A question about Body Position

[SLOWn60]

While cornering; forward on the seat tight to the tank or slid back as far as possible? It's been bugging me for a long, long time.
Obviously; there are some good riders & instructors including @Misti contributing on this forum and I'd like to find out the consensus of what is best.

I've never tucked the front on pavement though my tire has warned me a few times. Personally; traction/speed feel better when I'm slid forward in an aggressive posture. Am I fooling myself?

[adouglas]

I don't think this is a A or B thing.

I'm sure those more advanced than me will chime in, but here's my $0.02 on forward vs. aft.

As a short guy, for a very long time I tended to ride forward at all times and never had any issues at all. It was just what felt comfortable to me. Once I started going to the track and really trying to get my body off the seat, it became apparent that this was limiting my ability to do so.

If you have a stand, try it... with the bike up on the stand, get your junk right up on the tank, stick your knee out and try to get your butt and upper body off to the "inside" of the "turn." You know, the whole kiss-the-mirror thing.

Now slide back so there's a fist-width of clear space between your crotch and the tank. Try the maneuver again.

Now, having said that... it's really not important on the street because if you're going so fast that you actually have to get your body off, you're really going too fast for the environment.

These days, since I'm riding on the track, I do slide back more even on the street simply because it helps me practice for the track.

But ergonomics is not, of course, the only thing going on. There's weight distribution.

Forward on the tank and you're loading the front more under braking. Therefore you're closer to the limits of adhesion if you're braking REALLY hard... way harder than you need to on the street, emergencies aside. If you're actually there, then the moment you take traction "points" away from braking and put them into cornering by tipping in, the front will tuck. But again, on the street, you're probably not there.

Back on the seat and you're unweighting the front... which on a powerful bike means you might wheelie more easily under power out of the turn. Looking at your list of bikes, this isn't an issue... the powerful ones are all big and heavy.

[csmith12]

.... I have got to do that video on seating position. :\ I am such a slacker.

[SLOWn60]

To clarify: my question is intended for the track; maximum, to the limit, mid-corner and exit performance.

I'm tall so it is not a problem to position myself forward or back. I'm also big so percentage wise; it is a significant shift of mass towards the front or rear tires.

For instance in Supermoto & MX; cramming yourself to the tank and extending forward your inside leg are the techniques to load up the front for cornering.

On the pavement; I was taught to set your body position, brake, turn in, set your lean angle then a slow roll-on of the throttle to transfer weight to the rear tire for better rear tire traction.

So for mid-corner and exit; is it better to keep the riders mass forward or aft to optimize loading & traction for both front & rear tires?

The "feel" i get is its better to be forward; the tires, in particular the front tire, feels more solidly hooked up mid-corner & exit. I haven't noticed a difference on rear wheel traction of a tendency to spin whether I'm forward or aft. Do maximum performance track/race results agree with my gut feel or is my brain fooling me? Should I be seated forward or aft (or mid?!?) to get maximum tire performance for mid-corner & exit?

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

To clarify: my question is intended for the track; maximum, to the limit, mid-corner and exit performance.

I'm tall so it is not a problem to position myself forward or back. I'm also big so percentage wise; it is a significant shift of mass towards the front or rear tires.

For instance in Supermoto & MX; cramming yourself to the tank and extending forward your inside leg are the techniques to load up the front for cornering.

On the pavement; I was taught to set your body position, brake, turn in, set your lean angle then a slow roll-on of the throttle to transfer weight to the rear tire for better rear tire traction.

So for mid-corner and exit; is it better to keep the riders mass forward or aft to optimize loading & traction for both front & rear tires?

The "feel" i get is its better to be forward; the tires, in particular the front tire, feels more solidly hooked up mid-corner & exit. I haven't noticed a difference on rear wheel traction of a tendency to spin whether I'm forward or aft. Do maximum performance track/race results agree with my gut feel or is my brain fooling me? Should I be seated forward or aft (or mid?!?) to get maximum tire performance for mid-corner & exit?

So that is an interesting question, and the answer really (IMHO) is it depends. It depends on the type of corner, your ergonomics, the bike your on, etc. Mostly the biggest thing is your not static on the bike really. You move your body weight around as necessary to get the bike to do what you want.

