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Old August 26th, 2017, 11:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I sort of see your point but the Grom and Z125 seem to be doing okay -- I own a Z125 myself. Can't speak for the rest of the country but the real "issue" I have is if you live in a region where highways are required to get somewhere that's where it becomes problematic - they're either literally illegal (for many highways the law requires over 150ccs) or they're at redline and still slower than traffic. I love my 125 but I could never use it as a primary.
That's a bit different...

I think the reason why Grom, Z125, Razkull, K-pipe, Vader 125, TNT135, and all the other bikes sell well in the US is because people who buy these bikes are looking for something comical and fun to ride around town.

Yes there's a place in the US for 50cc scooter as well.

But if you're talking about motorcycles...I don't think small displacement bikes will sell.
All the sportbikes are 300cc minimum for today's US standard, not 50cc or 125cc.
Yamaha V-Star 125 is NOT available in the US, the smallest Vstar is like 650cc.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 11:55 PM   #42
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Americans love big engines. It's a fact.

Small displacement motorcycles are available in Asia and Europe (as you probably know already) but if any of these bikes come to the US, they won't sell simply because the engine is too small.
Very true, the majority of Americans prefer larger bikes. But *many*, as in a not insignificant group rather than the majority, could benefit from small displacement bikes. However, I'm not trying to imply suddenly small bikes will be the majority of sales.

Regardless of what most riders would want, many young riders, let's say 18-25 years old or so, can't afford big bikes. A returned trend towards larger and more expensive bikes will price young, new riders out of the sport.

Consider it insurance for the future, but in my opinion, without small bikes you'll see what's already happening continue. Motorcycling will decline in the US.

Older, more experienced, and more financially well off riders will flock to large displacement motorcycles yielding higher revenues than small bikes for manufacturers in the short term. However, rider replacement from the younger ranks will slow, and consequently the market as a whole.

Now, compared to 2007 when we had a 20 year old Ninja 250 and not much else in the US, we live in a dreamland of small bikes. With the proliferation of small bikes I think we've seen their popularity increase. I'd like to see small bikes become "cool" to mainstream consumers or at the very least, not "girly" or "a joke". Let's give the younger riders a stepping stone into the big bike market so they don't skip motorcycling all together.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 06:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I sort of see your point but the Grom and Z125 seem to be doing okay -- I own a Z125 myself. Can't speak for the rest of the country but the real "issue" I have is if you live in a region where highways are required to get somewhere that's where it becomes problematic - they're either literally illegal (for many highways the law requires over 150ccs) or they're at redline and still slower than traffic. I love my 125 but I could never use it as a primary.
I don't think I'd feel safe on fast (60mph+) roads on a 125. My 250 feels like it has just enough power that I can move decisively among fast traffic and claim my lines on the road. I think if my bike was any less powerful, I'd feel like a leaf blowing around in heavy traffic; less control and much more at the mercy of the common absent minded driver.

I've ridden 125s on slower roads and felt fine.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 01:55 PM   #44
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I'm seeing a lot of R3s on the roads. I've seen a few other little bikes, too. I'm glad to see it- I think it's great that people are discovering them, and you don't have to have a giant (expensive) Harley to go ride.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:22 AM   #45
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was indeed a big single based on an MX-style engine. The big K has sorted out it's 250 section with a 250 single, the z250SL and Ninja 250SL. Singles cost less than an equivalent twin to make, and power output is more often a function of spec rather than cost. After all, a long duration & high lift cam cost the same to make as a mild one.

I can imagine this new 400 being a single, and then the new 650s being based on a big bored engine - the pistons from the ZZR1400 should fit in the cases, giving 665cc, and if they match the stroke they'd get 720cc, which would help them take the fight to the MT-07 and the new KTM Duke twin.

I don't know any of this, but it's all plausible.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #46
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I don't think I'd feel safe on fast (60mph+) roads on a 125. My 250 feels like it has just enough power that I can move decisively among fast traffic and claim my lines on the road. I think if my bike was any less powerful, I'd feel like a leaf blowing around in heavy traffic; less control and much more at the mercy of the common absent minded driver.

