Looking for suspension advice for first track bike

[daverdfw]

So I have been doing a TON of reading here and am trying to get a good basic suspension setup before my first trackday next spring.

Here is what I have so far, a 2009 Ninja 250 completely stock.

I have acquired a 2006 GSXR rear shock, and a GSXR 1000 spring installed. I have new dogbones coming to compensate and restore stock ride height

I am 6'0 220 lb without gear. I hope to lose some weight, but lets pretend I wont.

For the fronts, I am hearing a lot of conflict around using RaceTech GVE or Intiminator or nothing at all, and just going with springs and proper oil.

If i go the springs and oil route. it looks like for my weight i need .90 or .95 spring rate springs, and 10wt oil and preload adjusters

Am i on the right path here? Or am I missing something obvious? Thanks!

[csmith12]

You're on the right path David. You could always go with springs and oil, then add the gves or intims later. Do your homework on those 2 items and choose what best fits your needs.

On the other hand, you could be one of those riders like a fellow racer friend of mine (5'8'' 260lbs) that rides the balls of the 250 in stock form.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by csmith12

You're on the right path David. You could always go with springs and oil, then add the gves or intims later. Do your homework on those 2 items and choose what best fits your needs.

On the other hand, you could be one of those riders like a fellow racer friend of mine (5'8'' 260lbs) that rides the balls of the 250 in stock form.

I did a track day on my friends 636, first time in 8 years I was on a bike, and never on his bike and never on a track. Looking forward to just using the 250 to get used to riding a track and hone my skills before moving to a bigger bike. I used to ride an R6 on street, but really want to get better with body position and lines before adding power.

So that springs and weight of oil sounds correct?

[Somchai]

Hi David,

to answer your question - yes you're right, but...

Experts are not always to find in forums, a good advice i.e. is here: http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/springs.htm
And there it says contradicting those 'forum-users' who in most cases only look for spring rate: "The correct spring is the softest spring available, that is able to support the bike and rider under the hardest of braking/accelerating while still leaving some room for the system to travel if a bumb is encountered in this state."
The setup of the suspension is much more than only springs and please remember always: What's working for anyone must NOT work for you!
The fork i.e. is much more than only a stiffer spring and to make this visually better to understand let me show you a picture which is based on real tests and measurements.
Note: This is from a German suspension specialist who is doing suspension work and setup for MotoGP-Bikes, also designed and fabricated a very special fork for the BossHoss Motorcycle (V8-Chevy engine, 1200 lbs weight).
The translation from German:
C = Spring rate
Vs = Preload
Ölstand = Oil level
Gabel Feder Weg = Wheel Travel
The text in blue:
For the four alignments/setups the start and end forces are almost identical.
In the area of ​​the wheel travel the sensitivity can be adjusted to individual requirements.

So it's good for a starting point to look in forums, but from there it's better to look for the real experts also (what doesn't mean all guys in forums are clueless!).
Good luck for you

[AwDang]

Let me tag @Floki and @Sirref to this thread.

Last weekend they rode 3 different bikes. 1) a GSXR budget build suspension set up, 2) a penske and matching rate springs w/oil no emulators 3) Ohlins/Andreani set up.

Nothing wrong with any of the builds. They just have a different riding feel each.

[Sirref]

@Floki 's bike had great front end feel with only springs and emulators. The rear stepped out more than a few times in the dry though but I was also hammering the throttle so I can be blamed for it.

The penske bike had great feel overall and felt smoother than floki's bike but the front end wasn't quite as good. This would actually be my favorite if it had emulators

I didn't ride the 102 long enough to really get a feel for it, but I know the cartridges are worth the money for racing. Outside of top pack times they're completely unnecessary though

All of the above were far superior to my stock suspension 300. I will be doing springs/emulators/gsxr shock to mine (largely because I already have the shock...otherwise I'd go penske)

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

I did a track day on my friends 636, first time in 8 years I was on a bike, and never on his bike and never on a track. Looking forward to just using the 250 to get used to riding a track and hone my skills before moving to a bigger bike. I used to ride an R6 on street, but really want to get better with body position and lines before adding power.

