Suspension advice for the track

AchyGrappler · November 29th, 2017, 06:11 PM

The facts:
2004 Ninja EX250- No fairings, New-gen rear shock at max preload, Racetech .75 springs with 135 mm preload spacers, approx bike weight 320 lbs wet.

Rider- 1973, missing hair, 225 lbs in full race gear.

Other- On the advice of Dave Moss, I put a zip tie on my right fork leg. to monitor my fork travel and am getting around 70mm of travel. I'm not getting any bottoming. On the bumpier sections of Chuckwalla's bowl I can feel the front end working and overall the bike feel compliant and responsive. I've read through my Racetech Suspension bible and can't find a good solid determination if I need to change things up at the front.

Does anyone else have some stats of their static sag and track pace fork travel as well as their impressions of how the bike feels to share? My thoughts are that I may need a bit more preload or a bit more fork oil. I'm making up a few extra spacers from my 4' length of PVC that I bought for just this purpose. If I can get out to the track this month I may do some testing. With my homemade fork cap compressor I can change my spacers out in between sessions easily and get some comparison data.

DannoXYZ · November 29th, 2017, 07:40 PM

1. How much pre-load do you have? As in how much you have to press those spacers down in order to get them under the circlip in the fork?

2. What weight and height/volume oil in legs?

3. kickstand bracket shaved?

I think your fork should be fine, I'd work on the rear shock next. Also at this point, you may be better off focusing more on getting more time on track. As in more numbers-of-seconds-shaved will be gained with seat-time than equipment upgrades.

jrshooter · November 29th, 2017, 08:16 PM

take all this with a grain of salt. i ron a 12.5 rear spring gsxr shock valved.
.90 front springs emulators and 15 wt oil, i am 185. i could check my preload numbers, but i will tell you my preload changes through the day. esp if cold in the morning to hot in the afternoon. i say hook up with the suspension guy at the track, i use them most of the time.

jrshooter · November 29th, 2017, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrshooter

take all this with a grain of salt. i ron a 12.5 rear spring gsxr shock valved.
.90 front springs emulators and 15 wt oil, i am 185. i could check my preload numbers, but i will tell you my preload changes through the day. esp if cold in the morning to hot in the afternoon. i say hook up with the suspension guy at the track, i use them most of the time.

also with this set up i have to be really close to my faster pace, anything less, is not confidence inspiring you need a set up that matches your pace and stile, hence the suspension guy.

csmith12 · November 29th, 2017, 08:27 PM

Before I render an opinion, what tires are you running?

AchyGrappler · November 29th, 2017, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacRyann

1. How much pre-load do you have? 36mm

2. What weight and height/volume oil in legs? 15w/stock

3. kickstand bracket shaved? yep

Tires - Pirelli Diablo Scooter Tires 100/80-16 F, 130/80-16 rear. Cold pressure 24-5F/28R. Hot off the track 27/31. Temps from my Harbor Freight non-contact infrared thermometer 135 F. Pic is rear tire after last session last Saturday.

taz · November 30th, 2017, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achygrappler

tires - pirelli diablo scooter tires 100/80-16 f, 130/80-16 rear. Cold pressure 24-5f/28r. Hot off the track 27/31. Temps from my harbor freight non-contact infrared thermometer 135 f. Pic is rear tire after last session last saturday.

i've got them also ran them for a while on the track they were the least confidence inspiring set of tires we had in our group, so they got turned into my street only tires. The two upside of these tires are that they are vary cheap and wear like iron

AchyGrappler · November 30th, 2017, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taz

i've got them also ran them for a while on the track they were the least confidence inspiring set of tires we had in our group, so they got turned into my street only tires. The two upside of these tires are that they are vary cheap and wear like iron

I’ve found that they like a bit more pressure than other tires. Try to drop the pressure too much to get the heat up and the carcass gets squishy. They do wear well. That pic is 5 trackdays and four kart track days with plenty of life left.