On a powerful bike, exiting the corner, you can shift your body weight forward to get weight on the front end to keep it down, shift your weight on the outside peg to drive the bike upward and pull the bike upright while loading the rear tire.

In a very squared, stop and go corner, when you are trying to get the bike on its side and then back up very very quickly, movement of your body weight will take on a different feel than an extended corner that you carry a arcing line and your on the side of the tire for a long time.

There is not really a single solution but rather that body weight, and body position are constantly manipulated to get the best from the tire.

[sharky nrk]

Interestingly immediately after posting that, I saw a quote from the Phillip Island presser from MM93 on Crash.net

Marquez has battled a lack of rear-wheel grip under braking with his Repsol Honda, plus aggressive wheelies on corner exit.

At Phillip Island on Thursday, Marquez was asked about using his body position to try and control the wheelies, as seen in the image below: .....

“Yeah this season I am working a lot on the bike,” Marquez replied. “On the brake point one [body] position, then going into the corner another one, then the mid-corner another one, then the exit another one!

Granted its MotoGP on VERY VERY difficult to ride RC213V, but the concept is the same. Your not static on the bike.

[csmith12]

Let's start with some fundamentals before going all MotoGP...

Simply put "neither".

Where your knees contact the tank tell the story. Got an extra couple of minutes? Have a seat on your bike and put your knees under the lip of the tank. Where does that put you in the saddle? Do NOT focus on the rearsets at all because your only concern right now is the length from your knee and your hip. Do not let your rearsets govern where you sit, they can be adjusted to fit your knee contact area and seating position.

Also, you should have this as a riding mantra; "keep the bike stable". Is holding yourself onto the bike using your arms helping your keep the bike stable or using your legs to anchor you?

Why do you want to be there vs all the way forward or backward? Let's find out... Say you're planning a 200 mile ride for the day. If you had to use a body part to hold yourself onto the bike for those 200 miles, would you rather use your arms or legs? Which is stronger and can take more abuse? If your legs get tired what are the risks? Now... what are the risks if your arms get tired?

So here are some key things to look for when sitting on your bike in the cornering position;

Too far forward;
Your outside knee can become disconnected from the tank = holding on with bars
Your upper body cannot clear the tank and allow for a more aggressive bp as needed per corner (kiss the mirror position)
Too much weight on front creating throttle control/weight distro issues (rear slides and skips)
Front may feel heavy and unresponsive (suspension not in mid stroke or bottomed out)
Steering inputs take more work to compensate for over bent arms
Many more….

Too far back;
Knees disconnected from tank = holding on with arms
Arms over extended to be 100% effective with inputs
Front may feel light and unresponsive (front not in mid stroke or topped out)
Many more….

And one more thing… weight distro, controlling a wheelie and rear spin up are throttle control skills, not bp skills. Sure they are subtly related, but don’t use the wrong tool for the job. And speaking of weight distro, your suspension works it’s best in the mid-stroke range. There is a balance between throttle control and bp to help or hurt you trying to keep your bike working in that area and can differ from corner to corner based on the rider, which is why this is even a question in the first place. More weight on the front = more aggressive throttle roll, less weight on the front = more finessed throttle roll to maintain weight distro. Some corners allow all out aggression, others take some real delicate work to get through really fast. This is of course rider skill and tolerance dependant.

[csmith12]

And...

Many riders overload the front on entry, then try to make it up by an aggressive throttle roll on exit. Sure it feels good, and even feels fast, but.... what is the real problem? Any clues? It's my most common error.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

And...

Many riders overload the front on entry, then try to make it up by an aggressive throttle roll on exit. Sure it feels good, and even feels fast, but.... what is the real problem? Any clues? It's my most common error.

Do you mean what's the real cause or what's the real effect? Both could be "problems."

Cause: Charging the corner.

Effect: Inability to get the bike turned, inability to get on the gas early, upsetting the suspension (smooth is fast).... all of which mean slower exit speed. I'm thinking of those shots in the TOTW2 video with Keith holding a radar gun and we see riders coming off the corner with radically different speeds.

Am I close?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Cause: Charging the corner.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Let's start with some fundamentals before going all MotoGP...

Simply put "neither".

Where your knees contact the tank tell the story. Got an extra couple of minutes? Have a seat on your bike and put your knees under the lip of the tank. Where does that put you in the saddle? Do NOT focus on the rearsets at all because your only concern right now is the length from your knee and your hip. Do not let your rearsets govern where you sit, they can be adjusted to fit your knee contact area and seating position.