I've ridden 125s on slower roads and felt fine.
I'm in agreement. I wouldn't buy a 250 because I didn't think it had enough power for highway speeds, and without highway capabilities it's just an occasional rider. When the 300's came out, I started watching and drooling. I finally picked one up - and I have a larger bike and have had even larger ones. I find myself reducing engine size because I have no need to go 150MPH. I just love riding. But - I also don't want to get "run over" by 90MPH traffic on the expressway.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #47
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I want one of those tiny sport bike things I see with the kids popping wheelies an such at stoplights; they look so fun, but I wouldn't take one of those cartoon bikes on the highway
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 04:57 PM   #48
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The bike will be announced in New York at the show Dec. 1-3. Not sure is 300 or 400. But, since racing is open to 300s I suspect it won't be a 400. Just new design....we will see in Dec.

Now the photo below is a bike by Boom it has a kawi tail and duc nose, it is a 200c.c.

They have several models. One has a duc tail and ninja nose...
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Old October 18th, 2017, 09:36 AM   #49
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Should find out details soon by the sounds of this:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/n...aki-ninja-400/
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Old October 20th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #50
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[motorcycle.com] - 399cc 2018 Kawasaki Ninja 400 Confirmed for US




The California Air Resources Board has issued an executive order certifying a 2018 Kawasaki Ninja 400 with a 399cc engine. The certification confirms what we assumed earlier this year after a local television news program aired a story about Kawasaki filming a commercial in Milwaukee, revealing the Ninja 400 name.


Since that story broke, Kawasaki announced most of its returning 2018 U.S. models, which noticeably omitted the Ninja 300. We can now safely assume that the new Ninja 400 will be replacing the 300 in Kawasaki’s lineup as its entry-level sportbike.

The new Ninja 400 continues a trend of beginner bikes growing larger and larger in recent years. The 249cc Ninja 250 had been around for years, and you can still regularly find them on the used bike market long after it was replaced in 2013 by the Ninja 300. The impetus for that displacement increase was the introduction of a new rival in the Honda CBR250R. Since then, the Ninjette has seen more new rivals sporting even larger engines in the KTM RC390 and the Yamaha YZF-R3. Honda’s CBR250R was later replaced by the CBR300R (and hopefully soon, a larger version of the new CBR250RR currently offered in Asia). It’s also likely just a matter of time before BMW puts its G310 motor in a fairing. Apart from the late-to-the-party Suzuki GSX-250R and offerings from smaller manufacturers like Hyosung, the entry-level sportbike market has long outgrown the quarter-liter displacement that thousands of new riders started out on for years.

The CARB document certifies two model codes: EX400GJ and EX400HJ. All of Kawasaki’s previous small-displacement Ninjas used the EX designation, so this is clearly for the Ninja 400. The J at the end stands for the 2018 model year and the G and H letters likely signify color options, likely green (G) and white (H).


While the CARB certification confirms the engine displaces 399cc, the document does not tell us how it reaches that size. Kawasaki had previously produced a Ninja 400 in Asia (and briefly, Canada) that was essentially a smaller version of the Ninja 650’s powerplant but it’s more likely we’re looking at either a sized-up version of the Ninja 300’s engine, if not a new motor all-together.

To keep costs manageable for the beginner market, Kawasaki is likely keeping its littlest Ninja a Twin, so those hoping to see a small-displacement Inline-Four will have to keep dreaming. Increasing the 300 engine’s bore from 62.0 mm to 72.0 mm while keeping the stroke at 49.0 mm will produce a 399cc engine, but a more moderate increase in piston size combined with a longer stroke may be more likely.

With a 399cc displacement, the 2018 Kawasaki Ninja 400 qualifies for Japan’s sub-400cc license class, so it’s possible we’ll see it next week at the Tokyo Motor Show. It’s more likely, however, that Kawasaki will wait for EICMA next month. As always, Motorcycle.com will have the latest information as it becomes available.

399cc 2018 Kawasaki Ninja 400 Confirmed for US appeared first on Motorcycle.com.



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Old October 20th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #51
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The latest Ninja 400 news -

http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-featu...ed-for-us.html

It's happening.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #52
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...Ho&app=desktop

Link to original page on YouTube.

der it is.

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Old October 24th, 2017, 11:30 PM   #53
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Here's some static shots showing the color options and specs:

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...nja-400-debuts

Looks like 6 HP more and 6 kg less than the Ninja 300.
Not so sure about the H2 styling though. Hmmm.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 12:38 AM   #54
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Another video:

Ninja 400 version:

Link to original page on YouTube.

