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Old July 13th, 2018, 04:32 AM   #1
BloodFX
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El250

Hi, can anyone tell me if the needle shimming works the same on Kawasaki eliminator 250's as it does on ninja 250's please?
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Old July 13th, 2018, 10:25 AM   #2
DannoXYZ
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MOTM - Nov '17
Hi and Welcome!

Yup, same adjustments work same way. Here's a good tuning guide.

http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tunin...m_engines.html
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Old July 13th, 2018, 11:33 AM   #3
BloodFX
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It was a just a reference question related to this: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9465

as I also have a lean spot down low and at 6k to maybe 9k (guess) my bike doesn't have a rev counter.

Thanks for the reply anyway.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 12:35 PM   #4
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MOTM - Nov '17
Here's more related thread with someone installing Ninja 250 carbs on EL250.
https://forums.ninja250.org/posting....&t=78122&tro=1

Tough to diagnose these conditions without instrumentation and datalogging. While you can do trial and error and add fuel to see if it improves. And if it doesn't that means it already has too much fuel and you adjust in opposite direction and it does get better (this was way carb-tuning was done back in '60s).

However, what usually happens is you actually have both lean AND rich conditions at same time. Some areas of operation are lean while others are rich. You can do trial and error and some areas improve while others gets worse. Overall net result is you just move the RPM X throttle-position spot where the stumbling occurs.

The only way I've gotten these things to work cleanly across all RPM ranges and throttle-openings is to do real-time datalogging using wideband O2-sensor recording RPM, throttle-position (via TPS), and AFR in 100-rpm increments. This shows typical low-end lean condition and high-end richness. However due to crude nature of just 3-adjustments, the overlaps aren't smooth making it difficult to add fuel in one spot yet remove it within 1000rpms.

Ultimate solution after graphing and examining all data is to custom-grind my own needles on mini-lathe. Add a concave mid-section instead of linear to richen up mid-range, yet leave the end fat to prevent too much fuel up top. Combined with smaller main-jets and it's finally done!!! Until the temperature or humidity changes and then it's time to pull them again!

All this of course can be done in 5-minutes with several clicks of mouse with EFI.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 12:39 PM   #5
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MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post
as I also have a lean spot down low and at 6k to maybe 9k (guess) my bike doesn't have a rev counter.
Try removing air-box cover and filter and see what happens to stumbling/surging.
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Old July 16th, 2018, 02:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Try removing air-box cover and filter and see what happens to stumbling/surging.
I did what you said and it has that horrible hollow lean sound and hesitates to rev from idle.
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Old July 16th, 2018, 01:01 PM   #7
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MOTM - Nov '17
Before doing any adjustments, I suggest getting to a common baseline. That is, restore your carbs to brand new condition.

Case in point, last fall I had Gordon (ducatiman) do complete refurb job on my 2008 street-bike's carbs. They came back in sparkling clean lickable brand-new factory fresh condition. Bike ran perfectly like brand-new bike off showroom floor. Needed minimal time on choke to warm-up and ran flawlessly with no hiccups or stumbles.

Then I sold bike in Dec. to guy giving himself Festivus present. He had bigger-plans than his schedule allowed I guess. And bike sat for 6-months and I bought it back last month. Figured I'd take it for weekend ride up Mt. Tam with some friends like good ol' days. Nope, it was temperamental to start, needed lots of choke for long time. It coughed, hesitated just going down street in straight line. Then stumbled and fell flat on its face if I gave it too much throttle too quickly; almost bucking me over handlebars like bull. Obviously too lean and needs bigger jets and needle-shimming right???

NO!!! That's just covering up real cause and problem, which is dirty and clogged carbs!!! You see that trend reported over and over again. Someone added bigger holes to their carbs and it runs better. Then while later, months or years, it starts hiccuping again and they go to bigger jets again... and again... and again... That's just treating symptoms. To address actual cause of problems, you need to clean carbs and restore to factory new condition!. As a baseline... then fine-tune to account for upgrades.

So, to fix my stumbling ninjette, issue, I'm going to do thorough cleaning. Ultrasonic bath with heavy-duty industrial chemicals (that you need EPA license to use). Floss all hidden passages and fuel-circuits. Soda-blast every hole and tunnel. Replace jets and needles with new ones in factory sizes. Or I can just send them to ducatiman again. Either way, getting back to factory-fresh baseline guarantees bike will run as new. Then I can make adjustments knowing I'm starting with clean-slate instead of making up for previous messes.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...php?p=1041052/

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 17th, 2018 at 10:38 PM. Reason: fixed link
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Old July 17th, 2018, 01:06 AM   #8
BloodFX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Before doing any adjustments, I suggest getting to a common baseline. That is, restore your carbs to brand new condition.

Case in point, last fall I had Gordon (ducatiman) do complete refurb job on my 2008 street-bike's carbs. They came back in sparkling clean lickable brand-new factory fresh condition. Bike ran perfectly like brand-new bike off showroom floor. Needed minimal time on choke to warm-up and ran flawlessly with no hiccups or stumbles.

Then I sold bike in Dec. to guy giving himself Festivus present. He had bigger-plans than his schedule allowed I guess. And bike sat for 6-months and I bought it back last month. Figured I'd take it for weekend ride up Mt. Tam with some friends like good ol' days. Nope, it was temperamental to start, needed lots of choke for long time. It coughed, hesitated just going down street in straight line. Then stumbled and fell flat on its face if I gave it too much throttle too quickly; almost bucking me over handlebars like bull. Obviously too lean and needs bigger jets and needle-shimming right???

