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Old November 23rd, 2015, 11:09 AM   #161
Motofool
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
......Depending on the question, I will post a response or create a new thread as need to address any concerns. As many of you know, I have written articles on ninjette on a varitety of subject matter. Cornering, visual skills, human inputs, ect... ect... The sky's the limit and hold nothing back. PLEASE!!!!
Referring to the visual video that you posted recently, I have a challenging question for your broad track experience:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...44&postcount=1

The description of the video states that this was an experienced rider.
"ATOTW2" teaches that the throttle should be opened as soon as possible after the entry point.
It seems to me that this rider was consistently waiting for the apex to open it up.

Is that a common technique for track riding and racing?
If so, what makes the apex that "as soon as possible" point?
Is that what the book means?
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 03:19 PM   #162
csmith12
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Good question Hernan,

The short answer is "when steering is complete." But....

In reality, there are major 2 things that we see on both street and track that govern when you can finally crack open the throttle. But the book/video only covers one in depth, saving the other for detailing at a later time in a rider's skill level.

What is explicitly covered in TOTW2
Scenario 1: Getting your entry speed set just before or right at the turn in point. This allows a rider to begin their throttle roll as soon as the steering inputs are complete.

Not explicitly covered in TOTW2 (brief mention)
Scenario 2: Trail Braking... If the rider has not arrived at the corner entry speed at the turn in point, the steering input AND the remaining braking must be completed before a throttle roll can begin.

Many believe the perfect point where that safe entry speed and line come together is at the apex. So, many riders aspire to trail all the way to apex to set entry speed. The issue with that is, so many riders spend a lot of time at a very steep lean angle while on the brakes vs rolling the throttle. Pushing fronts and slipping rears and all…

Different riders have individual tolerances/abilities for braking, turning and visual skills. All of these skills take execution time, and it's those variances in individual times per rider that is the definition of "get back to the throttle as soon as possible". For some riders, it’s at the turn in point, for others… it’s the apex and for many more riders, it’s somewhere in the middle.

And...
It's fairly common for I/A group riders to trail brake deep in the corners on the track and especially while racing.
ASAP != Apex

Last futzed with by csmith12; November 23rd, 2015 at 04:27 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 06:17 PM   #163
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On any given corner; is the apex the same location for a point and squirt litre bike and a 250?
To me the apex is where I kiss the curb at the centre of my parabolic arc. Not necessarily a parabolic arc that is bilaterally symmetrical. In fact; mid corner it may be a steady radius for several degrees of arc.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:32 PM   #164
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Are the apexes the same for all bikes and riders? No, the lines, apexes and other points are not always the same between bike classes, although some riders do not alter their lines much when riding different class bikes.

For example; when riding the 250, I cut away as much track as I can. My lines do not always follow outside->inside->outside and I will apex a couple of bike lengths earlier in many corners and just hold a tighter line as the 250's power will not throw me so far to the outside on exit. I use that and the tracks layout to exit a corner in a way that better sets me up to carry more speed into the next corner. On the r6, the apexes are more tailored to "exit speed ruling" vs the 250's apex tailored to carrying speed through the corner.

I will do up a post on "exit speed rules" sometime later. It's a drill we do at Mid-Ohio to help riders stop turning in too early and apex later, improve their throttle control and stop swooping all over the track when they don't need to like a squirrel on bath salts.

Click Here for more info.

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Old November 24th, 2015, 09:31 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Click Here for more info.
LOL! The gauntlet has been dropped!
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Old November 24th, 2015, 10:55 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
...........Not explicitly covered in TOTW2 (brief mention)
Scenario 2: Trail Braking... If the rider has not arrived at the corner entry speed at the turn in point, the steering input AND the remaining braking must be completed before a throttle roll can begin.
.......
And...
It's fairly common for I/A group riders to trail brake deep in the corners on the track and especially while racing.
ASAP != Apex
Thanks, Chris; very interesting to me.
Please, correct my believes here.

What I don't get is the reason or motive for the stretched trail braking (as far as to the apex) that I see in many races.
Maybe a racing strategy to block passing?
:dunno:

If I understand it correctly, trail braking is a smooth transfer of loads on the front contact patch: easing on the load imposed by the front brake while the centrifugal load and lean angle grows higher, keeping the front suspension from bouncing up and the steering lighter.

If all that is true, then a stretched trail braking would be in conflict with the benefits of the "quick flick" technique, also explained in "ATOTW2", which are reducing lean angle and time that the bike is remaining leaned.

Rather than making the line/circle of the turn as broad as possible, the parabolic trajectory explained by SLOWn60 above, and the subsequent excessive lean angle around the apex, will be the result.
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File Type: jpg Trail brake vs Quick flick.jpg (35.9 KB, 3 views)
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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:31 AM   #167
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@Motofool; What drawing program are you using to sketch with? I want to do a few quick drawings with trajectory lines but AutoCad is way too much of a pain at least for me!
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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:36 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by SLOWn60 View Post
@Motofool; What drawing program are you using to sketch with? I want to do a few quick drawings with trajectory lines but AutoCad is way too much of a pain at least for me!
I do those with Windows Paint.
It is a little primitive, but gets the ideas across.

If you keep pressing the Shift key, the ellipses become circles and the lines become horizontal or vertical.

Then, using the transparent selection, you can move shapes around and superpose those.

For trajectory lines, use the spline option.