So that springs and weight of oil sounds correct?

Cool! Sounds like a good plan. The spring rate and oil you're thinking will be close enough to get you going depending on how aggressive your braking style is. I also went with the preload caps, those were a good addition if you ride multiple tracks of varying degrees of bumpiness and such or allow different riders to ride the bike. Once you get really going to the track often, you will want to set up the bike "per track". If your sticking with a few relatively smooth tracks, maybe you don't really need the caps.

Also, Ben is spot on about the gve's. You simply don't need them unless you're darn near top pack pace/near lap record pace. OR.... you can't get the bike to balance out when setting compression or rebound. When the suspension setup sucks, it can slow your learning progress down as you will feel the negative feedback from the bike. Was it your skill change or the bike causing the issue? Do you best to keep the bike's abilities better than the rider's. Feel me?

[sharky nrk]

First and foremost none of the posts above are incorrect. I have seen guys on race winning expert pace on stock suspension 250s and guys with carts/high end three way shocks that get lapped. Really good suspension is better if you have the skill to utilize it, and can provide feedback/comfort the faster you go. But its not NECESSARY to track the bike.

Just an FYI in this thread, looks like David is in God's Country (aka Texas lol ) and the tracks nearby him are QUITE bumpy. Typically one of the best reason for GVE's/carts stems from the bike needing to be able to respond to varying levels of damper velocity change due to different shapes, sizes, and speeds of bumps. And nice controlled motion at all the different points.

IF you were on a glass smooth track that was flat as flat can be with similarly paced corners, the suspension has a much much more consistent stroke in terms of damper velocity. In this case you could more easily pick a fluid orifice damping scheme that allowed for good control over movement (in this case slower velocities for feel).

Now at a really bumpy track, with various speed corners, and elevation and your asking the suspension to deal with a wider range of damper velocities. Harsh bumps require lots of high velocity dampening and you still want the precise low velocity dampening for feel at lean. And this is on both rebound and compression. There is simply no way that a orifice dampening scheme can adequately provide this, so we look for way to separate those functions and provide dampening curve in the desired shape.

Long story short/cliff notes - GVEs or carts and multi-adjustable shocks will provide far greater benefits on bumpy/sketchy/varied tracks vs really smooth/consistent tracks as compared to oil changes. Springs need to be changed regardless to provide the most available suspension travel for you and to maintain suspension action in most effective area of the travel.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

I am 6'0 220 lb without gear. I hope to lose some weight, but lets pretend I wont.

If i go the springs and oil route. it looks like for my weight i need .90 or .95 spring rate springs, and 10wt oil and preload adjusters

FYI your going to want minimum the .95s and 20wt oil at 220. The bikes stock rebound circuit will be completely overwhelmed with that rate of spring and 10wt oil.

[daverdfw]

here are videos of the tracks I will ride

Cresson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDoHL5Iyvns
Eagles Canyon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sms2_pzIc-c
Hallett https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHmOJdpbTzs
Texas World https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBgFyysMaQs

[adouglas]

Looks like good guidance, not that I'm in any way an expert in the dark art of suspension. Heck, I'm still convinced that Sir Bedevere was correct when he proved to King Arthur that the Earth is banana-shaped.



But I digress.

The real reason I'm responding is that for your FIRST track day, it won't really make any difference. That first day will be more like the best road ride you've ever been on. You won't be dragging a knee or doing anything you aren't already doing, though you'll think you are.

Here's the point:

For that first day, getting the suspension right is pretty much at the bottom of the priority list.

1) Don't crash
2) Ride safe
3) Have fun
4) Be humble and learn all you can
...
...
...
87) Tweak/modify your suspension

The first day is going to be such a rush and flood of information and sensation (all of which is good) that simplifying and focusing on what's important should be the first thing on your mind. As long as your equipment is safe, then forget it. Pay attention to THE RIDE.


