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Old November 21st, 2017, 11:51 AM   #1
Dustin5611
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Fuel

Okay so it's something that I have been wandering for a while because I know that ethanol eats away at the carb how bad of an idea would it be to run 93 octane in a 250cc engine

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Old November 21st, 2017, 11:55 AM   #2
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It wouldn't make any difference, other than running slightly richer if it's non-ethanol gasoline.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 12:41 PM   #3
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You may actually lose power if running higher-than-designed octane fuel. This has been dyno-proven endlessly. You'll want to run lowest octane possible that doesn't cause knocking/pinging. These newgen bikes actually has lower-compression than previous pregen engines, and those run just fine on 87-octane.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 12:55 PM   #4
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What makes you think 93 octane has less ethanol in it?

(This may vary by location IIRC... here in Connecticut everything except race gas has ethanol.)
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Old November 21st, 2017, 01:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
You may actually lose power if running higher-than-designed octane fuel. This has been dyno-proven endlessly.
Not according to this comparison: https://www.superstreetbike.com/more...busters#page-2

Of course dynamometers can be made to prove about anything the operator wants to prove.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 01:31 PM   #6
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Not according to this comparison: https://www.superstreetbike.com/more...busters#page-2

Of course dynamometers can be made to prove about anything the operator wants to prove.
Yeah, on EFI engine, it's all a wash unless you re-program ignition-map with more advance to take advantage of higher-octane fuel. Which precludes going back to lower-octane without re-programming again.

I think dyno-comparisons I'm thinking of is +10yrs old on carb engines. NA engines make max-power around 13.5:1, richer or leaner on either side tends to drop power. The difference in AFR with running richer would account for loss of power. The primary octane-boosting hydrocarbon in higher-octane fuels is toluene which has higher specific-gravity than 87-octane gasoline mix, which causes richer mixtures.

If Dustin is worried about ill-effects on carbs, he should be looking more at RVP-Reid Vapour Pressure rather than Octane properties of gasoline. The winter-blends of gas tend to have higher RVP for easier evaporation and lower emissions. This causes gasoline sitting around to dry out faster and clog carbs easier during winter storage. Using some additives like Stabil-360 is a simple fix.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 01:51 PM   #7
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The primary octane-boosting hydrocarbon in higher-octane fuels is toluene which has higher specific-gravity than 87-octane gasoline mix, which causes richer mixtures.
It can be toluene, xylene, benzene, and others, in any combination they feel like using at the time.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 02:09 PM   #8
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It can be toluene, xylene, benzene, and others, in any combination they feel like using at the time.
Kinda like floor-sweepings and leftovers? FDA allows up to 2% rat-droppings (and rats) in hot-dogs. So I guess EPA is just as corrupt as FDA.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 02:32 PM   #9
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kinda like floor-sweepings and leftovers? Fda allows up to 2% rat-droppings (and rats) in hot-dogs. So i guess epa is just as corrupt as fda.
yup, its all about the all mighty dollar
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Old November 21st, 2017, 03:03 PM   #10
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I'll have to ask a friend of mine about it next spring at the 2-stroke meet. He works at a refinery in Louisiana, and is up on all the refining and distilling and blending of stuff.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 06:32 PM   #11
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Here in Iowa I can get ethanol free 87 and 91. It varies from station to station a bit.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 11:43 PM   #12
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try stabil 360
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 04:04 AM   #13
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yup, its all about the all mighty dollar
Yeah, take denatured alcohol for example. It's basically ethanol (booze) mixed with methanol (wood alcohol). Why is it mixed with methanol? So you can't go to Home Depot and buy it to make drinks. Why, because our legislators would rather blind us, put us in a coma or kill us rather than lose a single penny in liquor taxes.

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Old November 22nd, 2017, 08:17 AM   #14
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I would say use the lowest octane you can get that doesn't contain ethanol.

Or you could try the Stabil additive designed to neutralize the effects of ethanol.

87 without ethanol will give you the best performance and economy in a stock Ninja 250 if you can get it.