Also, you should have this as a riding mantra; "keep the bike stable". Is holding yourself onto the bike using your arms helping your keep the bike stable or using your legs to anchor you?

Why do you want to be there vs all the way forward or backward? Let's find out... Say you're planning a 200 mile ride for the day. If you had to use a body part to hold yourself onto the bike for those 200 miles, would you rather use your arms or legs? Which is stronger and can take more abuse? If your legs get tired what are the risks? Now... what are the risks if your arms get tired?

So here are some key things to look for when sitting on your bike in the cornering position;

Too far forward;
Your outside knee can become disconnected from the tank = holding on with bars
Your upper body cannot clear the tank and allow for a more aggressive bp as needed per corner (kiss the mirror position)
Too much weight on front creating throttle control/weight distro issues (rear slides and skips)
Front may feel heavy and unresponsive (suspension not in mid stroke or bottomed out)
Steering inputs take more work to compensate for over bent arms
Many more….

Too far back;
Knees disconnected from tank = holding on with arms
Arms over extended to be 100% effective with inputs
Front may feel light and unresponsive (front not in mid stroke or topped out)
Many more….

And one more thing… weight distro, controlling a wheelie and rear spin up are throttle control skills, not bp skills. Sure they are subtly related, but don’t use the wrong tool for the job. And speaking of weight distro, your suspension works it’s best in the mid-stroke range. There is a balance between throttle control and bp to help or hurt you trying to keep your bike working in that area and can differ from corner to corner based on the rider, which is why this is even a question in the first place. More weight on the front = more aggressive throttle roll, less weight on the front = more finessed throttle roll to maintain weight distro. Some corners allow all out aggression, others take some real delicate work to get through really fast. This is of course rider skill and tolerance dependant.

All excellent stuff, couldn't agree more or have written it better.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

To clarify: my question is intended for the track; maximum, to the limit, mid-corner and exit performance.

I'm tall so it is not a problem to position myself forward or back. I'm also big so percentage wise; it is a significant shift of mass towards the front or rear tires.

For instance in Supermoto & MX; cramming yourself to the tank and extending forward your inside leg are the techniques to load up the front for cornering.

On the pavement; I was taught to set your body position, brake, turn in, set your lean angle then a slow roll-on of the throttle to transfer weight to the rear tire for better rear tire traction.

So for mid-corner and exit; is it better to keep the riders mass forward or aft to optimize loading & traction for both front & rear tires?

The "feel" i get is its better to be forward; the tires, in particular the front tire, feels more solidly hooked up mid-corner & exit. I haven't noticed a difference on rear wheel traction of a tendency to spin whether I'm forward or aft. Do maximum performance track/race results agree with my gut feel or is my brain fooling me? Should I be seated forward or aft (or mid?!?) to get maximum tire performance for mid-corner & exit?

Ok, so this is a slightly different question then what was first asked. Csmith12 answered the question about where to sit in regards to maintaining stability and being locked onto the bike so that you can remain relaxed with your arms. All excellent info that he posted there. Your question concerns mid corner and exit and for that we can look at it slightly differently.

You ask, "So for mid-corner and exit; is it better to keep the riders mass forward or aft to optimize loading & traction for both front & rear tires? "

we have two techniques at the Superbike School that utilize the riders body position mid corner and exit for slightly different purposes. One is the hook turn which is used to help you tighten up a corner WITHOUT adding lean angle by dropping your upper body forward and down to help the bike HOOK a tighter line.... the other, which may be a little more applicable to what you are talking about here is the pick up drill in which you counter-steer the bike back up while keeping your body forward and to the inside.

What do you think the benefit of the pick up drill might be? And how might that be applicable for mid corner exit speed and traction control?

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Misti

You ask, "So for mid-corner and exit; is it better to keep the riders mass forward or aft to optimize loading & traction for both front & rear tires? "

we have two techniques at the Superbike School that utilize the riders body position mid corner and exit for slightly different purposes. One is the hook turn which is used to help you tighten up a corner WITHOUT adding lean angle by dropping your upper body forward and down to help the bike HOOK a tighter line.... the other, which may be a little more applicable to what you are talking about here is the pick up drill in which you counter-steer the bike back up while keeping your body forward and to the inside.