I'm not saying you shouldn't optimize your suspension. You should. But don't put the cart before the horse.

Look at it this way (and this is just IMHO): Suspension tweaks are made to correct bike behavior that's not optimal. They're not some magic bullet that will turn you in to Valentino. So if you're not riding hard or fast enough to have the bike misbehave in hte first place, then a suspension mod is not required.

So what does "misbehave" mean? For example:
- Forks bottom because you're braking harder than you ever have in your life.
- Lack of confidence when cornering hard because of poor damping or compliance.

And so on.

Chances are VERY good that you won't reach those limits on your first day.

You've already got a lot on your plate:

- Bike transport (trailer, ramps, chocks, etc. etc. etc... don't leave it til the night before)
- Personal safety gear
- Bike prep (e.g. safety wiring, etc)
- Track environment (ez-up, tool kit, stands, table, chair, misc. supplies, what do you really need to bring?)

Just my $0.02, but K.I.S.S. and focus on the basics to begin with. THEN go and start tweaking to go faster.

PS: Go find yourself a @csmith12 to hang with. That makes ALL the difference on your first day. Promise!

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Looks like good guidance, not that I'm in any way an expert in the dark art of suspension. Heck, I'm still convinced that Sir Bedevere was correct when he proved to King Arthur that the Earth is banana-shaped.



But I digress.

The real reason I'm responding is that for your FIRST track day, it won't really make any difference. That first day will be more like the best road ride you've ever been on. You won't be dragging a knee or doing anything you aren't already doing, though you'll think you are.

Here's the point:

For that first day, getting the suspension right is pretty much at the bottom of the priority list.

1) Don't crash
2) Ride safe
3) Have fun
4) Be humble and learn all you can
...
...
...
87) Tweak/modify your suspension

The first day is going to be such a rush and flood of information and sensation (all of which is good) that simplifying and focusing on what's important should be the first thing on your mind. As long as your equipment is safe, then forget it. Pay attention to THE RIDE.


I'm not saying you shouldn't optimize your suspension. You should. But don't put the cart before the horse.

Look at it this way (and this is just IMHO): Suspension tweaks are made to correct bike behavior that's not optimal. They're not some magic bullet that will turn you in to Valentino. So if you're not riding hard or fast enough to have the bike misbehave in hte first place, then a suspension mod is not required.

So what does "misbehave" mean? For example:
- Forks bottom because you're braking harder than you ever have in your life.
- Lack of confidence when cornering hard because of poor damping or compliance.

And so on.

Chances are VERY good that you won't reach those limits on your first day.

great advice! I definitely am just trying to get a baseline to start with. And hopefully as my skills increase I can push the limits of the bike. I just didnt want anything that would be detrimental in the beginning. Sounds like the best bang for my buck and to provide a stable platform to learn on would be correct springs for my weight and oil and then go from there when (if) my skills dictate more.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

here are videos of the tracks I will ride

Cresson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDoHL5Iyvns
Eagles Canyon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sms2_pzIc-c
Hallett https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHmOJdpbTzs
Texas World https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBgFyysMaQs

Turned many a laps on all except Hallett, which my brother raced on for the first time this year and claims it may be his new favorite track - so I need to plan a trip. TWS may be my favorite track minus the fact it tried to kill me - its just so fast, and I like Cresson a lot too. ECR is a disaster right now, surface is horrible. Supposed to be getting fixed but not holding my breath. Too bad as well cause it has some fun elevation changes.

Originally Posted by daverdfw

great advice! I definitely am just trying to get a baseline to start with. And hopefully as my skills increase I can push the limits of the bike. I just didnt want anything that would be detrimental in the beginning. Sounds like the best bang for my buck and to provide a stable platform to learn on would be correct springs for my weight and oil and then go from there when (if) my skills dictate more.

