Challenge Me....

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

On the street, yes for several reasons including reduced pace as well as tires that are designed for better wet grip

On track, almost. It moves the braking point and turn in point earlier slightly but not by much. I also don't use as much lean in the wet (likely mental more than anything else, just need more track time in wet conditions) while turning in slightly slower but still quick. How big of a difference depends on conditions. The goal is still to get the bike leaned over as quickly as possible

Yes, the goal is to turn the bike as quickly as possible but you certainly can't snap a bike over as quickly in the wet as you can in the dry. There is just not as much available traction in slippery wet conditions. That means you have to turn the bike slower which means it will take you longer to get to the lean angle you need which means that you have to initiate your turn in EARLIER.

So in the rain you will have to adjust your turn in points as you simply can't go into the corner as deep and snap it over as quickly as you could if if was dry.

Misti

[N-m]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Suspension setup

I know nothing, therefore I do not know what information I lack and what to even ask

also an addition to cornering:
-quicker and smoother side to side transitions
-cornering smooth and fast at the same time
--smooth quick flicks
--smooth trailbraking to throttle transitions
how much throttle can you really use leaned over
feeling what the bike is doing beside you, what the bike should feel like leaned over at speed

Stock suspension set up as it relates specifically to each generation of ninjette, or a combination of parts like a new gen shock on a prefen.

1. Set up for different scenarios,
2. What happens when we use extreme ranges.

[N-m]

Originally Posted by csmith12

That is a pretty big subject Snot... Your gunna have to narrow it down to a specific that is achievable to both me as a writing and everyone else as a reader/rider.

How to use controls to your advantGe through turns no matter the lean angle.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by N-m

How to use controls to your advantGe through turns no matter the lean angle.

this is straightforward

you want to reduce braking and add acceleration, slowly (admittedly we can get away with adding acceleration pretty quickly but that's because we don't have much to add) and smoothly.

You do this to make the suspension happy, at street pace it's not really necessary to do anything more than maintenance throttle. If you question accelerating out of corners look at your front and rear tires and see how the bike was designed to handle

[subxero]

are these specifically riding skill type questions or teaching/coaching questions as well?

[csmith12]

Either way Joe, I don't get the choice of questions I am asked when I take the test.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Either way Joe, I don't get the choice of questions I am asked when I take the test.

You are coaching, one of the riders goes down with no glaring mistake. The rider is visibly shaken, doubting confidence, but for the most part no physical injuries. (not sure about the schools polices on crashes and if the rider is aloud to continue or not, lets just assume they are allowed??) The ride is a little unsure about getting back on the bike for the day. How do you as a coach handle the situation and does the age and or experience of the rider change how you handle the situation?

Also how does the crashing of one of your students effect you and your ability to continue to coach other students through out the session/day/weekend/year whatevs

Same question immediately above but now the rider has been injured, does it change anything?

[csmith12]

After a few practice tests from my friends I think i have seen the error of my ways for passing this test.

Originally Posted by N-m

How to use controls to your advantGe through turns no matter the lean angle.

Using your controls to your advantage starts with the rider's attitude before the ride/session.

Many just use enough inputs to get the job at hand done. Many riders are actually quite lazy at the exit of the turn, while another set of riders are busy at the exit trying to get their speed back from being lazy on entry, and others, are lazy at both ends. Where are you lazy? And... are you lazy all the time or just some of the time?

The other big thing about controls are the timing of those inputs. Timing is very subtle, so I will guide this one a bit more. Some riders say "slow hands make a happy bike". What controls would you be faster on than others?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Noobies guide to overcoming fear of the moto, or va jj...

Great idea, and what a great thread to have to catch up on. Chris, Ninjette members are lucky to have you in our lives, whether in person or electronically.

[crazymadbastard]

Thanks for the helpful work. Not sure has been requested but hows about top 7 practice drills to do every day, every ride. For me it would be panic stop, smidsy, u turns and swerves.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Thanks for the helpful work. Not sure has been requested but hows about top 7 practice drills to do every day, every ride. For me it would be panic stop, smidsy, u turns and swerves.