Can’t find much else in a 16” wheel diameter though...

taz · November 30th, 2017, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

I’ve found that they like a bit more pressure than other tires. Try to drop the pressure too much to get the heat up and the carcass gets squishy. They do wear well. That pic is 5 trackdays and four kart track days with plenty of life left.

Can’t find much else in a 16” wheel diameter though...

ITS A COPY FROM Z1R RIDER BUT ARE GROUPS OLD SETUP WERE SETUP ON 17" WHEELS NOW

here's a copy and paste from an earlier post I made on tires: all are pre-gens with 16" wheels

We have 5 Ninjettes in the family and they all have different tires and I've ridden all of them on the street and 4 on the track. First let me say that they all have a different "feel" when riding, none have a bad feeling (like the stock Dunlops) just different.

Bike one has Metzeler Laser Tec 100-90 on front 130-90 on rear, this is my personal favorite on the track or the street, very stable on the straights or the corners, turns in quickly and holds it's line. It seems that the tread doesn't wrap around as far as the others as it has no "chicken strips" left on front or rear, or maybe I push harder on them because they feel good to me.

Bike two has Shinko SR740 100-80 on front and SR741 130-80 on the rear, contrary to "wiki; Shinko tires: No better than the Dunlop K630" these are a surprise!! they are good enough to take the stock forks to their limit, you can drag footpegs all day long with them, stoppies, no problem! Turn in is quicker than the Metzelers, and they feel a little bit "twitchy", but never scared me. One of the racers on a 300 was amazed when he came to our pit and saw it has Shinkos.

Bike three has Pirelli MT75s 100-80 front and 120-80 rear, turn in is quick like the Shinkos, and are a little twitchy, but no unhappy surprises. Shorter rear tire lets the pegs drag sooner than the others.

Bike four has Pirelli Sport Demon 110-90 front and 130-90 rear, turn in is a little heavier than the others but no where near as heavy as a 600 or 1000. Is stable everywhere and taller front tire gives extra cornering clearance, feels to me like it wants to stand up in the corners. Had to move the front fender up to clear the tire.

Bike five has the Pirelli Diablo Scooter tires, 100-80 front and 130-80 rear

DannoXYZ · November 30th, 2017, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taz

Bike two has Shinko SR740 100-80 on front and SR741 130-80 on the rear, contrary to "wiki; Shinko tires: No better than the Dunlop K630" these are a surprise!! they are good enough to take the stock forks to their limit, you can drag footpegs all day long with them, stoppies, no problem! Turn in is quicker than the Metzelers, and they feel a little bit "twitchy", but never scared me. One of the racers on a 300 was amazed when he came to our pit and saw it has Shinkos.

I see reports like these all the time! I'm on my 3rd set of their radial tyres on my CBR600RR and couldn't be happier!

DannoXYZ · November 30th, 2017, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

Tires - Pirelli Diablo Scooter Tires 100/80-16 F, 130/80-16 rear. Cold pressure 24-5F/28R. Hot off the track 27/31. Temps from my Harbor Freight non-contact infrared thermometer 135 F. Pic is rear tire after last session last Saturday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

I’ve found that they like a bit more pressure than other tires. Try to drop the pressure too much to get the heat up and the carcass gets squishy. They do wear well. That pic is 5 trackdays and four kart track days with plenty of life left.

Can’t find much else in a 16” wheel diameter though...

I've gotten the following temp-readings:

180-190F - OEM BT45 tyres (+3s)
190-200F - Dunlop Alpha-13 SP (+0.5s)
195-210F - Pirelli Supercorsa (0)

I think your equipment is fine, get more seat-time in on the track. For example, I did 48 days at track this year. 8 of them were race days and open practice. Didn't change much on bike entire year, just oil-changes every 10-hrs and tyre swaps. Well, added 1-turn of pre-load on front back in March, but that was it.

AchyGrappler · November 30th, 2017, 01:19 PM

That seems like very high temps, but I’m not sure what to be shooting for. I know my thermometer reads a little on the low side, but it is consistent so it give useful data.

Combing through the various track day org and track schedules now to put together my 2018 calendar. December will most likely be quiet so I’ll tweak the suspension a little. Maybe some other small changes to help with ergonomics. For me working on the bike is as much fun as riding it. Doing these little projects gives me content for my blog and my extensive audience of tens of followers and fans.