Yep springs, oil, and tires as a great budget starting point.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

great advice! I definitely am just trying to get a baseline to start with. And hopefully as my skills increase I can push the limits of the bike. I just didnt want anything that would be detrimental in the beginning. Sounds like the best bang for my buck and to provide a stable platform to learn on would be correct springs for my weight and oil and then go from there when (if) my skills dictate more.

Yeah, go for it but to be honest, for the first day it won't be the bike that holds you back. It'll be you. The baseline won't make much if any difference. You'll learn so much that first day it'll astonish you.

Seriously... that whole first day is about getting comfortable riding on the track.

PS: If you can, do two days back-to-back. The second day, what you discovered the first day really starts to pay off.

My big surprise that first weekend? Chicken strips GONE by the end of the second day. I never expected that.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Yeah, go for it but to be honest, for the first day it won't be the bike that holds you back. It'll be you. The baseline won't make much if any difference. You'll learn so much that first day it'll astonish you.

Seriously... that whole first day is about getting comfortable riding on the track.

PS: If you can, do two days back-to-back. The second day, what you discovered the first day really starts to pay off.

My big surprise that first weekend? Chicken strips GONE by the end of the second day. I never expected that.

Yeah I plan on doing an entire weekend sat and sunday.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

...
Yep springs, oil, and tires as a great budget starting point.

You may have already covered it and thus didn't mention it in this thread, but I'd second/emphasize this suggestion of quality tires. Modify from the ground up.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by toEleven

You may have already covered it and thus didn't mention it in this thread, but I'd second/emphasize this suggestion of quality tires. Modify from the ground up.

oh yeah, first day will be SC2's not going to cheap out there.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

oh yeah, first day will be SC2's not going to cheap out there.

Hmmm, have you purchased them already? I may suggest steering you in a different direction if you have not. The SC line of tires is a DOT race tire, which has a pretty specific target operating range. They tend to like warmers (although not 100% required) and are a bit picky about pressures.

I would suggest a hypersport tire like the S20 EVO, or 003RS, or even a DRII setup for a first tire trackday without warmers. Just a thought. Admittedly you may have warmers and or be very familiar with the SC line of tires; if so please disregard.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Hmmm, have you purchased them already? I may suggest steering you in a different direction if you have not. The SC line of tires is a DOT race tire, which has a pretty specific target operating range. They tend to like warmers (although not 100% required) and are a bit picky about pressures.

I would suggest a hypersport tire like the S20 EVO, or 003RS, or even a DRII setup for a first tire trackday without warmers. Just a thought. Admittedly you may have warmers and or be very familiar with the SC line of tires; if so please disregard.

yeah good point, the guys I will be at the track with have warmers and generators and all that but It might not be a bad idea to start lower on the tires and build up as my skill does.

[Aufitt]

Unless you are straight into the advanced group and running lap record pace, stock is fine

We race stock 250/300 production in Au and the pace is faster than any track day, let alone novice.

DR2 or S20 and you're good to go for many years.

[Sirref]

S20 > DR2

I'm shocked I found a set of bridgestones that I like after riding with awful bt-003r's (could have been a pressure issue but I still don't like the tire)

supercorsa front/dr2 rear is best though
and the dunlop alpha 13s are fantastic if you can get your hands on them

I'd run the S20 until you need the pirelli though, as they don't need warmers (they still like warmers)

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Sirref

S20 > DR2

I'm shocked I found a set of bridgestones that I like after riding with awful bt-003r's (could have been a pressure issue but I still don't like the tire)

supercorsa front/dr2 rear is best though
and the dunlop alpha 13s are fantastic if you can get your hands on them

I'd run the S20 until you need the pirelli though, as they don't need warmers (they still like warmers)

so you are talking about the Bridgestone S20's? What size rear for track days? a 140?

[Sirref]

yes bridgestones
140 rear is good, I think that's what I ran

[ROADandTRACK]

We have a few different options for 250 suspension.

Most of the 250's that have won or set 250 track records in CMRA have been on our suspension since 2007.

VonHertell.com for more info or PM and I can answer questions if interested.

