August 30th, 2010, 07:56 AM | #1 |
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Opinions please... 650R Rear Wheel Conversion
There has been a couple guys out there that have completed a larger rim upgrade so our 250's can use a larger rear tire without pinching the sidewalls or decreasing handling. My question for you guys is would it "hijacking" their design to come up with a kit that could be sold in the US to lower the cost of the kit. I would at least like to do a kit for myself but once I go thru the fabricating process, it would be easy to produce additional kits to be sold.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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August 30th, 2010, 08:30 AM | #2 |
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Why? Unless the larger tire would somehow give you better control, what is the point, other than looks?
As for if it would sell, it probably would as there are plenty of people who would probably buy it just for looks, even if it decreased their control. |
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August 30th, 2010, 08:32 AM | #3 |
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You wouldn't necessarily be 'hijacking' their design, as I'm sure your setup will be different than theirs. Whether they can sue you over this or not is another question, though.
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August 30th, 2010, 08:39 AM | #4 |
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Looks is a major factor but this is the right way to gain the 150 tire that a lot of people seem to be looking for.
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August 30th, 2010, 08:44 AM | #5 |
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Yeah I don't think that is a factor. You are correct in that the principle is what would be the same but the design would be mine. Not sure how much the design would change as the the kit is mostly bushings. The caliper mount is what may have to be designed and fabricated.
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August 30th, 2010, 08:57 AM | #6 |
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I don't think you have to worry about design patents, since the majority of the parts are sold by Kawi. It's just a matter of mixing and matching. Start with the Ninja 650R (ER-6?) complete rear wheel assembly, etc.
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August 30th, 2010, 02:19 PM | #7 |
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Sounds like a great idea.
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August 30th, 2010, 03:48 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
Posted via Mobile Device |
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August 30th, 2010, 04:34 PM | #9 |
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That would be a fix for me but I would need a design for a local CNC or milling shop to be able to produce kits.
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August 31st, 2010, 05:13 AM | #10 |
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Check this out:
http://www.newninja.com/modification...fd8laqkopo21l3 Here are the parts that must be modifed: Before: After: |
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August 31st, 2010, 05:39 AM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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August 31st, 2010, 05:42 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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August 31st, 2010, 05:51 AM | #13 |
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Here is the part layout.... It is just to the right of the cush hub.
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August 31st, 2010, 05:59 AM | #14 |
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I guess this is where all the work comes in. All this changes will have to be measured precisely for everything to work smoothly. I don't imagine the other guys would be willing to share this information. This could get more interesting trying to figure these measurements out.
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August 31st, 2010, 09:53 AM | #15 |
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^^^^I'm sure the fellow (author of the link above) would share the info. Just need to register on the above site, so that you can PM him. He mentioned how much the caliper mount was milled in the link.
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August 31st, 2010, 09:56 AM | #16 |
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Yeah I caught that. I might try to become a member there. I have a hard enough time following this forum, I know I can't keep up with two.
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August 31st, 2010, 10:42 AM | #17 |
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I just registered and am waiting to be approved. Once that it is done, I will PM him.
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August 31st, 2010, 10:47 AM | #18 |
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Awesome... Thanks for your time and effort!
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September 1st, 2010, 09:36 AM | #19 |
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After reading everything again... looks like total change is 15mm. 11mm comes off the caliper mount so that leaves 4mm for the spacers. The only one that "appears" to change going by the pictures is the one to the right of the cush hub. I've ordered some spare parts from ebay to work with.
g21-30: Any word yet?
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September 1st, 2010, 11:13 AM | #20 |
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Usually going to a wider rear tire is a decrease in handling...slower turning.
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September 1st, 2010, 11:32 AM | #21 |
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That would be true if you stick it on the stock 250 rim. This is replacing the 250 rim with a larger one first then adding the 150.
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September 1st, 2010, 11:36 AM | #22 |
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September 1st, 2010, 11:36 AM | #23 |
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Can you explain that? Why does the width of the wheel make a difference?
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September 1st, 2010, 11:38 AM | #24 | |
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Quote:
Thanks kkim!
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September 1st, 2010, 11:42 AM | #25 |
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Jason,
as long as you advertise the kit as a cosmetic upgrade, I don't think you would have any problems selling these. most people seem to want to look better than to actually build a better handling bike, anyway. |
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September 1st, 2010, 11:46 AM | #26 | |
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It is going to slow turn in, add un-sprung weight and rob horsepower... but if you want to do it for an upgrade to look of the bike their is certainly nothing wrong with that. Many guys will run a 160 rear on the NSR's and other small bikes that came with a 150 because it "looks better" but it really does slow down the turning, however on a street bike this may not be a big deal to most!