I love this question! In the order I do them... every ride.... every time.

1. Rider focus - leave the events of the day behind and clear the mind to relax
2. Tire warm up - one mile of just getting settled, the next two miles are flexing of the tire's carcass, hard(er) on the gas, harder on the brakes (progressively).
3. Saddle sores - remind myself to sit farther back in the seat (or in your sweet spot).
4. Look up! (vision) - The front tire is right there where it always has been, no need to look at it
5. Chicken dance - About 4-5 .miles into the ride, flap those arms and ensure your loose, repeat as needed.
6. Feet and knees - Feet on the pegs proper to support good steering and let legs absorb any traction slip issues before it makes it to my head and knees into the tank for a good lock.
7. Roll on, roll off - roll on for when you need it, roll off for when you might think you don't

One can complete these things in the first 2-4 miles of your ride. Not only does it warm up the bike and tires, but also the rider.

What can you add to this list?

[chemist]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I love this question! In the order I do them... every ride.... every time.

1. Rider focus - leave the events of the day behind and clear the mind to relax
2. Tire warm up - one mile of just getting settled, the next two miles are flexing of the tire's carcass, hard(er) on the gas, harder on the brakes (progressively).
3. Saddle sores - remind myself to sit farther back in the seat (or in your sweat spot).
4. Look up! (vision) - The front tire is right there where it always has been, no need to look at it
5. Chicken dance - About 4-5 .miles into the ride, flap those arms and ensure your loose, repeat as needed.
6. Feet and knees - Feet on the pegs proper to support good steering and let legs absorb any traction slip issues before it makes it to my head and knees into the tank for a good lock.
7. Roll on, roll off - roll on for when you need it, roll off for when you might think you don't

One can complete these things in the first 2-4 miles of your ride. Not only does it warm up the bike and tires, but also the rider.

What can you add to this list?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

5. Chicken dance - About 4-5 .miles into the ride, flap those arms and ensure your loose, repeat as needed.

Oh that's what that's for, I thought you were trying to fly

as for #7 it's pretty hilarious, my throttle roll ons are perfect but the moment I go to roll off I forget about that weird throttle gap that the ninjettes have at the first 5% throttle so it always ends up jerky (street riding, not noticeable at track)

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Baron

I'm planning on doing an intro to track course this summer if I can, so anything on Body positioning for Dummies would be helpful :P

Would this be your first track day?

[Baron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Would this be your first track day?

That it would be.

[csmith12]

how much throttle can you really use leaned over?

This is an interesting question.

Let's get this straight up front; mid corner, your only goal with a smooth, continuous throttle roll, should be to transfer the weight (40/60) to the rear of the bike. Your throttle is lean angle sensitive, the more you lean, the less aggressive you can be with it.

You know throttle control rule #1 right... So, if you feel the need to ask the above question, then many times it's a sign that something else is off or, you have a bike with more advanced electronics that allow the rider to be more aggressive with their throttle roll.

So let's ask some questions to try to figure it out.
If a rider over braked for a corner, would they want to use more throttle mid corner?
If a rider misjudged the entry speed too low, would they want to use more throttle mid corner?
If a rider judges a corner as having a narrow entry but widens out greatly, would they tend to use more throttle mid corner?
How about a rider with a bad turn in point? Could that rider feel the need to be more aggressive?
What about a rider that turns the bike slowly (slow flick rate)? Could they possibly want to be more aggressive?

These are just a few examples of riders using the wrong tool to fix the wrong problem. There are many skills that come together to allow a bike to go fast, concentrating on the throttle, as important as it is... still will only get you so far.