What do you think the benefit of the pick up drill might be? And how might that be applicable for mid corner exit speed and traction control?

Misti

Anyone? Anyone?

[adouglas]

At a wild guess...

That could be good for correcting your line mid-corner. I think we saw Marc Marquez do it in Sepang....

As in countersteer back up to run wider, then let the bike come back over again so the turn tightens.

As far as speed and traction... any time you can get the bike more vertical you tip the balance back toward more traction, right? So I'm thinking it gives you a bigger margin, and you can get on the gas harder/sooner.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Misti

Anyone? Anyone?

I have a long winded reply. I'm sure the anticipation will drive you crazy but you'll just have to wait!

But Coles Notes:
If I remember my lessons correctly;

1. Stable throughout!
   Set body position
   Brake & release
   Turn in
   gas

Point being to settle the suspension and minimize inputs that would destabilize the bike.
Which brings me back to my original question assuming you set your body position early and keep it set (the exception of adding a hook turn to tighten up the turn radius, if necessary) so as not to destabilize the bike; is it better to have weight shifted forward for exiting (and allow maximum throttle for the traction available) or weigh back for braking? My arms are long enough for either.

...that was the "Coles Notes"!

Apparently; my "List" skills are similar to my riding skills!

[Sirref]

Or even better, you can combine them. I have done so to great success at a few select corners at different tracks for radically improved exit speeds.

In summary the pick up technique allows for the rider to keep the bike more upright to allow for quicker and earlier throttle application, I do this very often. At some select corners I combine the hook turn with it to get on the throttle harder

I'll use njmp thunderbolt as my example, I ride a 300. T5 (left hander after the stupid fast T4 right) is the corner where I merge the two techniques, I use them separately across the rest of the track (I'd merge them more often on a 600) I enter T5 very tight on the left 3rd of the track, I've found it to be a much tighter line than what everyone I ride with does but that is to my advantage for passing. I then tip in with a hard and hug the curbing with as much momentum as I can carry before picking the bike back up while moving my upper body closer into the ground at the same time as adding very very liberal throttle application. I've gotten the rear to step out slightly in this corner during races.

As a result of the combination of the two techniques I've found that in that corner I hold the same entry speed with a tighter line and a faster exit due to getting on the throttle earlier

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That could be good for correcting your line mid-corner. I think we saw Marc Marquez do it in Sepang....

speaking from experience it can be used for that, and often needs to be in a racing situation. It's not something you'll need to do often at a track day but it's an invaluable street riding or racing skill

[alex.s]

depends on how you ride. about to wheelie? weight up front. about to stoppy? weight in the rear.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

At a wild guess...

That could be good for correcting your line mid-corner. I think we saw Marc Marquez do it in Sepang....

As in countersteer back up to run wider, then let the bike come back over again so the turn tightens.

As far as speed and traction... any time you can get the bike more vertical you tip the balance back toward more traction, right? So I'm thinking it gives you a bigger margin, and you can get on the gas harder/sooner.

This ^^^ When you get the bike more vertical you gain more traction so you can get on the gas harder and sooner. Perfect.

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

I have a long winded reply. I'm sure the anticipation will drive you crazy but you'll just have to wait!

But Coles Notes:
If I remember my lessons correctly;

1. Stable throughout!
   Set body position
   Brake & release
   Turn in
   gas

Point being to settle the suspension and minimize inputs that would destabilize the bike.
Which brings me back to my original question assuming you set your body position early and keep it set (the exception of adding a hook turn to tighten up the turn radius, if necessary) so as not to destabilize the bike; is it better to have weight shifted forward for exiting (and allow maximum throttle for the traction available) or weigh back for braking? My arms are long enough for either.

...that was the "Coles Notes"!

Apparently; my "List" skills are similar to my riding skills!

Well, when you set your body position before the turn you can continue to squeeze the tank with your knees in order to keep your weight from shifting forward under braking....this means less load on the front. However, under hard acceleration the front might want to come up so keeping your upper body forward and over the front can prevent it from wheeling too much. So, it's kinda a bit of both. You can keep your butt in the seat in the same place but adjust the weight balance with your upper body staying back or moving forward and down over the tank.

Does that answer the question?

