Copyright Math

[Alex]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[CynicalC]

Think of the starving artists!

[FrugalNinja250]

Despite being a person currently the victim of copyright infringement I can find his act pretty funny, but that's what comedians are supposed to be good at.

With my stolen work it isn't about the money, it's about the right to control my intellectual property. I had a rather extensive technical article posted on a forum. I didn't charge for that work, but did retain copyright on it. After several years that forum became a place I no longer wanted my work associated with, a rather vile, filthy, nasty place in fact. So, as is my right, I deleted that article from that forum. Since then I've had to issue several DCMA takedown notices to the owner of that forum because other members have been reposting the article, and so far he's honored them, though he doesn't seem to have any interest in banning the people committing the crime. Just tonight I had to send out three more DCMA takedown notices to that forum, hopefully he complies with them as well.

Yes, the video was pretty funny, and yes, I can see how the entertainment industry exaggerates their numbers, but it in no way invalidates the concept that property owners have the right to control their property, whether it be a car, a home, or a song, or in my case, a written article with over one hundred photographs that it took me four months to research, compose, edit, photograph, photoshop, and finalize into a finished product. My product. I've got over 100 hours into the creation of that article, and I have the legal *right* to do with it what I choose, funny video or otherwise.

Edit to add a couple of things: First, I have a couple of friends who are published authors, in fact their very livelyhood depends on people purchasing their books. They both sell well enough to afford modest homes and reliable cars, and that's a good thing IMHO. However, they spend a bunch of money and time dealing with copyright thieves and both have reason to believe that theft is reducing their sales. Stuff like book sales dropping off whenever a new rip shows up in their search software (yes, they have special software whose only job is to search the web continuously looking for rips). It sucks they have devote the time, money, and legal expenses to this but theft is apparently the new normal in our society. Secondly, my own experience has me not really wanting to invest much time in doing in-depth work like I've done in the past. Why do it when someone else can decide that they, not me, have the right to control my work product. I'm sorry, I don't do other people's work for free. For better or worse I contribute just a fraction of what I used to do in the technical world.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

I had a rather extensive technical article posted on a forum. I didn't charge for that work, but did retain copyright on it. After several years that forum became a place I no longer wanted my work associated with, a rather vile, filthy, nasty place in fact. So, as is my right, I deleted that article from that forum.

I have to know what this is about.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Despite being a person currently the victim of copyright infringement I can find his act pretty funny, but that's what comedians are supposed to be good at.

With my stolen work it isn't about the money, it's about the right to control my intellectual property. I had a rather extensive technical article posted on a forum. I didn't charge for that work, but did retain copyright on it. After several years that forum became a place I no longer wanted my work associated with, a rather vile, filthy, nasty place in fact. So, as is my right, I deleted that article from that forum. Since then I've had to issue several DCMA takedown notices to the owner of that forum because other members have been reposting the article, and so far he's honored them, though he doesn't seem to have any interest in banning the people committing the crime. Just tonight I had to send out three more DCMA takedown notices to that forum, hopefully he complies with them as well.

Yes, the video was pretty funny, and yes, I can see how the entertainment industry exaggerates their numbers, but it in no way invalidates the concept that property owners have the right to control their property, whether it be a car, a home, or a song, or in my case, a written article with over one hundred photographs that it took me four months to research, compose, edit, photograph, photoshop, and finalize into a finished product. My product. I've got over 100 hours into the creation of that article, and I have the legal *right* to do with it what I choose, funny video or otherwise.

Edit to add a couple of things: First, I have a couple of friends who are published authors, in fact their very livelyhood depends on people purchasing their books. They both sell well enough to afford modest homes and reliable cars, and that's a good thing IMHO. However, they spend a bunch of money and time dealing with copyright thieves and both have reason to believe that theft is reducing their sales. Stuff like book sales dropping off whenever a new rip shows up in their search software (yes, they have special software whose only job is to search the web continuously looking for rips). It sucks they have devote the time, money, and legal expenses to this but theft is apparently the new normal in our society. Secondly, my own experience has me not really wanting to invest much time in doing in-depth work like I've done in the past. Why do it when someone else can decide that they, not me, have the right to control my work product. I'm sorry, I don't do other people's work for free. For better or worse I contribute just a fraction of what I used to do in the technical world.

Concept of property is at a first glance simple and true. But it does have one major flaw; it begins with taking, not paying for.
Intellectual property suffers a lot in all that because it is much easier to take compared to something physically cumbersome.