So is a bike out of control when the rear slides due to aggressive throttle while leaning? Not at all, simply put... even while totally lit up a spinning tire still has a level of traction. This is proven by flat track riders who slide sideways around corners and racers that leave marks on corner exit as their wheels spin up. Notice anything in common? Their lean angles are reduced. If their bikes where near max lean, the reduced traction due to a spinning wheel would wash out the rear. One way of solving the sliding problem is via electronics such as traction control or slide control as some manufacturers call it. There is a manual way was well. Any thoughts on when and what a rider can do to allow them be more aggressive with the throttle without the aids of electronics?

EDIT: This is rather important for us riders of low power bikes. Taking advantage of other skills to keep the pace up is especially important as we cannot depend on the throttle to lay down the power to make up the speed lost.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Baron

That it would be.

K, thanks. Lemme get some work done and I will come back to this in a bit.

[csmith12]

@Misti

I have a question for you please.

I can only recognize a "chopped up" technique about 50% of the time and mostly on the throttle and sometimes on the brakes. I "think" I am looking for the bike to pogo and associate that with being "chopped up" to much but I know for 100% sure, it can be more subtle than that.

Can you help me spot the clues more easily?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

On the street, yes for several reasons including reduced pace as well as tires that are designed for better wet grip

On track, almost. It moves the braking point and turn in point earlier slightly but not by much. I also don't use as much lean in the wet (likely mental more than anything else, just need more track time in wet conditions) while turning in slightly slower but still quick. How big of a difference depends on conditions. The goal is still to get the bike leaned over as quickly as possible

Originally Posted by csmith12

@Misti

I have a question for you please.

I can only recognize a "chopped up" technique about 50% of the time and mostly on the throttle and sometimes on the brakes. I "think" I am looking for the bike to pogo and associate that with being "chopped up" to much but I know for 100% sure, it can be more subtle than that.

Can you help me spot the clues more easily?

Certainly. But can you explain a little more what you mean by "chopped up" technique? Not sure I really get your question without you clarifying a bit more....

Thx.
Misti

[csmith12]

In the above posts, I was asked about how to use the controls to the advantage of the rider.

During the twist 2 movie, in the section about turn in point selection/reference point. It shows a rider cornering with a "chopped up" brake release (@ 56:27). This relates to the "timing" comment I made above. While that one is easier to spot, others are harder for me.

Here is what I am using for clues now;

I can hear the throttle go on, off or hesitation - choppy throttle
I can see the bike/head of rider pogo - choppy brakes + tight on bars
I can hear engine braking via rpms too high - slow transition from throttle to brakes
I can see/hear a very deep trail braking - slow transition from brakes to throttle or charging corner

All in all, can be spoken as "chopped up" control inputs.

Hope that helps explain my question better and thanks.

[Baron]

This thread is turning out better than I expected. I am going to make a PDF out of it for later viewing. :P

[crazymadbastard]

Ok hows about top 11 rookie mistakes and how to spot and avoid/correct them.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Ok hows about top 11 rookie mistakes and how to spot and avoid/correct them.

I posted this somewhere else a while back.

13 Signs that someone probably won't be "taking the checkered" on the group canyon ride that day

1 - Someone with very little in the way of gear (Inexperience or overconfidence? You choose.).

2 - Someone that isn't looking through the turns.

3 - Someone that can't brake or use the throttle smoothly.

4 - Someone that apexes early and nearly crosses the outside line on a constant basis.

5 - Someone that isn't relaxed and smooth with their body movements and control inputs.

6 - Someone that constantly rides in the same lane position that they would if driving a car.

7 - Someone that constantly sits up straight and never moves around on the machine (BMW riders excepted, of course.).

8 - Someone that always rides near the inside line during a turn.

9 - Someone that nearly runs off the road on corner exits.

10 - Someone that rides 'duck-footed' (toes sticking way out) even in the turns.

11 - Someone that sticks their crotch against the tank and rides with an arched back and straight arms.

12 - Someone that flies by everyone else on the straight and then holds them up by parking it in the corner.