Save the file to your computer and use the attachment option at top of the post window, keeping the size within the tolerance of this website.

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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:39 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
I do those with Windows Paint.
It is a little primitive, but gets the ideas across.

If you keep pressing the Shift key, the ellipses become circles and the lines become horizontal or vertical.

Then, using the transparent selection, you can move shapes around and superpose those.
LOL! So that's what that program is for! It's sat there on my menu unused for years!
Thanks!
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Old November 24th, 2015, 01:17 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
If I understand it correctly, trail braking is a smooth transfer of loads on the front contact patch: easing on the load imposed by the front brake while the centrifugal load and lean angle grows higher, keeping the front suspension from bouncing up and the steering lighter.

If all that is true, then a stretched trail braking would be in conflict with the benefits of the "quick flick" technique, also explained in "ATOTW2", which are reducing lean angle and time that the bike is remaining leaned.

Rather than making the line/circle of the turn as broad as possible, the parabolic trajectory explained by SLOWn60 above, and the subsequent excessive lean angle around the apex, will be the result.
Yep, Awesome!!!! You're connecting some dots and skills found in the materials. Trail braking is a useful tool when you need it and can hurt you when you don't. It allows a hotter than normal entry to a corner to help prevent a last second pass, a possible solution when you slightly overcook a corner, ect.. ect.. And yes, it does conflict with some of the benefits of the quick flick. Since trail braking normally results in an inside line, you're leaned over farther + longer AND with less throttle throughout the coner. Exactly as you predicted in your diagram.

That is the beauty of roads and tracks though, not all corners are the same, it makes 0 sense to quick flick many corners such as a long sweeper. Hence a controllable amount of trail braking would play a role in how the "preferred" line around a the corners of a track is presented by coaches.

Have a look at some of the tracks that have a "bus stop" corner. The crash statistics are high in those corners. Why? I would bet my left arm that trail braking errors are a big factor in a very large percentage of the crashes in those corners. (turning in too early and lazy steering being high percentages too) Many very sharp corners are better suited to a quick flick vs a deep trail but many riders push the limits of the bike and themselves in search of faster lap times. The secret sauce is in the timing, you have to be off the brakes and back on the throttle before the load on the front is too much for the front contact patch to bear or the rear is too unweighted for the patch to hold as cornering forces increase.

Also, the red line in your image depicts a classic rider error and very applicable to both questions just asked. Can you spot what it is?
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Old November 24th, 2015, 05:40 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
........ The secret sauce is in the timing, you have to be off the brakes and back on the throttle before the load on the front is too much for the front contact patch to bear or the rear is too unweighted for the patch to hold as cornering forces increase.
As always, an excellent response from you, Chris.



Translating that into my world: street riding, I would say that there are many good opportunities for applying quick-flick, and maybe a minimal, if not zero situations, to deep or stretched trail-brake.

It is great that you mention timing.
A smooth transition from brake to throttle, the type that keeps the front suspension compressed, requires that the rider takes at least one second to release the brake lever while simultaneously feeding the engine with gas, which is technically trail braking.

The MSF teaching for basic turning is as effective as safe for street riding:
* For sequence: Slow-Look-Press (Lean)-Roll (Accelerate)
* For turn-in points: Wide and late (delayed apex), for max visibility and time to react to hidden/sudden dangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
........ Also, the red line in your image depicts a classic rider error and very applicable to both questions just asked. Can you spot what it is?
I would say that the error is early turn-in point or heading for the curb too soon or not wide enough, which induces a wide running during exit.

Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify my question.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cornering strategies.jpg (40.2 KB, 8 views)
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Old November 24th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
I would say that the error is early turn-in point or heading for the curb too soon or not wide enough, which induces a wide running during exit.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 01:28 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Yep, Awesome!!!! You're connecting some dots and skills found in the materials. Trail braking is a useful tool when you need it and can hurt you when you don't. It allows a hotter than normal entry to a corner to help prevent a last second pass, a possible solution when you slightly overcook a corner, ect.. ect.. And yes, it does conflict with some of the benefits of the quick flick. Since trail braking normally results in an inside line, you're leaned over farther + longer AND with less throttle throughout the coner. Exactly as you predicted in your diagram.

That is the beauty of roads and tracks though, not all corners are the same, it makes 0 sense to quick flick many corners such as a long sweeper. Hence a controllable amount of trail braking would play a role in how the "preferred" line around a the corners of a track is presented by coaches.

Have a look at some of the tracks that have a "bus stop" corner. The crash statistics are high in those corners. Why? I would bet my left arm that trail braking errors are a big factor in a very large percentage of the crashes in those corners. (turning in too early and lazy steering being high percentages too) Many very sharp corners are better suited to a quick flick vs a deep trail but many riders push the limits of the bike and themselves in search of faster lap times. The secret sauce is in the timing, you have to be off the brakes and back on the throttle before the load on the front is too much for the front contact patch to bear or the rear is too unweighted for the patch to hold as cornering forces increase.

Also, the red line in your image depicts a classic rider error and very applicable to both questions just asked. Can you spot what it is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Love it. This is a great thread with lots of useful information. I think that people get caught up in trying to have a rule to follow for every corner and every situation so they think it's either got to be ONE way or the OTHER. You either trailbrake in every corner all the time or you don't and like you outline above there are different solutions to different corners and different situations.
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