BTW - the gsxr shock does not work near as good when just changing dogbones as it does when we make it the proper length and revalve it for the EX linkage.

[GregS]

Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK

We have a few different options for 250 suspension.

Most of the 250's that have won or set 250 track records in CMRA have been on our suspension since 2007.

VonHertell.com for more info or PM and I can answer questions if interested.

BTW - the gsxr shock does not work near as good when just changing dogbones as it does when we make it the proper length and revalve it for the EX linkage.

+1 for Keith at Road and Track. He did the suspension on my 300 and it really made a huge difference.

[csmith12]

Wow... lots of good options here.

Context is important though... Don't forget guys/gals that David hasn't eluded to setting his bike up to set lap records and competitive racing, but I do agree that a rider should do what makes sense to keep the bike more capable than the rider or at least on the same level. If not... riders end up overbuying on parts... and never take full advantage of the parts purchased, ie see the return on investment. But... if your gunna spend $400 on a shock, might as well spend a bit more and get the best possible for the later resell value. It just makes fiscal sense, even if the rider will never see the true ability of the part.

For example; A N level rider has an entire season budget of 1k and needs front end work. They can spend $700 on the front and only get to see the track 1 time :\. Or... spend $250 on springs and oil and get to the track 3 or 4 times. Yin and yang ya see...

[SLOWn60]

Just had a quick read through this thread.

My suggestion for David may be similar to Chris's; this is David's first track day. Don't spend much fixing a problem you aren't yet aware of!
Your best value would be to take a track school riding course and get the basics drilled into you. Then; as your riding improves: you will start pushing limits and have a better idea of what needs upgrading.

I did several track days with my bone stock 250 and though I was definitely at and sometimes past the edges of the bikes limits; I was impressed as heck at what the bike could do in stock form. And trust me; I am way bigger than you are! Unless you're a really good rider; it's likely the bike will be fine for your first few ventures. Spend your first few dollars on training & track time.
Rubber & suspension are the next items on the list.
That's my 2 cents.

[jzjames]

Great info thanks.

[Sirref]

The stock suspension on my 300 has held up very well to added pace

I run A group pace on the bike with stock suspension and placed 3rd in my race series across the season while being one of two riders in the entire series of 26 racers who rides with stock suspension. I won't be next season since I love the feel of good suspension but running on stock suspension has taught me a lot that applied very easily as I rode other 250s

[cbinker]

Ive been running a stock rear shock and stiffer front forks, Ive had the gsxr shock, but there is no movement in the suspension, so i kept reverting to the stock spring, i tried the r6 shock and again no movement. I sent my bike off with Andy Palmer after the last race weekend and he is going to do some work to make the r6 shock fit and have movement. and for reference, I am running with others that have spent more money then me at racing.

[InvisiBill]

I'm not an expert, but I've done a few things to my suspension.

Keep in mind that the spring lets the suspension bounce, and the damping system slows down that bouncing. If your spring is too soft, things will be moving too far/fast, and the damping system will be working harder to try to control that excess movement. If the spring is too stiff, it won't be moving enough, resulting in skipping. With the springs matched to the load they're supporting, the bike will be bouncing the proper amount to begin with.

I think this explanation does a good job of showing the basic science behind the shock/spring and how they perform two separate functions, even if they're assembled into one unit.

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

The right rate spring is a required foundation for proper suspension action. It is the primary source of taking your KE (mass of you and the bike moving in relationship to the mass of the earth); storing it as PE and releasing some of it as your KE state changes.

A damper transforms the unwanted KE/PE into thermal energy and spreads it to another media (air). A damper being adjusted up and down to transform more or less of that energy cannot correct a spring that does not have the capability of handling the energy input needed to be stored sufficiently. In the same token but on the opposite side, a spring that does not deflect because it stores and returns KE far to quickly will not allow the tire to track the surface of the road/track and no amount of increase/decrease in damper function is going to change that.