13 - Someone that's on a poorly maintained bike. Bald tires and a dry, loud chain are bad signs.

14 - Someone that absolutely MUST keep up with the rider in front of them on a ride.

15 - Someone that isn't capable of canceling their turn signal for miles and miles.

16 - Someone that can't maintain their place in the pack on a group ride.

Okay... I lied. There are sixteen.

Ride on,

J~

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

In the above posts, I was asked about how to use the controls to the advantage of the rider.

During the twist 2 movie, in the section about turn in point selection/reference point. It shows a rider cornering with a "chopped up" brake release (@ 56:27). This relates to the "timing" comment I made above. While that one is easier to spot, others are harder for me.

Here is what I am using for clues now;

I can hear the throttle go on, off or hesitation - choppy throttle
I can see the bike/head of rider pogo - choppy brakes + tight on bars
I can hear engine braking via rpms too high - slow transition from throttle to brakes
I can see/hear a very deep trail braking - slow transition from brakes to throttle or charging corner

All in all, can be spoken as "chopped up" control inputs.

Hope that helps explain my question better and thanks.

Yes it does. The clues you are using now are good but they all relate to watching the rider (which is fine) but you also want to take a good look at their LINE through the corner. This will give you tons of clues about what they are doing.

A rider that has choppy control inputs, whether it be brakes or throttle or steering will also have unpredictable lines.

Look for:
running wide at the exit of a corner
multiple steering inputs
hugging the inside of the corner
missing the apex
adding lean angle and throttle at the same time (This is very dangerous)
charging the turn and delayed throttle

What we do when we are following our students is continue to run good lines with good throttle control, that way we can really notice what the student is doing wrong. If we run up their ass in the braking zone they are most likely charging the turn, over braking, having poor visual skills etc...

If we run up their ass mid corner then they got on the gas too late.

If we run up their ass at the exit then perhaps they didn't roll on hard enough and aren't look far enough ahead.

If they run wide then their turn in was incorrect or they turned too slow....

Things become really obvious when you continue to run good lines behind students that are taking wonky ones

Another tip. Don't wait when you see a student making a drastic mistake or riding over their head. Pull them over, tell them they are running on the ragged edge and will crash if they don't get things under control. They will most often thank you for looking out for them, and you probably saved them from a big get off.

Hope that answers your question. This is a great thread!!!

Misti

[csmith12]

Thank you Misti, more dots connected.

[csmith12]

@Sirref & @N-m

Thanks to Misti's insight...

When using your controls to benefit, what does the picking up the bike on exit allow you to do? How does that help you in the wet?

[Sirref]

It allows you to get on the throttle (or brakes) more due to increasing the size of the contact patch. Though there is one thing, is increasing throttle and decreasing lean at the same time as good as increasing throttle and increasing lean at the same time is bad?

Theoretically increasing the contact patch (decreasing lean) would make increasing the throttle safer to do in dry and wet but would make a bigger difference in wet as it's easier to spin the rear up in wet conditions

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Though there is one thing, is increasing throttle and decreasing lean at the same time as good as increasing throttle and increasing lean at the same time is bad?

Yes sir, you're getting it Ben.

Originally Posted by Sirref

Theoretically increasing the contact patch (decreasing lean) would make increasing the throttle safer to do in dry and wet but would make a bigger difference in wet as it's easier to spin the rear up in wet conditions

The answer to your question can be found in the corrective actions to take when the rear starts to slide (yes even on a 250).

I will start you off... the answer is NOT to chop the throttle and below is a visual example.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Why did I not crash when the rear suddenly gave up grip?

[Sirref]

because you brought it up slightly

I've done that to save the front a few times, the front slipping I add throttle (or reduce brakes) and stand it up a bit, if on entry I'll re-apply braking and tip it in on a new line (I did this at one point last weekend when I braked at a normal braking marker for that session but had significantly more drive than previously because I wasn't stuck in traffic

[csmith12]

I learned a piece of good knowledge today that will help me pass this test. The name of this thread should be called "the grilling". lol

I did a few things in that vid Ben, but it's what I "didn't" do that was the most important parts. Any idea what they are? Yea... I said THEY, meaning there is more than one.