Few weeks ago someone mentioned ITER project here on the forum. Apart from being interesting from an engineering point of view, it is extremely interesting in social/political view. Safe and clean energy, available and affordable to everyone.
How will our property oriented world react to that? Will it result in even larger separation between rich and the poor, or will it lead to an almost perfect Star Trek like society, in which money and property do not have a use?

[FrugalNinja250]

Well, I just found out that the owner/moderator of the forum hosting my stolen work has decided to leave it in place and thumbed his nose at me. He and the servers are hosted in the Netherlands and he claims that local laws protect him in this case, though the Netherlands is a signatory to various international copyright treaties and laws. I'm now at the point of having to decide, can I afford to hire an international lawyer to go after this slimeball? It could conceivably cost tens of thousands of dollars to win my case, and I just don't have it.

It looks like basically he's and his cohorts are going to get clean away with stealing my property and there's nothing I can do about it.

I've decided that from now on I will never create another technical article anywhere, on any subject, not even here. It's just not worth it to invest the time and effort just so someone else can steal it.

Because that article brings his website up on the first page of Google when people search for the subject the article was written to address, and because the forum owner has banner ads, he actually makes money off my work, without my permission and without me seeing a dime of it.

For those that don't really see the issue with stealing copyrighted work, see the effect it has now, here, in front of your very eyes.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Well, I just found out that the owner/moderator of the forum hosting my stolen work has decided to leave it in place and thumbed his nose at me. He and the servers are hosted in the Netherlands and he claims that local laws protect him in this case, though the Netherlands is a signatory to various international copyright treaties and laws. I'm now at the point of having to decide, can I afford to hire an international lawyer to go after this slimeball? It could conceivably cost tens of thousands of dollars to win my case, and I just don't have it.

It looks like basically he's and his cohorts are going to get clean away with stealing my property and there's nothing I can do about it.

I've decided that from now on I will never create another technical article anywhere, on any subject, not even here. It's just not worth it to invest the time and effort just so someone else can steal it.

Because that article brings his website up on the first page of Google when people search for the subject the article was written to address, and because the forum owner has banner ads, he actually makes money off my work, without my permission and without me seeing a dime of it.

For those that don't really see the issue with stealing copyrighted work, see the effect it has now, here, in front of your very eyes.

I don't know the law but common sense tells me that once you put something on the Internet for free, it basically becomes public domain. It seems like you're just being butthurt for no good reason...

[Jiggles]

so post it here and then this site will come up first and Alex can pocket all your monies

[Jono]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

I don't know the law but common sense tells me that once you put something on the Internet for free, it basically becomes public domain. It seems like you're just being butthurt for no good reason...

Yeah. That is what I am thinking as well. Once you put something on the internet it is there for everyone to see and steal.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Jono

Yeah. That is what I am thinking as well. Once you put something on the internet it is there for everyone to see and steal.

If you were capable of creating something worth stealing perhaps you would understand. Until then, if ever, it's apparant you can't. But that's fine, it takes all kinds to fill the world.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

If you were capable of creating something worth stealing perhaps you would understand. Until then, if ever, it's apparant you can't. But that's fine, it takes all kinds to fill the world.

Why would I need to be creative when there are people like you giving away their creative ideas for free. I can just steal your ideas.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

If you were capable of creating something worth stealing perhaps you would understand. Until then, if ever, it's apparant you can't. But that's fine, it takes all kinds to fill the world.

Sounds to me like this is the one single thing that you've done in your life to be proud of and you're struggling to maintain control of it because you know it'll likely never happen again. You're right, it takes all types.

[Alex]

I thought the talk was funny, as well as clearly pointing out why the math used by the RIAA and MPAA doesn't pass anyone's smell test. Well, I guess it depends on what smell they're looking for.

But jumping to the more serious topic, what were the terms of service on the forum that your technical article was posted on? Here's what has always been in place here, for example:

6.3. Any content posted to ninjette.org immediately becomes the property of ninjette.org and is therefore protected by ninjette.org copyright. ninjette.org reserves the right to use any content posted for other purposes. ninjette.org will make reasonable efforts to contact the originator of content it wishes to reuse and acknowledge their submission when possible. ninjette.org recognizes the copyrights of others and will remove any copyrighted material if requested to do so by the owner of said copyright.