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September 1st, 2010, 11:49 AM | #27 |
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Thank you again sir!
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September 1st, 2010, 11:56 AM | #28 | |
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BTW... the ninja is not my canyon cutter. I take the 1000RR out for that. The 250 is my commuter and "style" is what I am after.
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September 1st, 2010, 03:34 PM | #29 |
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Here's a thought. Since wider tires always slows turn in and degrades handling, why do all supersport bikes have 180+ rear tires. Can I put a 130 rear on my 1000RR to improve its handling?
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September 1st, 2010, 04:17 PM | #30 |
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Many bikes come with a 190, and lots of people like myself run a 180 instead!
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September 1st, 2010, 05:24 PM | #31 | |
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The parts page for each wheel on Kawi's site gives the dimensions (thickness and length) of all the components involved! The 650 center sleeve (not correct name), i.e. the long cylindrical pipe (92143) in the above picture is 133 mm, while the 250 version is 111 mm. The 650 sleeve (42036) is 23 mm and the 250 verison is 25 mm. The 650 collar (92152B) is 18 mm, while the 250 (42032) is 13 mm. We need to know the assembled thickness of the 650 wheel (to the edge of the bearings), as well as the 250. Obviously these must be made equal, with the appropriate offset, as needed for chain alignment! As stated in the previous mentioned thread, you can achieve better handling (performance) simply by switching to the factory size RADIAL tires. Seems the cheaper way to go! |
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September 1st, 2010, 05:53 PM | #32 |
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I'm thinking the 650R cush hub will be a variable also. If it is wider then it will vary the offset for the chain right?
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September 1st, 2010, 11:03 PM | #33 |
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If you pulled two (and maybe 3) spark plug wires, sure! The faster a bike can change direction from full lean one side to full lean the other side, the faster it's going to get around a track, given another bike with equal power.
Basically, the narrowest tire possible, that still provides enough of a contact patch to allow the available hp of the bike to hook up, is the sweet spot. It's why 125GP bikes have tiny tires, yet as the hp goes up in other classes the tires get wider and wider. It's not a style thing, it's just a matter of matching up the available power to the available grip. A tire that is larger than necessary to manage the available power, will result in a slower bike all around.
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September 2nd, 2010, 03:48 AM | #34 |
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September 2nd, 2010, 04:39 AM | #35 | |
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It's official... green is faster! Yeah I think I would have to admit that it is style this time. I ran out of HP mods. Hmmmm, is there a nitrous kit for this things? Take it easy, just kidding! I do however think that I would be more likely to push the lil 250 to its max knowing I have a larger contact patch. Maybe its style/mental.
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September 2nd, 2010, 05:33 AM | #36 | |
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How about a turbo? It's already been done.. I see that you watched the "Radial Tire Video": http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54293 Have you seen Gary Jaehne's comments in?: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2 I think these 2 guys (Radial video and Gary) probably push the 250 harder than 99% of the bikers out there, but I've only been riding a couple of years, so take that with alot of grains of salt! |
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September 2nd, 2010, 05:47 AM | #37 | |
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Any idea on how we can get some measurements from a 650 wheel hub? I should be able to get the 250 measurements shortly. I think I'm gonna "mock-up" the wheel on my wifes bike and leave mine for riding since she rarely rides hers. That reminds me... maybe its time to sell the red one since it's slower
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September 2nd, 2010, 06:43 AM | #38 |
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September 2nd, 2010, 06:51 AM | #39 |
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Ok. Well my 650R rim will be in today according to UPS. Where do you think the measurements should start. I can remove the 250 wheel to measure today too. Should we start with outside of bearing to outside of bearing on each wheel? I may have to go by a larger caliper for this project. I only have a 6".
It will be a few days before the other parts start coming in as they are coming by USPS. Hopefully everything will be in by next weekend following this holiday weekend.
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September 2nd, 2010, 09:05 AM | #40 |
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Outside to outside, i.e. where the edge of the swingarm touches on each side. You could bypass purchasing calipers by using a couple of straight edges and measuring thru the wheel the distance between the straight edges. Of course, someone (Wife?) else would need to hold the straight edges in place, while you measure.
You probably should measure each individual component, bearings, etc. I would lean more toward purchasing a 45T 650R sprocket, thus no filling and drilling. Also, buy the bearings mentioned that allow using the bearings without the sleeves....minor money. |
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