[csmith12]

@Misti - Johnny Haynes grilled the crap outta me all day long. lol He was my coach for the day and Cobie alerted him ahead of time I was a coach tryout. He said I came "well prepared".

Anyway... l I was gunna ask him the "chopped up" question I had posted here, but I forgot because I was running slightly behind on my tryout checklist. Mikey (off track) actually taught me a lot about recognizing "chopped up" while watching my friend Kevin do the steering drill in the paddock parking lot. Isn't it weird that I learned more from a slow speed parking lot drill about being "chopped up" than from what I saw on track?

Interesting stuff...

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I learned a piece of good knowledge today that will help me pass this test. The name of this thread should be called "the grilling". lol

I did a few things in that vid Ben, but it's what I "didn't" do that was the most important parts. Any idea what they are? Yea... I said THEY, meaning there is more than one.

forgot about this thread. you didn't chop the throttle for one, and you didn't do any crazy body movements that would unsettle the bike. The less movement the better in a position like that.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

@Misti - Johnny Haynes grilled the crap outta me all day long. lol He was my coach for the day and Cobie alerted him ahead of time I was a coach tryout. He said I came "well prepared".

Anyway... l I was gunna ask him the "chopped up" question I had posted here, but I forgot because I was running slightly behind on my tryout checklist. Mikey (off track) actually taught me a lot about recognizing "chopped up" while watching my friend Kevin do the steering drill in the paddock parking lot. Isn't it weird that I learned more from a slow speed parking lot drill about being "chopped up" than from what I saw on track?

Interesting stuff...

Actually the steering drill in the parking lot is where you will often see the most examples of "chopped up" and the most dramatic improvements. It's amazing how many riders have no idea how to properly steer a motorcycle. It is why I don't mind working off track at all, in fact I love doing off track days because it can be the students most profound AHH HA moment of the day when I solve some of their steering issues.

During a steering drill you can see all sorts of examples of "chopped up"

Choppy throttle, choppy body movements, choppy steering due to death gripping the bars or being crossed up, you can see the front end hitching and twitching and digging into the ground, you can see riders not looking ahead, twisting on the bike, rotating around it, trying to lean first and then steer, trying to turn the bike too hard and too fast, being jerky with all of the controls and so on.....lots to look out for!

How did the try out go? If you ever have any specific questions about the school and instructor stuff then feel free to PM me. But what you are doing with this forum should help solidify all your tech knowledge and the questions are great practice too!!! Hope you enjoyed it and Johnny is an absolutely wonderful coach!!:dance cool:

Misti

[adouglas]

Next one:

What specific things can a rider do to stop the feeling of fighting the bike? "Relax" is a bit vague.... I have an idea, and would like a reality check.

Background:
I routinely find myself putting a lot of weight on my inside arm at the track. I have to remind myself to relax and get weight off the bars, but it's been hard to do. I'm often in the middle of a corner about to roll on before I relax.

What I think I've learned in the last week:
This last weekend at NYST, thanks to input from @csmith12 and a Penguin coach at the track, the penny seems to have dropped. I've been thinking about my arms, hands and inside shoulder because that's where the symptoms are, but it all traces back to my butt.

I'm not far enough back on the seat.

Working backwards from the problem to the source, here's what I think I'm doing:

- Lack of confidence in ability to get through the corner at speed
- Lack of feeling (not "in the groove")
- Fighting the bike
- Too much weight on my arms, especially the inside arm
- Inability to drop my shoulder, relax and get my upper body low and inside
- Overwhelming urge to use my arms to counteract braking forces
- Inability to move my body laterally, inability to point my inside toe (I touched my toe sliders twice because I'm having trouble getting my toe up on the peg)
- Tank interferes with body movement off of center
- Tank hitting thigh too high up
- Too close to tank

So the root cause of fighting the bike and all the bad stuff that happens as a result is that I'm too far forward. Fix that and the dominoes start to fall... move back, and you can get your body in a better position -- even absorb braking forces with your thigh instead of your arms--, which lets you relax, which lets you carve that line.