DannoXYZ · November 30th, 2017, 03:48 PM

Ground was 130F at some trackdays this last summer, just rolling bike across tarmac will get it to 130F!

My tyre-warmers start at 180F and goes to 195F on high. About 180-200F is when tyres are stickiest. After 210F+, they start getting greasy. Think about those guys passing you, their higher-speeds will generate more heat. When you get that fast, you'll find your tyre-temps to be higher.

If you want to upgrade hardware, rear-shock is probably next. When you get faster, you'll find back-end wallowing a bit. Easy swap with 08+ 250R/300 rear shock. This will give you preload adjustment to match the front.

ALSO, double-bubble windscreen is good for an extra 2-3mph on straights. Along with clip-on bars to help you hide better.

cbreater · December 1st, 2017, 09:41 AM

As this is a question regarding suspension set up with pre-gens, below is a copy paste of what I wrote of my own riding impressions within our own group. As TAZ mentioned, these are all currently on sticky 17" tires now but the general feel for the suspension and how each has reacted should give you some ideas.

"To get right to the answer for you, over a stock set up, yes they are very much worth the investment. I would personally suggest something for the rear at the same time (either a new gen shock swap or GSX-R shock swap).We did ride them bone stock for a short period and while soft, and bouncy, they are serviceable for track riding even bone stock and soggy.

To give more detail though and offer a second solution:

We have a slew of pre-gen 250’s in our camp with various states of tune but here is what we have and my personal take on the set ups. I have not ridden any of these on the street, only at the track. YMMV
All have GSX-R rear shocks tuned to the owners riding preference for feel and tire wear. Front suspension is set up as follows:

1 with GVE, cut stock springs to get roughly .70 and if I recall, 30wt fork oil. Not sure what pop off spring is being used. This is stiff, hydraulic stiff. Originally it had 2” cut off the stock springs and a lighter weight oil but was somewhat softly sprung. This setup offered good compliance and feel but was soft for hard braking. Stiffer springs were added but then the rebound wasn’t enough to slow down the return stroke. Thicker oil was added to calm the rebound and that worked great but now it feels hydraulically stiff on compression and does not offer the feel of the softer set up. This is running RS10 tires. I’m sure this will get sorted out over winter to soften it back up.

1 with GVE, .75 Sonic springs, 30wt fork oil. Not sure what pop off spring is being used. This is stiff, hydraulic stiff. Originally it had 2” cut off the stock springs and a lighter weight oil but was somewhat softly sprung. This setup offered good compliance and feel but was soft for hard braking. Stiffer springs were added but then the rebound wasn’t enough to slow down the return stroke. Thicker oil was added to calm the rebound and that worked great but now it feels hydraulically stiff on compression and does not offer the feel of the softer set up. This is running Alpha 13 tires. I’m sure this will get sorted out over winter to soften it back up. Essentially the same set up as above but with different springs. They feel very similar to each other (as they should being set up almost identical).

1 with Ricor Intiminators, 2” cut off stock springs, 5wt oil. This bike is pretty well sorted and offers good feel on the front. This is running Alpha 13 tires. This is a softer sprung but very well damped set up. Stiffer would be nice on this set up to hold the front up under hard braking better but otherwise a good set up with lots of feel.

1 with Ricor Intiminators, .75 Sonic springs, 5wt oil, forks lowered in triples, Big Boy links to raise bike 1” at the pegs. This bike is running SuperCorsa tires. This bike offers the best compromise (in my opinion, the others may chime in and prefer their own set up) of stiff yet compliant. Offers fantastic front end feel and bump compliance while supporting the front end well under hard braking. This is my personal choice for best feeling setup for fast laps. This set up offers almost the same feel as above (as it should being set up almost identical) but with better chassis support with the stiffer front springs.