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Misti

Well, when you set your body position before the turn you can continue to squeeze the tank with your knees in order to keep your weight from shifting forward under braking....this means less load on the front. However, under hard acceleration the front might want to come up so keeping your upper body forward and over the front can prevent it from wheeling too much. So, it's kinda a bit of both. You can keep your butt in the seat in the same place but adjust the weight balance with your upper body staying back or moving forward and down over the tank.

Does that answer the question?

Well no one has given me a definitive Yes or no so I must accept the fact I'm creating a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist!

I'll keep doing what I'm doing then next time you have me under your tutelage; you can laugh at me then correct what I'm doing wrong! I'm sure it will be way down the list anyway!

And thanks for bringing some of that Las Vegas sunshine home with you!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Well no one has given me a definitive Yes or no so I must accept the fact I'm creating a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist!

Naw man, as riders progress through their skill gains, the problems become more subtle cause and effect. So much of the time, a rider will come to a coach describing the symptoms of a problem rather than the issue itself. Rightly so....

So breaking your question down into it fundamental parts;

If you are so hard on the brakes on entry that you can't settle the bike down, then you most likely have charged it in the first place.
If you are so eager to get back to the throttle as well as being heavy handed on the gas, then maybe you have over braked for the corner or haven't worked out a turn point or entry speed.

Combine the two issues together and you get questions like your asking. If both of these issues are correct, you don't even have the major issue of body weight management to begin with.

When faced with what seems to be a complex problem with no definitive answer, review the basics and ask yourself if you're even asking the right question to begin with. Remember, the 1st best thing to do is ask the right questions, the 2nd best thing to do is ask the wrong questions, the worst thing to do is not ask at all.

ps... let the bike do that hard work

[SLOWn60]

I guess I'm not explaining what I'm asking clearly or the answers given are zipping past me (much like my fellow riders! )

This is really a technical traction concept I'm trying to find the answer to: the fine balance between front and rear traction when getting on the gas.

On exit and assuming the correct, maximized throttle application; weight shifts to the rear tire which (if I understand correctly) allows maximum traction for the rear tire. At the same time; weight is shifted away from the front tire.

It seems to me that if you load up the front as much as possible by being as far forward on the seat as possible, there is that much more load that could be transferred to the rear by increased throttle before losing front tire traction (a wheelie).
Or; is there even greater benefit to sit as far back as possible.

A real example that runs counter to my intuition is the ridiculous corner speeds that are seen on two up demo's. It would seem to prove it's better to load the rear!

I like the chin forward, body forward, butt forward, aggressive position rather than slid back on the seat. Perhaps though; it's counterproductive.

Reality is though; I'm a big sack of potatoes! It may feel like I'm about to drag elbows but only if I fall off!

Ok; unless the light has come on and you now understand my ramblings and have a significantly different answer than what has been kindly replied to before: let’s put this thread out of its misery!

Thanks for everyones input!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

This is really a technical traction concept I'm trying to find the answer to: the fine balance between front and rear traction when getting on the gas.

On exit and assuming the correct, maximized throttle application; weight shifts to the rear tire which (if I understand correctly) allows maximum traction for the rear tire. At the same time; weight is shifted away from the front tire.

It seems to me that if you load up the front as much as possible by being as far forward on the seat as possible, there is that much more load that could be transferred to the rear by increased throttle before losing front tire traction (a wheelie).
Or; is there even greater benefit to sit as far back as possible.

A real example that runs counter to my intuition is the ridiculous corner speeds that are seen on two up demo's. It would seem to prove it's better to load the rear!

I like the chin forward, body forward, butt forward, aggressive position rather than slid back on the seat. Perhaps though; it's counterproductive.

Reality is though; I'm a big sack of potatoes! It may feel like I'm about to drag elbows but only if I fall off!

Ok; unless the light has come on and you now understand my ramblings and have a significantly different answer than what has been kindly replied to before: let’s put this thread out of its misery!

Thanks for everyones input!

Ah, let's get technical then...

