratio is way off. I almost tried a 11mm master off my MX bike but the cal bracket came to be first.

[Motofool]

Thank you both !!!

[old3]

I just got another note from Blair. He plans to offer both a Tokico and Nissan 4 pot caliper brackets for the 08-14 Ninjettes!

More choices!

He also said he would be make it a really nice aesthetic piece too. I know mine looks a bit like a brick!

[mania]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Still kinda shocks me that no one makes an adapter bracket to let you fit some older non radial mount tokicos or nissins from early 2000s middleweights.

It could be because the racing orgs make you keep stock brakes? Or because with decent pads and lines the stockers are tolerable? I know non-opposed sliding pin type calipers put some slop and inconsistency in the brakes. Maybe Blair from SV Racing or another smaller vender could fab some of these up in aluminum?

RSV Racing makes a few different ones here for front & rear.
This seller ( Jiester ) is in Indonesia I used his pics as they had them all on their FB
But RSV the manufacturer is in Thailand.

[old3]

Rare as hen's teeth in the USA. Nice looking parts!

[mania]

Originally Posted by old3

Rare as hen's teeth in the USA. Nice looking parts!

Yes ...One thing I notice is smaller displacement bikes get a lot of attention
in Asia for aftermarket parts etc.

I guess because large bikes are so expensive here due to import taxes & the majority ride smaller displacement.