That's the click-through. Not because I have any interest in stealing someone's work and selling it. But because I also don't want to have to deal with someone claiming copyright on something they freely composed and loaded here, and changed their minds about 2 years from now.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by Alex

Here's what has always been in place here, for example:

Hey did you write that disclaimer? I'm pretty sure I've seen it on other forums too. I'll go ahead and start issuing takedown notices for you.

Originally Posted by Alex

I don't want to have to deal with someone claiming copyright on something they freely composed and loaded here, and changed their minds about 2 years from now.

You MONSTER.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Hey did you write that disclaimer? I'm pretty sure I've seen it on other forums too. I'll go ahead and start issuing takedown notices for you.

Oh yeah, I'll issue takedown notices for your mom.

[CynicalC]

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

I thought the talk was funny, as well as clearly pointing out why the math used by the RIAA and MPAA doesn't pass anyone's smell test. Well, I guess it depends on what smell they're looking for.

But jumping to the more serious topic, what were the terms of service on the forum that your technical article was posted on? Here's what has always been in place here, for example:

When i deleted the article off that forum last year i read the TOS, it had the usual stuff aboud being respectful, etc. It did not claim ownership of all works posted there. When the first infringing posts were made a few months ago the forum owner honored my takedown requests. I checked today and the TOS has been ammended to claim outright ownership and irrevokable copyright transfer to him and complete freedom to edit anything posted on the forum. In any case my work product was deleted completely from his website. The person posting my article to that website is a third party to which I have never granted permission to post my words anywhere. What that person has done is pure copyright theft, and the forum owner is ignoring my legitimate request to remove infringing material from his site.

The motivation I think is that my article is about a common problem and a search for that problem on google returns his webpage as the first or second hit on the first page. I assume he gets revenue from the banner ads on his site, so it's to his benefit to drum up all the traffic he can.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Jono

Yeah. That is what I am thinking as well. Once you put something on the internet it is there for everyone to see and steal.

You would be mistaken in that belief. It's like you're saying that if you find an unlocked door ypu're entitled to whatever's behind because of the fact it was so easy to go inside. Copyright law is fairly clear on the actual ownership and transfer rules, has been since the late 1800's and refined ever since.

There are some things about it that I disagree with, such as the time to expiration, but for the most part I feel it's legitimate. I also disagree with the way so-called losses are calculated, bit that has no bearing on the underlying ownership rights issues.

And stealing is stealing, no matter how one would like to justify it as being ok for you.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

You would be mistaken in that belief. It's like you're saying that if you find an unlocked door ypu're entitled to whatever's behind because of the fact it was so easy to go inside. Copyright law is fairly clear on the actual ownership and transfer rules, has been since the late 1800's and refined ever since.

There are some things about it that I disagree with, such as the time to expiration, but for the most part I feel it's legitimate. I also disagree with the way so-called losses are calculated, bit that has no bearing on the underlying ownership rights issues.

And stealing is stealing, no matter how one would like to justify it as being ok for you.

It's not stealing if you gave it away for free, dummy. You posted it on a free and open forum, it became property of the internet. You're not allowed to turn around two years later and say "Oh well I want it back now." That's retarded. I'm going to track down this article and the forum in question, and click on his ads every day for the next year and make him as much money as I can.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

It's not stealing if you gave it away for free, dummy. You posted it on a free and open forum, it became property of the internet. You're not allowed to turn around two years later and say "Oh well I want it back now." That's retarded. I'm going to track down this article and the forum in question, and click on his ads every day for the next year and make him as much money as I can.

thats ad fraud, google might track that and he might lose money!

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

It's not stealing if you gave it away for free, dummy. You posted it on a free and open forum, it became property of the internet. You're not allowed to turn around two years later and say "Oh well I want it back now." That's retarded. I'm going to track down this article and the forum in question, and click on his ads every day for the next year and make him as much money as I can.

There is a difference between being cynical and being simply rude.

I agree with what you're saying though.

@FrugalNinja250 , you are beginning to sound like a wannabe celebrity in a desperate need for attention.

Anyway, there is joy in giving. There is value in it too. Perhaps the article has helped someone and, apart from making money for someone else, it is still helping people. Take comfort in that.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

There is a difference between being cynical and being simply rude.

I agree with what you're saying though.

@FrugalNinja250 , you are beginning to sound like a wannabe celebrity in a desperate need for attention.

Anyway, there is joy in giving. There is value in it too. Perhaps the article has helped someone and, apart from making money for someone else, it is still helping people. Take comfort in that.

