November 20th, 2015, 04:48 AM | #81 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Welcome Patrick, good to see a specialist for springs entered the forum
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November 21st, 2015, 08:58 PM | #82 |
Slower than you.
Name: toEleven
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I have no idea how this relates to springs or transmissions, but you've made me glad I'm single. I usually have to go to work, where most of my team is either divorced or on marriage 2 or 3, for that.
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November 23rd, 2015, 10:19 PM | #83 | |
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Will the 92081-112 spring be stiffer in a 2009 250? The spring is longer than stock....
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November 24th, 2015, 06:41 AM | #84 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Patrick
Location: NC
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Quote:
That's not true. If we cut a spring in half, we reduce the number of active coils. Recall, spring rate goes by... where... R = Spring constant G = Modulus of shear N/mm2 d4 = wire thickness to the power of 4 D3 = Outside diameter to the power of 3 n = active coils .. as n gets smaller, k (what they call R here) gets larger. This makes sense intuitively if we think about breaking a pencil. Pencils flex a little, but if you break them, you've got less leverage on the shorter piece, and it appears 'stiffer'. A coil spring is just a torsional load applied to a rod, and we can treat it to the same. Longer is easier to flex, shorter... not so much. So again... we really need to find out what the spring constant is for all of these springs, as well as the compression lengths at min and max deflection. At that point, it's easy to find a cheap solution. Last futzed with by Kestrel; November 24th, 2015 at 01:44 PM. |
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November 24th, 2015, 06:51 AM | #85 | |
in your machine
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Quote:
But I haven't verified this, as I don't have access to a NewGen.
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November 24th, 2015, 06:54 AM | #86 | |
in your machine
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Quote:
As I've stated, the difference is noticeable with the upgrade OEM spring over the PreGen Ninjette OEM, but not as stiff as the Blue Magic Spring, and it's a lot cheaper. I've tried both, and in the end I went with the upgrade OEM spring, as the Blue Magic Spring was a bit too stiff for street use IMHO.
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November 24th, 2015, 07:07 AM | #87 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Patrick
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November 24th, 2015, 07:25 AM | #88 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
Location: Hutto, TX
Join Date: Feb 2009 Motorcycle(s): '07 ZX6R, '08 Versys, '09 250R Track, '93 F2/F3 Track Posts: A lot.
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The comparison we need is factory new gen vs OEM upgrade spring, did anyone get those two side by side. I have the factory pro in my track bike but refuse to spend another $40 on a spring lol.
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November 24th, 2015, 07:25 AM | #89 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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I suppose I need to just pick up one of these OEM upgrade springs on my next order and measure the free length, wire thickness, and# coils or somebody send Patrick the all the springs so he can test them and finalize the rates and put it all to bed lol.
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November 24th, 2015, 12:00 PM | #90 | |
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November 24th, 2015, 12:02 PM | #91 | |
Board Member
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Quote:
FYI, my stock new-gen spring only has 10,000 miles on it. |
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November 24th, 2015, 01:15 PM | #92 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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Quote:
also if you could do a subjective "which feels stiffer" mostly wondering if the OEM upgrade spring is between the newgen and the factory pro of if the OEM upgrade is between pre and newgen
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November 24th, 2015, 01:16 PM | #93 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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assuming both springs have the same rate, the spring with the longer free length will have greater preload and provide a resultant force that is greater for that specific installed length yes
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November 24th, 2015, 01:49 PM | #94 | ||
ninjette.org member
Name: Patrick
Location: NC
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Ultimately, we need to figure out a few things... 1)What is the distance from the shift star thing to the top of the bolt / cap, once everything is bolted down into place in the engine 2)What are the spring rates for each of the springs The # of coils and all of the other information doesn't really matter in practice. Once you know those two things, it's simple to solve for the rest with good old F=KX. |
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November 24th, 2015, 01:50 PM | #95 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
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I would like to know the difference as well for NewGen Vs Blue Magic.
The OEM upgrade spring is used in a lot of models, for a lot of years. I'd be curious to seem the difference between the OEM upgrade spring 92081-112, and the NewGen spring 92144-1580. Which according to Kawasaki it fits PreGen and NewGen models.
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November 24th, 2015, 03:32 PM | #96 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
Location: Hutto, TX
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Quote:
In asking for the specific geometry of the springs measured, one would be making the assumption (this one being my assumption) that the material selected for the two OEM springs would be similar and as a result have a similar modulus. In the end if calculating the different rate assuming similar (same) modulus provides one spring is X amount stiffer than the other, we gut check with the requested "feel" test of stiffness. I did for the record recommend sending them to you to just test the dang rates lol.
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November 24th, 2015, 08:35 PM | #97 | |
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November 25th, 2015, 01:11 PM | #98 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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If you don't mind I think it would be great if we could get them all rate tested side by side but if not, no sweat.
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January 10th, 2016, 10:16 PM | #99 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: TC
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I put in my blue spring 'upgrade' today.
First impression is that gear changes required more foot effort. Previously I could gently nudge the bike into gear from neutral. With the blue spring installed it took more downward pressure. Definitely felt different from OEM, so I checked chain tension (which can also cause shifting issues) and it was a tad loose. Tightened chain to spec and went for a ride. With the blue spring -- shifting requires more force on the shift lever to change gears. I can see how an extremely worn old track bike might go into neutral when shifting from first to second with your primary focus on the line you're about to take through the first turn. I've done it a few times myself when my focus was moreso on maintaining (too much) speed into a turn. The blue spring is a more conscious effort to shift. Apart from that, no change. Bike is around 30k miles, relatively new chain and sprockets. I said I'd post a review once I installed it so here it is.
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January 10th, 2016, 10:19 PM | #100 |
Slower than you.
Name: toEleven
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So it's not magic then? Bummer. Thank you for the review.
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January 11th, 2016, 12:40 AM | #101 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Ray
Location: 48162
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The new spring is no different than learning something new, once you get some time under your belt with it, you'll be accustomed to it and will no longer think about the effort it takes.
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January 11th, 2016, 06:13 AM | #102 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Andrew
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Quote:
None of the tracks I race on require me to be in 1st gear for more than 2 seconds, after that the lowest I would ever see was maybe 3rd. My false neutrals were happening most between 4th and 5th, on an engine with less than 4k miles. The blue spring fixed.
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January 11th, 2016, 12:17 PM | #103 | |
Board Member
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January 12th, 2016, 05:53 AM | #104 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Timm
Location: West Seneca, NY
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Quote:
What you are really doing with a spring is you are twisting it along the lengthwise axis of the wire. A spring is just a torsion bar in coiled form. To demonstrate this to yourself, take a 3ft piece pf 1/8" by 1" aluminum flat stock and clamp one end in a vise. Then take an adjustable wrench, tighten it down on the other end, and then apply force to twist the aluminum in the lengthwise axis. Note the feel of how much force that you have to apply for a given distance. Now cut the aluminum in half and repeat the process with the wrench. You will find that you have to apply more force to get the aluminum to twist the same distance. If you want to increase the spring rate of your stock shift detent spring it may be possible to do it by simply cutting a few coils off the stock spring, Making sure that the cut end is flat and perpendicular as possible to the spring's lengthwise axis. Then you replace the distance that you cut off with a spacer of a length equal to the amount of spring that you cut off. and you now have a stiffer spring. The caveat is that you must make sure that you don't cut too much off the spring and run into coil bind. |
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