Am I on the right track?

2014 body position - first track day


2015 body position - sixth track day, while working on moving back

[Sirref]

That sounds about right to me, every time I've seen massive improvement it has been because I changed something small about my riding

typically vision related for me, but I also have been working on better inside foot positioning and each of those has had impacts that went well beyond what I expected them to

[csmith12]

Specifics you ask?

Imho… Relaxing while riding is just as much mental as it is physical. As much as I overthink things while sitting in front of my computer, I do NOT overthink things while riding. Clear your mind of all the stresses and get ready for some fun. Worrying about the water bill late fee is not going to help your riding in any way shape or form. When the mind is relaxed, cool and calm… the body will have an easier time following all by itself. Stress is all too often accompanied by a higher heart rate, increased breathing rate and tense shoulders, ect.. ect.. While it’s hard to turn stress off, managing it in a better way will help achieve a more acceptable level of relaxation. As experience has taught me, being rushed increases my stress level, I start making mistakes and I am more prone to be tense. If your running too late for a session, sit it out or enter late. Rushing and stressing to ride will not help much either but taking your time to ensure your ready will pay you back many times over.

Do NOT stress over pace either. Most of the time, riding your best is when you’re not actually “trying to”. It’s pretty easy to slow down for the really sharp corners and go fast in the long sweepers. To push really, really hard to go fast in the sharp corners will only tire you out faster and only gain you minimal time that will most likely be lost in other areas of the track where getting inputs complete faster will gain the rider sooooo much more return on investment. Let the speed come to you, rather than chasing a pace that you’re not ready to do. Also, the long back straight is a good time to check your breathing and will tell you volumes.

Do NOT let the riding of others leak into yours. Their pace, line, turn in points, braking markers, ect. While a coach may point out a reference point, your free to adjust it to what suits you and your riding. Other riders on the track are one thing and one thing only… a distraction to your task at hand. Do your best to minimize those distractions. See everything with a WIDE FOV. Visually look through the rider ahead of you and pay no mind to the rider to your inside/outside unless you feel there is an eminent collision. Once you start letting the riding of others override yours, uncertainty can reveal itself as tenseness.

Some physical aspects of loose, comfortable riders;
They are not fighting their gear. It FITS well, stays in place, they can move around freely and comfortably
They have adjusted their bike ergos to what is comfortable for them
Found a comfy spot on the seat and frequently ensure that they are seated there during the long straights
Anchor/lock myself onto the bike well with legs
Arched back
Forearms level with the bars
Keep tidy feet on the pegs
Ensure that I am looking where I am supposed to, at the right times and far enough ahead

Your bike is a machine, let it do the hard work. Don’t forget to have fun!!!! If you’re not having fun, your most likely working harder, not smarter.

Link to original page on YouTube.

As the rider sitting on the bike… do your flow with your bike or crash against it?

[adouglas]

Bruce Lee was a total badass.

Being water can get... messy....

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Sirref]

any advice for super long sweeping corners where you're leaned over for extended periods of time?

There were a few at nccar and I was trying to find numerous reference points until I gave up on that and just used the inside grass/track border as my reference point as the corner was so long I found it almost distracting to change rp's a lot. So visually there may be an issue there but I feel that I had it almost working but not quite.

The real issue is confidence in rolling on in a corner that long as that would lead to being wide open from the halfway point on or so even with a slow roll on. Any way to increase confidence with throttle roll ons in really long sweepers

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Being water can get... messy....

I found this as well. Misti says to be water too, see here.

[subxero]

Challenge you eh?