Same video, Ninja 250 version (likely for different markets?):

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old October 25th, 2017, 01:07 AM   #55
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Another video:

Ninja 400 version:

Same video, Ninja 250 version (likely for different markets?):
Yeah it is a bit confusing alright. Essentially the same video clip with two different bike options but both are clearly filmed in America?
Will find out in the next few days I guess.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 04:53 AM   #56
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Personally i would rather see a redesigned 250 with some upgrades like USD forks and a shock that has rebound and compression vs another engine cc bump.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Another video:

Ninja 400 version:

Link to original page on YouTube.

Notice the footage from the early Milwaukee shoot and some track time at Road America.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 09:12 AM   #58
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Old October 25th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #59
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I dislike that this will be replacing the 300, the cc bump throws off the racing series just as it became stable with the WSS300 series and the new Motoamerica series announced. This move changes the entire landscape of both series.

I like the frame swap, the old frame was one of the largest concerns with the 300 as it is so weak. I would have rather seen upgrades to the suspension (switch to USD forks) as well as the braking system along with a general refinement to the bike with a couple problem areas being touched up (such as the transmission needing an undercut)

but as far as marketing goes it's too easy to fall into a cc war, the question is how far they will go before they aren't ultralight bikes anymore
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Old October 25th, 2017, 12:39 PM   #60
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I dislike that this will be replacing the 300, the cc bump throws off the racing series just as it became stable with the WSS300 series and the new Motoamerica series announced. This move changes the entire landscape of both series.

I like the frame swap, the old frame was one of the largest concerns with the 300 as it is so weak. I would have rather seen upgrades to the suspension (switch to USD forks) as well as the braking system along with a general refinement to the bike with a couple problem areas being touched up (such as the transmission needing an undercut)

but as far as marketing goes it's too easy to fall into a cc war, the question is how far they will go before they aren't ultralight bikes anymore
I pretty much concur with all of that. It's easy to win the performance stakes with extra cc's esp when you have to meet Euro four regs.
I would have preferred an up spec'd 300 myself. I thought Honda might have started a trend with the CBR250RR they bought out in the Asian market last year but it seems not.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 05:14 PM   #61
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Kawasaki: "Class leading power." No, you dorks, you left the class because some marketing genius determined that more cc's = more better. To me it's nothing more than a Ninja 650 that's even slower.

Nothing like messing up race classes. AGAIN. I would have been impressed if they made a better 300. For example, maybe a front forks design from this decade.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #62
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I pretty much concur with all of that. It's easy to win the performance stakes with extra cc's esp when you have to meet Euro four regs.
I would have preferred an up spec'd 300 myself. I thought Honda might have started a trend with the CBR250RR they bought out in the Asian market last year but it seems not.
Thought I heard a rumor that the CBR250RR might make it to the US in a 300 version
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Old October 26th, 2017, 02:07 AM   #63
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Thought I heard a rumor that the CBR250RR might make it to the US in a 300 version
There had been rumor all year of a 350cc variant of the 250RR but it's not happening for 2018. They are rolling out the standard 300R for another year with some different color options (yawn)
2019 maybe?? One lives in hope.
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Old October 26th, 2017, 10:14 AM   #64
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I'm right there with those longing for higher-spec components. I love this class of bike for its economy and usefulness. I love my supersport for its vastly superior suspension and brakes. I really wish I could bring the two together.

We're never going to get past the harsh realities of market demographics. Small bikes are beginner/commuter bikes, and the only ones yearning for higher spec components are the few... the proud... the slightly loony.... the performance-oriented canyon carvers, racers and track riders.

It simply does not make economic sense for a manufacturer to up the component spec (and therefore the cost) of this class of bike to draw that small audience. New riders and those given to farkling their rides don't know better and don't care. They base decisions on cost, appearance and lifestyle.

Bottom line: There are reasons why new bikes with fully adjustable suspensions cost thousands more than more pedestrian, non-adjustable rides -- and given the economics of today's market, higher margins are not the primary driving force behind those prices. If higher spec didn't cost more, OF COURSE every manufacturer would be competing based on it... no reason not to. They don't because they'd lose market share due to pricing. We might be prepared to pay a hefty premium to get the goodies we crave, but most riders aren't.