NO!!! That's just covering up real cause and problem, which is dirty and clogged carbs!!! You see that trend reported over and over again. Someone added bigger holes to their carbs and it runs better. Then while later, months or years, it starts hiccuping again and they go to bigger jets again... and again... and again... That's just treating symptoms. To address actual cause of problems, you need to clean carbs and restore to factory new condition!. As a baseline... then fine-tune to account for upgrades.

So, to fix my stumbling ninjette, issue, I'm going to do thorough cleaning. Ultrasonic bath with heavy-duty industrial chemicals (that you need EPA license to use). Floss all hidden passages and fuel-circuits. Soda-blast every hole and tunnel. Replace jets and needles with new ones in factory sizes. Or I can just send them to ducatiman again. Either way, getting back to factory-fresh baseline guarantees bike will run as new. Then I can make adjustments knowing I'm starting with clean-slate instead of making up for previous messes.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...49#post1182349
My carbs are fully rebuilt by myself only thing that isn't new is the diaphragms, jets and needles and floats, should i replace all?

Last futzed with by BloodFX; July 17th, 2018 at 04:32 AM. Reason: typo
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Old July 17th, 2018, 10:43 PM   #9
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MOTM - Nov '17
If you're getting stumbling anywhere, then it's sign carbs aren't factory-fresh. There's most likely something clogged somewhere. What did you do to rebuild them?

Here's some threads with similar issues. Note number of times many people had to clean, re-clean, re-pull them and "clean" again and again until it was truly "clean".

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=318271 - don't rule out clogged filters
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=280658
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Old July 18th, 2018, 02:38 AM   #10
BloodFX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
If you're getting stumbling anywhere, then it's sign carbs aren't factory-fresh. There's most likely something clogged somewhere. What did you do to rebuild them?

Here's some threads with similar issues. Note number of times many people had to clean, re-clean, re-pull them and "clean" again and again until it was truly "clean".

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=318271 - don't rule out clogged filters
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=280658
I absolutely stripped them to the bone, replaced all seals, new float valves, new mixtures screws, diaphragms were ok no cracks, I cleaned with carb cleaner and blasted small passages with compressed air, I used the fuel level check with pipes to set fuel level correct, all pipes are brand new.

1 Thing i did notice because I didn't buy oem parts is the float valves had to be set just below 19mm as the valves seem slightly taller than oem 1's vs 17mm with oem 1's.

The 2 carb rebuild kits were tourmax btw.
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Old July 18th, 2018, 03:57 AM   #11
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I think I found the problem maybe, because I did bench sync it, but it looks out of sync on the video by miles.

1 slide moves the other hardly moves.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAGt...ature=youtu.be
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Old July 18th, 2018, 08:35 AM   #12
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MOTM - Nov '17
Ah, perhaps diaphragm is not sealing?
Or you've got clogged vacuum passage going to slide.
Manually move slide by hand after taking cover off, does it move smoothly with no binding?

Also carb-cleaner and compressed air will only do 10% job of cleaning fuel-circuits. They need to be mechanically flossed to scrape off dried varnished gas. That stuff is plastic, it will not dissolve with any solvent. Then passages need to be soda-blasted to clear off remaining varnish fragments.

For example, your needle-jets shows dark-brown dried-gas varnish. They should be bright shiny silver. That's most likely same condition of your fuel-circuits on inside. Not a big deal on needle-jets because outside doesn't do anything. But anything on walls of fuel-circuits will shrink its diameter and reduce flow.
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Old July 18th, 2018, 11:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Ah, perhaps diaphragm is not sealing?
Or you've got clogged vacuum passage going to slide.
Manually move slide by hand after taking cover off, does it move smoothly with no binding?

Also carb-cleaner and compressed air will only do 10% job of cleaning fuel-circuits. They need to be mechanically flossed to scrape off dried varnished gas. That stuff is plastic, it will not dissolve with any solvent. Then passages need to be soda-blasted to clear off remaining varnish fragments.

For example, your needle-jets shows dark-brown dried-gas varnish. They should be bright shiny silver. That's most likely same condition of your fuel-circuits on inside. Not a big deal on needle-jets because outside doesn't do anything. But anything on walls of fuel-circuits will shrink its diameter and reduce flow.
Anywhere in the UK I can get them deep cleaned?

Also am I checking the right diaphragm yea?
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Old July 19th, 2018, 06:08 PM   #14
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MOTM - Nov '17
Yes, inspect diaphragm and fix right slide first as that may resolve your issue. Sealing around edge may be compromised if it slipped out when putting cap back on.
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Old July 20th, 2018, 02:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yes, inspect diaphragm and fix right slide first as that may resolve your issue. Sealing around edge may be compromised if it slipped out when putting cap back on.
Checked it its fine, held the diaphragm up to the sunlight no holes or cracks and it moves freely with cap on and off, also the the vacuum hole had no blockage.

I put my fingers over each intake with the rubber manifolds removed and cranked the engine the vacum feels very strong on both sides and I found this on 1 rubber manifold on the right hand side.

(Offtopic) I loled hard when I saw this test method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndHmI9flPCA


Last futzed with by BloodFX; July 20th, 2018 at 10:51 AM.
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Old July 20th, 2018, 02:55 PM   #16
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MOTM - Nov '17
Ahahahaha!! That's hilarious!

Not sure how large hole is or how much vacuum that robs you. Certain fix that first and go from there! Good job on troubleshooting!
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Old July 23rd, 2018, 04:16 AM   #17
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Ahahahaha!! That's hilarious!

Not sure how large hole is or how much vacuum that robs you. Certain fix that first and go from there! Good job on troubleshooting!
Ordered 2 brand new manifolds.
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