Your tires contact patches tell the story. Which is bigger? The rear of course... Once you measure weight and set sag, you can begin to calculate the weight transfer needed to load up the contact patches (both front and rear) for maximum drive and traction. In general and without getting into measure your tires footprint, wheelbase, static and loaded weight, you will want a 40% front /60% rear weight distro while on the throttle. On a 600, a smooth 5th gear roll on does this and gives you something to base the other gears on. Try to achieve most if not all of weight transfer with the throttle and try to not rely on body position as much except in special case corners or conditions (as described in the above posts). On a 250, with an average sized male rider (165-195lbs), this throttle roll can be very aggressive vs bikes with much more power to weight ratios to achieve the weight distro.

After you get out there and try it, you might think... wtf this is too slow of a roll on. Yea... I thought so too, turns out my entry speed was way to slow to start with. Once you get your entry speed higher, you simply don't need a super aggressive throttle roll at near max lean (around the apex give or take).

On corner exit, ie once the bike lean angle starts to decrease, you can then begin to be even more aggressive with the throttle. The reason this is the case is because the traction dependency for stability is less dependant on the front tire's contact patch. At some point, it can be wheelied out of the corner. If you're using your inputs the best of your ability, then you can execute a "pick up". A pick up is when you quicken the pace of the bike's return to 0 lean angle via countersteering, while at the same time be more aggressive with your throttle roll, yet keep your body position in the cornering position. At this point you will be leveraging your body weight to assist the bike in holding the line set by the initial steering input, because you just countersteered the bike wide as well as being harder on the gas. And if you do spin the rear up while being more aggressive, by picking the bike up, you're already correcting any slides that might occur. Google "darkies" for fun.

Basically, get your bumm off the seat early and stay there. That only leaves you with your upper torso to move around mid-corner. Leaning forward to increase the weight on the front is pretty easy with just your upper torso, but pretty much counter productive to traction. At top pace, the front can barely hold the bike up with 60% of the weight on the rear, much less any extra the rider puts on it by moving around. In fact, the standard solution to a pushing front end, is to give it more gas, not load it up more.

Our fellow member @Motofool has posted many graphics and links in various threads that detail the traction effects on contact patches. Maybe he will be kind enough to add some links.

Oh! And one more thing... everything I stated above is in TOTW2 in print and video form. It's worth your time to give it a read/watch if you haven't.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ah, let's get technical then...

.... In fact, the standard solution to a pushing front end, is to give it more gas, not load it up more.

BINGO!!! That's my point (right or wrong): load up the front a little more which lets you use a little more gas!

I'll revisit mY TOTW2, Soft science of racing and the DVD. It has been a while since I've studied them. I've been side tracked the last couple of years studying Paragliding!

I appreciate your detailed replies. I'm sure others are benefiting from your efforts as well!

And @Motofool ; I'd love to see those links if you can find them!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

BINGO!!! That's my point (right or wrong): load up the front a little more which lets you use a little more gas!

That is basically what I am doing but I do it only on exit, when I pick the bike up. Combining the pick up and the hook turn together fixes that little bit of time where you go wide from getting too hard on the gas just a little but too soon post epex.

Moving the head and upper torso lower and to the inside (hook turn) does indeed load the front a bit more. It's purpose is to tighten a line mid corner. Thing is, I am waiting till I am taking lean angle away before adding load to go faster. Doing this too early mid corner I don't think will work out the way you want it too vs, just ensuring the fundamentals are in place. My gut tells me that it will be easy to improperly identify a "really agressive" body position with trying to load the front with extra weight. The extra level of confidence that it takes to be that aggressive with bp, should also come along with higher corner speeds, lesser lean angles which equals a more aggressive throttle role due to those changes. Semantics right? Yea possibly so... but you did say you wanted to get technical.

Sometimes... if the track has the grip, and the tires have the traction, you are awarded some freedoms in body position to do things that "break the rules". But do please be careful loading the front as it will be easy to add lean + throttle. There are far too many crashes because of that.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

That is basically what I am doing but I do it only on exit, when I pick the bike up. Combining the pick up and the hook turn together fixes that little bit of time where you go wide from getting too hard on the gas just a little but too soon post epex.

Moving the head and upper torso lower and to the inside (hook turn) does indeed load the front a bit more. It's purpose is to tighten a line mid corner. Thing is, I am waiting till I am taking lean angle away before adding load to go faster. Doing this too early mid corner I don't think will work out the way you want it too vs, just ensuring the fundamentals are in place. My gut tells me that it will be easy to improperly identify a "really agressive" body position with trying to load the front with extra weight. The extra level of confidence that it takes to be that aggressive with bp, should also come along with higher corner speeds, lesser lean angles which equals a more aggressive throttle role due to those changes. Semantics right? Yea possibly so... but you did say you wanted to get technical.