What I do think could work would be a factory performance accessory catalog, with everything from engine tuning mods to upgraded suspension bits to whole front ends. They could even do packages... buy one part number, get all you need. Dealers need only stock base models. Those who really do want an upgraded bike could order the parts. Everybody wins.

We all know that most of this stuff (aside from an improved frame) simply bolts on and does not require vast amounts of mechanical knowledge or skill. Any dealer can do the build, or they could sell direct to owners who want to do it themselves.

In the real world, what happens (and would continue to happen) is that performance-oriented riders do their own mods via the aftermarket, using best-of-breed components. This strong aftermarket support is precisely why the Ninjette continues to be popular as a track and race bike.

The one place where I think the factory could become the preferred source of upgraded components would be the front end of the bike. The best the aftermarket can do there is compromise mods like GVEs/Intiminators and the usual brake pad/SS line upgrades. Some bikes (e.g. SVs) lend themselves to front-end swaps, but things like that always require a donor bike and fabrication, and AFAIK there's no option for the Ninjette. A bolt-on, fully adjustable factory front end with improved brakes, plus a drop-in rear shock... now we're talkin'.
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Old October 26th, 2017, 10:43 AM   #65
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What I do think could work would be a factory performance accessory catalog, with everything from engine tuning mods to upgraded suspension bits to whole front ends. They could even do packages... buy one part number, get all you need. Dealers need only stock base models. Those who really do want an upgraded bike could order the parts. Everybody wins.

The one place where I think the factory could become the preferred source of upgraded components would be the front end of the bike. The best the aftermarket can do there is compromise mods like GVEs/Intiminators and the usual brake pad/SS line upgrades. Some bikes (e.g. SVs) lend themselves to front-end swaps, but things like that always require a donor bike and fabrication, and AFAIK there's no option for the Ninjette. A bolt-on, fully adjustable factory front end with improved brakes, plus a drop-in rear shock... now we're talkin'.
This is a great idea, it is also effectively what KTM did with their RC390 cup package. For extra money you could have all the bells and whistles of a top notch race bike, and having ridden both I can attest that it is a night and day difference. Packages like that are huge. I also admit I would find myself going aftermarket for suspension no matter what, but I'm also a very rare type of rider that isn't being directly targeted by their marketing campaign. However, aftermarket doesn't give us frames (which was improved drastically) or usable upside down fork setups which adds a large amount of edge on the performance side in addition to looking cooler on the showroom floor. It doesn't matter what they put in these forks as internals since that will be swapped immediately.

On the note of front end aftermarket, GVEs/Intiminators are a basic step, the top step is cartridge kits. These cartridge kits are massively better, and are actually the best possible setup for our bikes since gas fork swaps aren't available. On the note of the front end swap for the SVs, this is actually a terrible swap as it ruins the geometry of the bike and causes the front end to be far too stiff, it is possible for it to work with a lot of tuning but it will never be as good as the stock forks with cartridge kits in them.

I would buy a bolt on USD fork front end kit immediately if it became available for my R3 or Ninja 300
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Old October 26th, 2017, 12:19 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sirref View Post
This is a great idea, it is also effectively what KTM did with their RC390 cup package. For extra money you could have all the bells and whistles of a top notch race bike, and having ridden both I can attest that it is a night and day difference. Packages like that are huge. I also admit I would find myself going aftermarket for suspension no matter what, but I'm also a very rare type of rider that isn't being directly targeted by their marketing campaign. However, aftermarket doesn't give us frames (which was improved drastically) or usable upside down fork setups which adds a large amount of edge on the performance side in addition to looking cooler on the showroom floor. It doesn't matter what they put in these forks as internals since that will be swapped immediately.

On the note of front end aftermarket, GVEs/Intiminators are a basic step, the top step is cartridge kits. These cartridge kits are massively better, and are actually the best possible setup for our bikes since gas fork swaps aren't available. On the note of the front end swap for the SVs, this is actually a terrible swap as it ruins the geometry of the bike and causes the front end to be far too stiff, it is possible for it to work with a lot of tuning but it will never be as good as the stock forks with cartridge kits in them.