It certainly is easy to tell the thieves from the honest folk on the internet. You know it's bad when the thieves brag about it openly.

Edit to add: in this case it's not about fame or fortune. It's about me not wanting my work to be associated with that forum because they've become a fairly nasty bunch of folks. I've never been about the celebrity bit, just not my style.

[FrugalNinja250]

Hey Alex, can you go ahead and repost all of kkim's stuff? I remember seeing some of it but he deleted it before I started riding full time and developed a need for his articles.

I'm sure most would agree that would be a good thing.

Thanks!

[Alex]

That's actually a good example. Kkim didn't delete anything here, he deleted pics that were stored elsewhere. We in fact did rebuild what we could with pics that people had downloaded earlier, replacement pics that other people took, and in some cases with replaced/changed entire DIY's with necessary updates anyway. He never claimed copyright before posting any and all of this, so the site (i.e. Me) was well within its own TOS to maintain the threads as we saw fit.

[FrugalNinja250]

.double post,

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

That's actually a good example. Kkim didn't delete anything here, he deleted pics that were stored elsewhere. We in fact did rebuild what we could with pics that people had downloaded earlier, replacement pics that other people took, and in some cases with replaced/changed entire DIY's with necessary updates anyway. He never claimed copyright before posting any and all of this, so the site (i.e. Me) was well within its own TOS to maintain the threads as we saw fit.

In my case I deleted all pictures and text. My article had a copyright notice on it. The person who reposted the article stripped the copyright notice from the article before posting it on the forum, but left my name attached as author. The forum owner is claiming retroactive copyright on my words and photographs posted onto his forum by a third party who did not have any copyright on my work product. He clearly has broken the laws of his country and various treaties his country signed with ours going all the way back to the Berne Convention, which his country joined in 1912 and ours in 1989.

The person who posted the infringing material is a US resident so I have a solid case against him, but the forum owner won't divulge the offender's identity. I would have to retain an attorney in that country to get a subpoena, but that's just not affordable. He knows it, and is depending on that to get away with the crime. Another case where the bad guys win through superior resources.

[Alex]

So what have you learned from this, other than what CynicalC posted above? I.E. - don't post things in the open to public forums that you may choose to monetize or want to erase later. If it's your livelihood, find a way to sell your works in a way that works financially. If it's not your livelihood, and you just want to have some illusion of control of text you put on the internet, well, good luck with that. It's not even a bad guy vs. good guy thing anymore. It's a realist vs. luddite when it comes to the likely outcome of what the technology implies.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

So what have you learned from this, other than what CynicalC posted above? I.E. - don't post things in the open to public forums that you may choose to monetize or want to erase later. If it's your livelihood, find a way to sell your works in a way that works financially. If it's not your livelihood, and you just want to have some illusion of control of text you put on the internet, well, good luck with that. It's not even a bad guy vs. good guy thing anymore. It's a realist vs. luddite when it comes to the likely outcome of what the technology implies.

I don't know what cyclec posts, I blocked him a long, long time ago for being an ass.

Basically it boils down to some people believing in a system of laws and other people believing that the system of laws don't apply to them. I fall on the side of believing in a system of laws because that's the fundamental structure that any society requires to function. Somalia is a perfect example of a country with no functioning system of laws, that's why piracy is that nations number one product and the primary source of the meager GDP that they have.

Copyright law is considered so important to any society that the writers of our very own Constitution put in a clause back in 1787: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause

[CynicalC]

Keep pretending you're not reading my posts. You're thrilled to be getting all this attention.

As or having a "strong case" against a guy posting what you gave him for free, nobody here is buying this ****, and if you believe it yourself, you are certifiably delusional.

[gfloyd2002]

If this is tl;dr, skip to the bold.

Don't mean to start/continue a fracas that began with an amusing video, but merely because you post something online does not mean you lose your rights to that material. The author of material (if it qualifies for protection) owns the content - publishing it, even for free, doesn't take that away. You have the right to put things where you want, and have the right to control their future use or republication subject to some limitations. In fact, one of the requirements before you can gain a copyright is that the writing has to be fixed in some way - on paper or posted online meets that requirement. The issue of whether posting something online makes it "public domain" and not subject to protection looks to me to be well settled against.