Sometimes... if the track has the grip, and the tires have the traction, you are awarded some freedoms in body position to do things that "break the rules". But do please be careful loading the front as it will be easy to add lean + throttle. There are far too many crashes because of that.

Semantics, splitting hairs, fly poop in the pepper; the discussion has produced exactly what I was after.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

........Our fellow member @Motofool has posted many graphics and links in various threads that detail the traction effects on contact patches. Maybe he will be kind enough to add some links.......

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

......... And @Motofool ; I'd love to see those links if you can find them!

I'm working on it.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I'm working on it.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

The question you ask in this thread is very interesting Bill, most riders don't pay attention to those things.
The proper answer to your question is very long and complicated.
The best short answers have been provided above.

In order to simplify the reasoning, imagine a bike as a mono-cycle and all its mass as concentrated in a specific point: the CG.
Will the weight of that single wheel-tire affect its capability to corner hard?

Following a few of the above referred links that I have found for you.
Most of those can be found in our Riding Skills section.
Sorry about the excessive number of links; I don't mean you to read all, but you may be able to find some of the information that interests you among those.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...371#post634371

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172628

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233124

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230841

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205642

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=180245

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134072

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208528

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185205

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100922

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100964

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=138226

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136773

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=124105

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98085

[csmith12]

@Motofool

You rock sir!

[SLOWn60]

Fantastic, Hernan!!!
I'll be studying each & every one!
I may not get my laundry or housekeeping done but one must set priorities and stick to them!

[SLOWn60]

After careful analysis of all data available: I'm right!

[csmith12]

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

......... It seems to me that if you load up the front as much as possible by being as far forward on the seat as possible, there is that much more load that could be transferred to the rear by increased throttle before losing front tire traction (a wheelie)........

There is something incorrect with that concept.

You can transfer loads between tires by deceleration, acceleration or body re-positioning, but there is only one amount of load to work with: weight of bike + weight of rider.

A portion of whatever load you transfer onto the rear tire with throttle, will be transferred forward when you move your body as far forward on the seat as possible.
You obtain exactly the same result by seating more aft and giving a little less throttle.
Your comfort and access/effectiveness on the controls is extremely important, the throttle is the correct way to distribute the load between both contact patches and suspensions.

Using the brake and the throttle you can load and unload each contact patch and suspension from zero to max (weight of bike + weight of rider) and vice-verse.
However, you can only achieve a small fraction of that range by shifting your body a few inches respect to the wheelbase forward or aft.

Increasing traction by transferring load over a tire has a negative effect: the suspension is also loaded and it is harder for that loaded contact patch to follow the irregularities and undulations of the asphalt and hence, to stay loaded as intended (too much on crests and too little in valleys).
Because of the above, increasing traction by transferring load not always works as directly and cleanly as expected.

Another collateral effect of transferring load over a tire is the change in the geometry and feeling of the steering.
Loading the front reduces trail and rake angle, which makes the steering lighter or more responsive but less self-recovering or re-centering.
Loading the rear has the opposite effect.



In order to quickly stand the bike up on exit via counter-steering, you need some load (and hence traction) on the front tire.
Yes, the acceleration tends to open the radius of the described circle, but that happens relatively slowly.

Same as a single tire can, a bike can keep a lean angle while describing a circular line without having contact of the front tire with pavement.
In order to force the bike out of that leaned condition, you need some front traction for counter-steering.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Chris; that's two "BINGO!"'s in one thread!
But I'm enjoying this brain teaser and the answers given are just making my pea brain churn even more!
However; as much as I want to carry on with the discussion and reply; today is a jewel of a day which can be rare this time of year here on the wet coast so I'm going riding!!! There's a bit of frost though which may hang out in the shadows so I'll be taking the dual sport today and do a little fire-roading up to a hot spring about 150 kms away where I can wile away on my reply to Hernan's great arguments! He's confusing me with facts when my mind is made up!
Enjoy your weekend!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

I'll be taking the dual sport today and do a little fire-roading up to a hot spring

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

That also explains my concern with tire loading
...is my phone camera on again?!?