I believe having excessive octane can lead to incomplete combustion and additional carbon build-up in the combustion chamber. It can also lead to hard starting in some engines.

In a carbed engine, gas with ethanol will produce a leaner mixture than gas without, so running ethanol-free gas can make a carbed engine run better (richer) if it hasn't been tuned.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 09:14 AM   #15
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I would say use the lowest octane you can get that doesn't contain ethanol.

Or you could try the Stabil additive designed to neutralize the effects of ethanol.

87 without ethanol will give you the best performance and economy in a stock Ninja 250 if you can get it.

I believe having excessive octane can lead to incomplete combustion and additional carbon build-up in the combustion chamber. It can also lead to hard starting in some engines.

In a carbed engine, gas with ethanol will produce a leaner mixture than gas without, so running ethanol-free gas can make a carbed engine run better (richer) if it hasn't been tuned.
There are other benefits to using a premium grade gasoline in your engine;

- Fuel detergents will protect against intake valve deposits
- Anti adhesion compounds prevent fuel detergents from forming a sticky
film on intake valves
- corrosion inhibitor helps prevent rust in the fuel system
- demulsifier helps prevent water from accumulating in your gas tank
allowing it to be separated and removed

I believe less expensive gasoline may not contain these added benefits.

Bill
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 09:23 AM   #16
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There are other benefits to using a premium grade gasoline in your engine;
I may be wrong, but I think you're referring to so called "top tier" gasoline brands, as opposed to "premium" that means high octane. For example, all Chevron gasoline contains Techron, regardless of whether it's regular or premium.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 10:22 AM   #17
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I may be wrong, but I think you're referring to so called "top tier" gasoline brands, as opposed to "premium" that means high octane. For example, all Chevron gasoline contains Techron, regardless of whether it's regular or premium.
Correct. Top Tier fuel is supported by BMW, GM, Honda, Toyota, VW and Audi. Which makes it good enough for my Ninja.

I didn't know Chevron gasoline contained Techron. Makes sense since Chevron manufactures Techron. I use it in my auto 2X/year and a few ounces my bike 1X/year. A friend of mine swears by the stuff.

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Old November 22nd, 2017, 10:31 AM   #18
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Correct. Top Tier fuel is supported by BMW, GM, Honda, Toyota, VW and Audi. Which makes it good enough for my Ninja.

I didn't know Chevron gasoline contained Techron. Makes sense since Chevron manufactures Techron. I use it in my auto 2X/year and a few ounces my bike 1X/year. A friend of mine swears by the stuff.
I know additives are not a cure-all, or even a cure-very-many, but last year my chainsaw was showing signs of a dirty carb. It was hard to start, and I had to keep adjusting the mixture screws. When I got it out this year to cut some firewood, it was getting worse. I got a bottle of Techron and added a little to the fuel, ran the saw long enough to get the stuff into the carburetor, and let it sit overnight. The next day it started easily, and I had to close the mixture screws way down to their original settings. I used it to cut about six cords of wood and it ran flawlessly the whole time.

I absolutely don't expect it to work that way on every dirty carburetor, but that bottle was worth the price for the time and effort it saved me on that one job.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 10:46 AM   #19
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I know additives are not a cure-all, or even a cure-very-many, but last year my chainsaw was showing signs of a dirty carb. It was hard to start, and I had to keep adjusting the mixture screws. When I got it out this year to cut some firewood, it was getting worse. I got a bottle of Techron and added a little to the fuel, ran the saw long enough to get the stuff into the carburetor, and let it sit overnight. The next day it started easily, and I had to close the mixture screws way down to their original settings. I used it to cut about six cords of wood and it ran flawlessly the whole time.

I absolutely don't expect it to work that way on every dirty carburetor, but that bottle was worth the price for the time and effort it saved me on that one job.
Thanks for that feedback T.J. I use it because of the respect I have for the person who recommended it to me. You've added real-life experience.