The problem for the poster on forums is that usually the material doesn't otherwise qualify for protection. It needs to be original expression and meet the minimal creativity standard. (You don't need to register copyright to get protections, by the way. Registration just avoids any argument later about who may have published/fixed their thoughts first and provides legal presumptions allowing easier enforcement.) Putting up a DIY probably isn't going to cut it.

Another hurdle that an online poster claiming copyright will have to overcome (in addition to proving originality and creative content) is an implied license granted upon posting. If the material is copyrightable, when you post in a forum, you do so with the implied permission for the forum owner to use that information - put the material up, link it, search it, move it, etc. - within general understanding of how posting will be used. Even if someone is able to show protected original/creative content, this implied license is going to kill most claims by forum posters. And even then - if use is beyond implied license, it could still be fair use and the forum poster is still out of luck. That allows much use of copyrighted material not for profit, particularly if the use doesn't have a significant financial impact on the copyright holder.

And even in the very unlikely event that someone gets past all those hurdles and still wants to claim copyright protection for forum posts, the final hurdle is if, like on Ninjette, the site includes terms of service denying rights to posters. The answer there is more complicated. Sometimes buried terms of use are found to be unenforceable, particularly those that expressly deny rights generally granted by law. It is going to depend on the jurisdiction and the facts of each case, but I wouldn't bet on the terms being upheld in most cases. It is just that it wouldn't usually get to this - the forum owner is going to be protected by the implied license to use the information or by fair use, and the material is probably not protected as unique in the first place.

So, a forum poster claiming copyright protection is going to be in trouble. Lots of hurdles to overcome (originality, creative, use in excess of implied license granted by posting, fair use regardless of copyright, and whether terms of service are unenforceable.) Given the long legal road ahead of poster claiming copyright holder and the little monetary value to most forum posts, the issue is moot. Just not worth the cost of uphill battle for most, thus not usually an issue. Regardless, terms of service like Alex has seem like a great idea as adding an additional barrier to already tough road for someone claiming IP rights over posts. Just noting that the issue isn't one of basic lack of rights by someone who posts truly protected information online. Its just that practically, it doesn't matter.

[Alex]

I've decided to publish and sell the complete post works of @gfloyd2002, and spend the proceeds on women, booze, and gambling. The rest I'll just squander.

(btw, great post, G!)

[TBC]

Floyd - I'm fairly certain that posting something online does not make it the public domain (similar to how posting something in a physical public forum does not), and the "minimal creative standard" is very minimal. I'm not an IP expert by any means, but that seems to swing the pendulum far more towards the poster. The implied license is trickier - does publishing to a forum mean that you give the forum license to republish the content? Is that limited to their server? To any given country? To any given user? What if the forum owner owns related forums? The ephemeral nature of the Internet and its users makes that line very fuzzy. Having terms of use transferring copyright is something I seriously doubt as well.

All of that being said - in my mind, the copyright of a forum posting (if such a copyright would exist) is very likely in the hands of the poster. Nevertheless, enforcement of such a copyright is practically null. Even with a registration with the copyright office and an absolute fixed medium, you can't even get many major websites (Flickr, Tumblr, Facebook) to take down copyrighted material without major hassle.

Originally Posted by CynicalC

I don't know the law but common sense tells me that once you put something on the Internet for free, it basically becomes public domain. It seems like you're just being butthurt for no good reason...

From my understand that's not what the public domain is. An analogy would be providing a book you wrote to a library ("for free") and then having someone else take your book, republish it, and earn thousands of dollars from it. Just because it's easier doesn't make it less illegal (if you have a more powerful bike does that mean your speeding ticket is going to be less? ).

Originally Posted by Alex

But jumping to the more serious topic, what were the terms of service on the forum that your technical article was posted on? Here's what has always been in place here, for example:

That's the click-through. Not because I have any interest in stealing someone's work and selling it. But because I also don't want to have to deal with someone claiming copyright on something they freely composed and loaded here, and changed their minds about 2 years from now.

Legally, I'm fairly certain you can't claim copyright with a click-through TOS agreement. From my understanding, you need a contract on paper and signed by the original copyright holder that explicitly states the copyright is being transferred (and/or the holder is completing the work as a work for hire). But then again, IANAL .


The video is far more focused on the fact that copyright "damages" are absurdly overblown, rather than on how the Internet has changed the form of copyright. And for that, it's right on the mark . Thanks for sharing, and sorry if I'm continuing the aforementioned "fracas," I just wanted to share my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Alex

I've decided to publish and sell the complete post works of @gfloyd2002, and spend the proceeds on women, booze, and gambling. The rest I'll just squander.