Spring first -> Dampen second

My first suggestion is to change the fork springs. While the NewGen's springs aren't as soft as those on the PreGen or 500, you're still looking at ~40% stiffer for your weight. This isn't a matter of you trying to tweak your spring rate up or down a notch to squeeze out a slightly faster lap, the stock springs are definitely sub-optimal for your weight. Going with 54% stiffer fork springs to match my weight, with absolutely no other changes, was the best thing I've done for my street bike.

The stock rear spring rate is actually pretty close for your weight according to RaceTech's calculator. The shock is a simple, cheap unit but at least the spring is in the right neighborhood (unlike the fork springs). The '06 GSXR 600/750 springs are a closer match to your weight than any of the 1000 springs, so you'll probably want to swap the original spring back on it. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...02#post1023302 I'm actually using a stock NewGen shock in my 500 for the stiffer spring. Some day I'll get around to installing that Penske that's just been sitting here for nearly two years...

I have Intiminators, and they do improve the damping. I feel they're a more advanced solution than Emulators, since they're actually replacing the fixed-orifice damping system with a shim stack like actual cartridge forks use. The inertia valve used on the "overflow" system is great on the street (since it opens when the wheel bumps up, but not when the chassis is pushing down). The Emulator's valve will open anytime the pressure in the fork exceeds the spring pressure, regardless of the source of that pressure. I sold my brand new Emulators to buy the Intiminators, so I don't have any firsthand experience to compare to the two. I see them like carbs vs. EFI. Carbs have been around for a long time and a lot of people have mastered the tricks for getting the results they want, whereas EFI offers a lot more potential for accuracy and precision, but not as many people know as much about working with it. But just to say it again, the fork springs were half the cost, easier to install, and helped more.

The fork springs are far enough off for your weight that I'd consider it fixing an incorrect part. Sure, the stock parts will function, but they're obviously not ideal. The other things I would consider tweaks to further improve the handling (and therefore not necessarily things that need to be done right away).

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by cbinker

Ive been running a stock rear shock and stiffer front forks, Ive had the gsxr shock, but there is no movement in the suspension, so i kept reverting to the stock spring, i tried the r6 shock and again no movement. I sent my bike off with Andy Palmer after the last race weekend and he is going to do some work to make the r6 shock fit and have movement. and for reference, I am running with others that have spent more money then me at racing.

The r6 shock has to be adjusted once taken from a 6 and put on the 250 or it will be horribly too stiff. H/L speed compression will have to be adjusted as well as rebound. Otherwise, it will feel like riding a sawhorse. If it doesn't move at all, the spring is wwwaaaaayyyyy too stiff or the hydraulics are totally closed. Same deal with a gsxr shock too.

Beware that sooooo many riders do crazy stuff with the preload. When moving to these 600 shocks, get your sag right first!!!!

[bruce71198]

My heads spinning....

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Sirref

The stock suspension on my 300 has held up very well to added pace

I run A group pace on the bike with stock suspension and placed 3rd in my race series across the season while being one of two riders in the entire series of 26 racers who rides with stock suspension. I won't be next season since I love the feel of good suspension but running on stock suspension has taught me a lot that applied very easily as I rode other 250s

You also weigh about as much as a wet chipmunk.

I used to be that skinny. Not any more, man.

[Sirref]

I'm still too heavy for the stock springs

[tgold]