IMO, the Ricor set up is the way to go. No, you cannot tune them like you can the GVE, but in my experience it looks like you don’t need to in order to achieve a great feeling front end. If you spend enough time with the GVE I’m sure they can be tuned to be as good or better than the Ricor but to get going with little fuss, get the Ricor and enjoy your new suspension."

November 29th, 2017, 06:11 PM	#1
AchyGrappler Motorbike Obsessed Name: Me Location: SoCal Join Date: May 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2004 Kawasaki EX250, 2004 Yamaha FZ1, 2006 Honda CRF 450 Flat Track Race Bike Posts: 133	Suspension advice for the track The facts: 2004 Ninja EX250- No fairings, New-gen rear shock at max preload, Racetech .75 springs with 135 mm preload spacers, approx bike weight 320 lbs wet. Rider- 1973, missing hair, 225 lbs in full race gear. Other- On the advice of Dave Moss, I put a zip tie on my right fork leg. to monitor my fork travel and am getting around 70mm of travel. I'm not getting any bottoming. On the bumpier sections of Chuckwalla's bowl I can feel the front end working and overall the bike feel compliant and responsive. I've read through my Racetech Suspension bible and can't find a good solid determination if I need to change things up at the front. Does anyone else have some stats of their static sag and track pace fork travel as well as their impressions of how the bike feels to share? My thoughts are that I may need a bit more preload or a bit more fork oil. I'm making up a few extra spacers from my 4' length of PVC that I bought for just this purpose. If I can get out to the track this month I may do some testing. With my homemade fork cap compressor I can change my spacers out in between sessions easily and get some comparison data. __________________________________________________ My race Ninja build and more motorcycle content. My Motorbike Obsessions

November 29th, 2017, 08:27 PM	#5
csmith12 The Corner Whisperer Name: Chris (aka Reactor) Location: Northern KY Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much. MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13	Before I render an opinion, what tires are you running? __________________________________________________ Goal: Shake A Million Hands \| Look through the corners \| Track Day Prep \| Closest track? \| The Mid-Ohio School

November 30th, 2017, 01:19 PM	#12
AchyGrappler Motorbike Obsessed Name: Me Location: SoCal Join Date: May 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2004 Kawasaki EX250, 2004 Yamaha FZ1, 2006 Honda CRF 450 Flat Track Race Bike Posts: 133	That seems like very high temps, but I’m not sure what to be shooting for. I know my thermometer reads a little on the low side, but it is consistent so it give useful data. Combing through the various track day org and track schedules now to put together my 2018 calendar. December will most likely be quiet so I’ll tweak the suspension a little. Maybe some other small changes to help with ergonomics. For me working on the bike is as much fun as riding it. Doing these little projects gives me content for my blog and my extensive audience of tens of followers and fans. __________________________________________________ My race Ninja build and more motorcycle content. My Motorbike Obsessions

November 30th, 2017, 03:48 PM	#13
DannoXYZ ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: AKA JacRyann Location: Mesa, AZ Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17	Ground was 130F at some trackdays this last summer, just rolling bike across tarmac will get it to 130F! My tyre-warmers start at 180F and goes to 195F on high. About 180-200F is when tyres are stickiest. After 210F+, they start getting greasy. Think about those guys passing you, their higher-speeds will generate more heat. When you get that fast, you'll find your tyre-temps to be higher. If you want to upgrade hardware, rear-shock is probably next. When you get faster, you'll find back-end wallowing a bit. Easy swap with 08+ 250R/300 rear shock. This will give you preload adjustment to match the front. ALSO, double-bubble windscreen is good for an extra 2-3mph on straights. Along with clip-on bars to help you hide better. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; November 30th, 2017 at 06:08 PM.

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November 29th, 2017, 07:40 PM	#2
DannoXYZ ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: AKA JacRyann Location: Mesa, AZ Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17	1. How much pre-load do you have? As in how much you have to press those spacers down in order to get them under the circlip in the fork? 2. What weight and height/volume oil in legs? 3. kickstand bracket shaved? I think your fork should be fine, I'd work on the rear shock next. Also at this point, you may be better off focusing more on getting more time on track. As in more numbers-of-seconds-shaved will be gained with seat-time than equipment upgrades.