As long as it's going towards a good cause .

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by TBC

Floyd - I'm fairly certain that posting something online does not make it the public domain (similar to how posting something in a physical public forum does not)

I agree, and said that the point has been well settled against calling something public domain. Though I confess to using confusing sentence structure.

And for the record, I'm also in favor of proceeds of ninjette postings being used on beer and babes, but request I be invited to the party.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by TBC

Legally, I'm fairly certain you can't claim copyright with a click-through TOS agreement. From my understanding, you need a contract on paper and signed by the original copyright holder that explicitly states the copyright is being transferred (and/or the holder is completing the work as a work for hire). But then again, IANAL .

Legally, I can claim exclusive rights to the income of the user's 1st and 3rd born children, partial usage of their stadium luxury box in alternate months, and the right to pee on their back lawn on even-numbered Tuesdays.

Of course none of it really matters until I try and claim those rights, and it's the same idea from the other perspective. It doesn't matter until someone tries to say I don't have those rights, i.e. I've used their material incorrectly, or not listened to them appropriately with what they preferred done with their material. No TOS is ever going to be ironclad, it's just another speedbump along the way to make it somewhat less attractive for someone to try and push the issue.

[gfloyd2002]

I really, seriously, think you should include a TOS that grants Ninjette.org the right to someone's left testicle if they quote, in full, the person directly above them in a thread containing multiple large photos.

[Alex]

Sure, but where would we store them all?

[FrugalNinja250]

Three weeks ago i stood vigil with a friend of mine while died of cancer. He was diagnosed just last Thanksgiving. He was younger than me. A man with a creative spark I rarely see in others, he was building an ocean-going sailboat 65' long. He was realizing a lifelong dream.

While I type this my cat is dying, he just quit eating and drinking. He's barely 10. A nearly dead kitten when I found him, saved him, he grew up into a 15 pound all muscle clown, a pure joy to be around. He's 5, maybe six pounds now, will be gone in hours.

My friend was a skeleton when he died too.

Too much death.

Too much hate.

I decided to see what cynicalc had to say, with all his replies.

So much hate and incivility.

Maybe it's my grief, I dunno, but I think this whole internet forum thing has run it's course for me.

See you guys on the other side.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Three weeks ago i stood vigil with a friend of mine while died of cancer. He was diagnosed just last Thanksgiving. He was younger than me. A man with a creative spark I rarely see in others, he was building an ocean-going sailboat 65' long. He was realizing a lifelong dream.

While I type this my cat is dying, he just quit eating and drinking. He's barely 10. A nearly dead kitten when I found him, saved him, he grew up into a 15 pound all muscle clown, a pure joy to be around. He's 5, maybe six pounds now, will be gone in hours.

My friend was a skeleton when he died too.

Too much death.

Too much hate.

I decided to see what cynicalc had to say, with all his replies.

So much hate and incivility.

Maybe it's my grief, I dunno, but I think this whole internet forum thing has run it's course for me.

See you guys on the other side.

You are weird.


You think this forum has "so much hate"?????? I think this is one of the nicest and cleanest forums on the internet. But I am not a big forum user. This is the only forum I keep up with and participate in.


The only thing certain in life is death. I am surprised you are having trouble accepting this fact. We live and we die. I am sorry you are going through a tough time but I don't think you should really be telling us your personal problems. That is kinda weird. I guess I can accept death easier than you. I have lost many family members and pets growing up as a kid.

C'est la vie

[gfloyd2002]

@FrugalNinja250, I am sorry to hear of your loss. Hang in there, and don't let the little things get you down. In perspective, which terrible events tend to bring, things said in an online forum are unimportant. We look forward to having you as an active member of this community.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Jono

I am sorry you are going through a tough time but I don't think you should really be telling us your personal problems. That is kinda weird.

You find it "kinda weird" that a person who has participated in this forum for a long time found it easy to share part of his personal life with the rest of us? The only real difference between forum interaction and real life interaction is the lack of seeing someone and the ability to truly think before you post. I would go so far as to say that because forums focus solely on what people say, think, and feel, they are, in some ways better than in-person interaction because you cut out all of the bs that gets in the way.

Just because you don't feel compelled to share your life story with everyone doesn't mean it is weird for others to do so. Some people share nothing, others share everything, and I think the majority falls somewhere in between.

Sorry to hear about your rough times, Frugal. You have my condolences.