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Old November 22nd, 2017, 11:14 AM   #20
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Adding Techron (active ingredients PEA) increases detergent cleaning ability significantly more than what’s in Chevron gas. So if you’re going to be adding it, really doesn’t matter what gas you get. Other cleaner that has high dose of PEA is Redline SI-1.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 12:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ram Jet View Post
There are other benefits to using a premium grade gasoline in your engine;

- Fuel detergents will protect against intake valve deposits
- Anti adhesion compounds prevent fuel detergents from forming a sticky
film on intake valves
- corrosion inhibitor helps prevent rust in the fuel system
- demulsifier helps prevent water from accumulating in your gas tank
allowing it to be separated and removed

I believe less expensive gasoline may not contain these added benefits.

Bill
As TJ noted - it's more of a "Top Tier" thing. The local "Top Tier" station says on the pump that it has maximum detergents in all grades, but some oil companies will try to sell you on their Premium gas even if you don't need it.

You are way ahead running a tank full of a strong fuel system cleaner (like Chevron Techron Concentrate - 1oz per gal) once every season than buying Premium gas thinking it's keeping the engine cleaner.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 10:29 PM   #22
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As TJ noted - it's more of a "Top Tier" thing. The local "Top Tier" station says on the pump that it has maximum detergents in all grades, but some oil companies will try to sell you on their Premium gas even if you don't need it.

You are way ahead running a tank full of a strong fuel system cleaner (like Chevron Techron Concentrate - 1oz per gal) once every season than buying Premium gas thinking it's keeping the engine cleaner.
I can't worry about what I pay per gallon for fuel for a motorcycle that "sips" it's drink anymore that I lose sleep over what to do with 1/2 a can of brake fluid. Hell, I paid over $400.00 for my Yoshimura mufflers do you think I give a zit about a few gallons of gasoline? I will say that I have experienced greater gas mileage with premium fuel though.

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Old November 23rd, 2017, 07:11 AM   #23
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I can't worry about what I pay per gallon for fuel for a motorcycle that "sips" it's drink anymore that I lose sleep over what to do with 1/2 a can of brake fluid. Hell, I paid over $400.00 for my Yoshimura mufflers do you think I give a zit about a few gallons of gasoline? I will say that I have experienced greater gas mileage with premium fuel though.

"Run watcha brung."
Bill
Only the high-ticket fluids and parts for your Ninja, but you said you can't consider a $40 balaclava to keep your head warm, instead going for the $3.29 or $5.39 model. You owe yourself better than that!
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 09:08 AM   #24
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Has anyone ever done an experiment with this? not the official studies, but their own 8th grade science experiment, where you have some fun.
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 09:47 AM   #25
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I can't worry about what I pay per gallon for fuel for a motorcycle that "sips" it's drink anymore that I lose sleep over what to do with 1/2 a can of brake fluid. Hell, I paid over $400.00 for my Yoshimura mufflers do you think I give a zit about a few gallons of gasoline? I will say that I have experienced greater gas mileage with premium fuel though.

"Run watcha brung."
Bill
That wasn't my point.

I could care less about cost of fuel for the cycles as well, but running Premium (if it's not necessary) is giving you less performance and economy - even if the cost was the same as Regular.
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 10:19 AM   #26
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Only the high-ticket fluids and parts for your Ninja, but you said you can't consider a $40 balaclava to keep your head warm, instead going for the $3.29 or $5.39 model. You owe yourself better than that!
Not for the two or three times a year I ride when it's 30-40 degrees out. What I owe myself is a set of Mikuni carbs off a Yamaha RD350/400.

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Old November 23rd, 2017, 10:44 AM   #27
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That wasn't my point.

I could care less about cost of fuel for the cycles as well, but running Premium (if it's not necessary) is giving you less performance and economy - even if the cost was the same as Regular.
I hear you. I'm more concerned that I run Tier One fuel than how quickly I can pick-up a loaf of bread. You racer cats have a whole different agenda than I.

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Old November 24th, 2017, 08:01 AM   #28
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Old November 24th, 2017, 08:06 AM   #29
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Ram Jet

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