I would buy a bolt on USD fork front end kit immediately if it became available for my R3 or Ninja 300
Thanks for that bit of info. I race an SV650 with standard forks apart from race tech springs and GVE's. Not 100% happy with it so good to know that cartridge kit is way to go.
Will shut up now as this has nothing to with topic
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Old October 27th, 2017, 06:00 AM   #67
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Looking at the bike in the released videos, it looks like an ER-6 engine which they use in 400 format in Japan & a few places where there is a license break for the smaller capacity. Slotted into an slightly tweaked Ninja 250/300 frame to accomodate it. I hope they pulled some weight out of that lump as its quite heavy at around 62Kg in 650 form.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 06:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mohawk View Post
Looking at the bike in the released videos, it looks like an ER-6 engine which they use in 400 format in Japan & a few places where there is a license break for the smaller capacity. Slotted into an slightly tweaked Ninja 250/300 frame to accomodate it. I hope they pulled some weight out of that lump as its quite heavy at around 62Kg in 650 form.
There was a photo that circulated not long ago showing that style (downsized 650 basically) but later photos showed the more traditional 250/300 engine design.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #69
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Old October 27th, 2017, 06:32 AM   #70
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Old October 27th, 2017, 06:51 AM   #71
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The release video, clearly shows right front water pump, with external cylinder & head bolts, ala ER-6 architecture. Definately NOT a 250/300 based engine.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 07:12 AM   #72
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You may be right on that.

Here's a photo of the 400 engine -



Here's the 650 -



Here's the 300 -



It is more similar to the 650 design, with the pump on the front right, than the 300.

Can't say I really like the idea of a sleeved 650 engine.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #73
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Old October 28th, 2017, 04:19 AM   #74
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I had a feeling this might be coming. I'm not sure how I feel about it - I think the 300 is plenty for a new rider (hell, it's enough for me and I've got nearly 20K on mine). This doesn't solve any problem apart from the fact it moves Kawi to the top of the tree again. Until someone comes out with their own 400, of course.

I'm curious about price point. It can't be too expensive or people would surely pick the 650?
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Old October 28th, 2017, 05:47 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
You may be right on that.

Here's a photo of the 400 engine -

*snip*

It is more similar to the 650 design, with the pump on the front right, than the 300.

Can't say I really like the idea of a sleeved 650 engine.
Let the engine swaps begin! Kidding. Just buy the 650 at that point. But maybe it will help with the aftermarket to have a similar tried and true engine already available.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 11:33 AM   #76
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The only thing I remember reading in the press releases about the engine was that it was "all new" and 1kg lighter than the old 300 motor. I'm sure there is lots of cross over parts inside there from both the 300 and 650 motors.
I read somewhere recently that 30% of the engine components in the 300 motor dated way back to the original GPX250 motor from the late eighties.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 01:15 PM   #77
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I think this motor would have made more sense in the baby Versys.

I'd like to try it. I'm a tiny bit worried it might suffer from the CBR500 syndrome; a competent bike with a slightly dull motor.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 04:32 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Sulman View Post
I think this motor would have made more sense in the baby Versys.

I'd like to try it. I'm a tiny bit worried it might suffer from the CBR500 syndrome; a competent bike with a slightly dull motor.
It should be quite spiritedly compared to the CBR as it has much the same amount of power but is 26kg lighter. The CBR is a real porker.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #79
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It should be quite spiritedly compared to the CBR as it has much the same amount of power but is 26kg lighter. The CBR is a real porker.
Yes, I just noticed it's fairly high revving too - peak HP at 10k. Area P's dyno on the '300 stock showed it made peak power at 10.75 and that it wasn't worth spinning it any higher with the stock pipe, so it's the same approach.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 04:34 AM   #80
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I read somewhere recently that 30% of the engine components in the 300 motor dated way back to the original GPX250 motor from the late eighties.
The GPX250 was released in 1984, so the engine would have been designed in 81-83 all by hand, back then. It was until 2004 the most powerful stock production 4-stroke engine in a Bike ! So 20 years st the top of the pile, until the 1000 engines took over.

The 400 is 650 based, so nothing from the 300 will be in that engine. It’s also a lot heavier than the 300 engine. The 650 weight in at around 62kg which is a heavy lump, the Busa 1300 is only 58kg !!!
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