Regardless of skill level or personal objectives (racing or just going "fast"), IMO riding on a track is primarily about having fun. With that in mind, I use my own experience starting out as a reference: Back in the day when I started racing, you couldn't buy cartridge emulators because there weren't even cartridges to emulate. For the most part, you just rode on the track with whatever the bike came with from the factory. Anyway, the point is that I raced bikes for a long time before I even knew what a good suspension setup felt like. When I finally did get on a bike that actually felt good and I got feedback (primarily from the front end) my confidence went way up. Enough so that I got my first race win. But it isn't really about that race win, it was about the confidence I gained when I got on something with good suspension. IMO starting out with suspension upgrades like proper springs and emulators will make the track experience more enjoyable no matter what the pace. Sometimes as a newer rider we don't know what we are missing and we don't know why we aren't confident going around corners. It's like something's not exactly right. We may not be able to put our finger on it, but we are not confident so we go at a pace that we know we can get through the corners and still have fun.
Properly setup suspension isn't just a matter of "being fast enough to need it" It can also be a matter of safety. Motorcycles do not like inputs that produce big changes in chassis attitude, and lets face it folks. It takes time and practice to attain the finesse that it takes to get a motorcycle around that track quickly. Riders that are not experienced at track riding are more likely to overcontrol and make those large chassis inputs that overwhelm the suspension making it more likely that they will crash. I'll reiterate that I'm not necessarily talking about racing, just being out on the track and going faster than you would normally go on the street. One might also argue that one crash due to subpar equipment could easily cost more than the price of springs, emulators, and oil. Not only that, properly set up emulators on a 250 Ninja can take you all the way to race-winning expert pace. Why not enjoy it from the start?

That brings me to tires. You can certainly start track riding on street oriented tires, but the greater level of grip provided by racing tires also adds up to provide for a greater margin of error than street tires for the same reasons that I gave for upgraded suspension: Newer track riders are the ones most likely to overwhelm the available level grip that the tires are providing because of large inputs. BTW, these inputs could include, braking, throttle (Yes, even on a 250 Ninja), leaning, body movement etc.

One of the arguments that I get is that race tires wear out too fast. Well, tire life is directly related to your overall pace, so if you're not going fast overall, then the tires aren't going to wear out quickly. But you still have a greater level of grip available should the need arise. Another argument is that they are more sensitive to temperature. Yeah, but even without warmers within two laps at an expert pace and the tires are going to be plenty warm to go as fast as you want, so it's not going to be a big deal for a novice track rider. So what about early in the day when the track is cold? It doesn't matter if you're an expert or novice, you still need to be aware of the track conditions and set your pace accordingly. Race tires have a level of grip that also translates to better feel for what is going between the bike and the track. This is another thing that translates to confidence and confidence translates to fun.

[bruce71198]

^^^^^well said

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by tgold

[Good stuff]

Shameless promotion: Timm is up for Member of the Month. Go vote!

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

So I have been doing a TON of reading here and am trying to get a good basic suspension setup before my first trackday next spring.

Here is what I have so far, a 2009 Ninja 250 completely stock.

I have acquired a 2006 GSXR rear shock, and a GSXR 1000 spring installed. I have new dogbones coming to compensate and restore stock ride height

I am 6'0 220 lb without gear. I hope to lose some weight, but lets pretend I wont.

For the fronts, I am hearing a lot of conflict around using RaceTech GVE or Intiminator or nothing at all, and just going with springs and proper oil.

If i go the springs and oil route. it looks like for my weight i need .90 or .95 spring rate springs, and 10wt oil and preload adjusters

Am i on the right path here? Or am I missing something obvious? Thanks!

So Dave, which GSXR1000 spring did you use? The 05-06 spring, or the 03-04 spring? I also have a 06 GSXR600 shock, and I tried a 03 GSXR600 spring, but the OD was too large for me to feel comfortable swapping it on there. Was the GSXR1000 spring the same OD as your 06 GSXR600 spring? Let me know, as I am curious at which one you used. Thanks!
Charlie
BTW, get thread and a lot of good stuff here!

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

So Dave, which GSXR1000 spring did you use? The 05-06 spring, or the 03-04 spring? I also have a 06 GSXR600 shock, and I tried a 03 GSXR600 spring, but the OD was too large for me to feel comfortable swapping it on there. Was the GSXR1000 spring the same OD as your 06 GSXR600 spring? Let me know, as I am curious at which one you used. Thanks!
Charlie
BTW, get thread and a lot of good stuff here!

I used the bottom adjustment ring from the gsxr1000 on the 600 shock so it would be big enough to hold down the bigger diamater spring