November 29th, 2017, 08:16 PM	#3
jrshooter ninjette.org guru Name: john Location: placerville Join Date: Apr 2016 Motorcycle(s): ninja 300 Posts: 386	take all this with a grain of salt. i ron a 12.5 rear spring gsxr shock valved. .90 front springs emulators and 15 wt oil, i am 185. i could check my preload numbers, but i will tell you my preload changes through the day. esp if cold in the morning to hot in the afternoon. i say hook up with the suspension guy at the track, i use them most of the time.

December 1st, 2017, 09:41 AM	#14
cbreater ninjette.org member Name: Corey Location: Minneapolis Join Date: Oct 2015 Motorcycle(s): 16' S1000RR, 04' CB919, CRF150/230, 07' 250R Posts: 41	As this is a question regarding suspension set up with pre-gens, below is a copy paste of what I wrote of my own riding impressions within our own group. As TAZ mentioned, these are all currently on sticky 17" tires now but the general feel for the suspension and how each has reacted should give you some ideas. "To get right to the answer for you, over a stock set up, yes they are very much worth the investment. I would personally suggest something for the rear at the same time (either a new gen shock swap or GSX-R shock swap).We did ride them bone stock for a short period and while soft, and bouncy, they are serviceable for track riding even bone stock and soggy. To give more detail though and offer a second solution: We have a slew of pre-gen 250’s in our camp with various states of tune but here is what we have and my personal take on the set ups. I have not ridden any of these on the street, only at the track. YMMV All have GSX-R rear shocks tuned to the owners riding preference for feel and tire wear. Front suspension is set up as follows: 1 with GVE, cut stock springs to get roughly .70 and if I recall, 30wt fork oil. Not sure what pop off spring is being used. This is stiff, hydraulic stiff. Originally it had 2” cut off the stock springs and a lighter weight oil but was somewhat softly sprung. This setup offered good compliance and feel but was soft for hard braking. Stiffer springs were added but then the rebound wasn’t enough to slow down the return stroke. Thicker oil was added to calm the rebound and that worked great but now it feels hydraulically stiff on compression and does not offer the feel of the softer set up. This is running RS10 tires. I’m sure this will get sorted out over winter to soften it back up. 1 with GVE, .75 Sonic springs, 30wt fork oil. Not sure what pop off spring is being used. This is stiff, hydraulic stiff. Originally it had 2” cut off the stock springs and a lighter weight oil but was somewhat softly sprung. This setup offered good compliance and feel but was soft for hard braking. Stiffer springs were added but then the rebound wasn’t enough to slow down the return stroke. Thicker oil was added to calm the rebound and that worked great but now it feels hydraulically stiff on compression and does not offer the feel of the softer set up. This is running Alpha 13 tires. I’m sure this will get sorted out over winter to soften it back up. Essentially the same set up as above but with different springs. They feel very similar to each other (as they should being set up almost identical). 1 with Ricor Intiminators, 2” cut off stock springs, 5wt oil. This bike is pretty well sorted and offers good feel on the front. This is running Alpha 13 tires. This is a softer sprung but very well damped set up. Stiffer would be nice on this set up to hold the front up under hard braking better but otherwise a good set up with lots of feel. 1 with Ricor Intiminators, .75 Sonic springs, 5wt oil, forks lowered in triples, Big Boy links to raise bike 1” at the pegs. This bike is running SuperCorsa tires. This bike offers the best compromise (in my opinion, the others may chime in and prefer their own set up) of stiff yet compliant. Offers fantastic front end feel and bump compliance while supporting the front end well under hard braking. This is my personal choice for best feeling setup for fast laps. This set up offers almost the same feel as above (as it should being set up almost identical) but with better chassis support with the stiffer front springs. IMO, the Ricor set up is the way to go. No, you cannot tune them like you can the GVE, but in my experience it looks like you don’t need to in order to achieve a great feeling front end. If you spend enough time with the GVE I’m sure they can be tuned to be as good or better than the Ricor but to get going with little fuss, get the Ricor and enjoy your new suspension."