ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > General > Ninjettes At Speed

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 19th, 2020, 08:25 PM   #1
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
upshifting to turn bike

Danno and mechanikrazy, i hope your reading and anybody else please chime in.
i had a convesation with really fast guy at a high level, on turn 14 and 15 at thill.
he enters turn 14 just out side of mid track and pretty much runs mid track thru turn 14 when he opens the throttle he goes wide open on the exit of 14 and thru the apex of turn 15. i asked how he was hitting the apex at turn 15 "are you checking the throttle to get the bike pointed" his response was "absolutly not, i throw a short shift in, it unloads the bike, it turns and the throttle stays pegged to the stops".
anybody use this technique? wondering how it works on a small bike.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote




Old October 21st, 2020, 10:11 AM   #2
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You mentioned this "difficulty turning" before and I'm wondering where it's coming from. Let's examine what that guy is saying and doing:

Which bike is he riding?
"i throw a short shift in" - so coming out of 14, he shifts up? What RPMs is he starting this drive?
"it unloads the bike, it turns" - I take it he means it unloads front-end? Turning between 14 & 15 should be already set up by this point.
"and the throttle stays pegged to the stops." - so full-throttle out of 14 and through 15?

Technique will vary depending upon bike. I'm 15s/lap faster @TH on my CBR600RR compared to Ninjette and I can't do above or I'll run off between 14 & 15 backwards. So I assume he's on Ninjette of some sort. Or bike with traction-control so it doesn't spin back tyre no matter how much throttle is applied.

This "difficulty turning" you express seems similar to another guy with big Ducati missing apexes and running wide on exit. I think even before those steps above, you want to examine things that are occuring beforehand, separate into individual sequences. I think by time "upshift and unload front-end" occurs, it's already too late:

1. braking into corner - don't try to do too much at once. Rather than trying to brake later and later, work on braking harder and harder first from same braking-marker. This alleviates your brain from having to make too many changes at once. Will find you'll have some extra space and time when you've slowed down sufficiently for corner, which is very, very good to set up next step. Use the overhead bridge for braking-marker rather than tar-snakes so that you can get all braking done by time you get to turn-in point. This frees up your brain to focus on most important part next.

2. turn-in - late-apex T14 to set up for 15. What you want to work on is faster and faster lean-over speed. The faster you go, the faster you need to go from straight-up to max-lean. So work on flicking bike over, not gentle nudge, but forceful push on inside bar. Also work on leaning tiny bit more. I think that's answer for your "difficulty turning" issue. You're trying to go faster, but same turn-in/flick-over speed will cause you to miss apexes and run wide. Parking-lot practice with figure-8 and U-turn boxes are great to get faster turn-in speeds.

3. upshift out of 14, full-throttle through 15 - this part is easy once you've got turn-in done.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 21st, 2020, 12:29 PM   #3
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
You mentioned this "difficulty turning" before and I'm wondering where it's coming from. Let's examine what that guy is saying and doing:

Which bike is he riding?
"i throw a short shift in" - so coming out of 14, he shifts up? What RPMs is he starting this drive?
"it unloads the bike, it turns" - I take it he means it unloads front-end? Turning between 14 & 15 should be already set up by this point.
"and the throttle stays pegged to the stops." - so full-throttle out of 14 and through 15?

Technique will vary depending upon bike. I'm 15s/lap faster @TH on my CBR600RR compared to Ninjette and I can't do above or I'll run off between 14 & 15 backwards. So I assume he's on Ninjette of some sort. Or bike with traction-control so it doesn't spin back tyre no matter how much throttle is applied.

This "difficulty turning" you express seems similar to another guy with big Ducati missing apexes and running wide on exit. I think even before those steps above, you want to examine things that are occuring beforehand, separate into individual sequences. I think by time "upshift and unload front-end" occurs, it's already too late:

1. braking into corner - don't try to do too much at once. Rather than trying to brake later and later, work on braking harder and harder first from same braking-marker. This alleviates your brain from having to make too many changes at once. Will find you'll have some extra space and time when you've slowed down sufficiently for corner, which is very, very good to set up next step. Use the overhead bridge for braking-marker rather than tar-snakes so that you can get all braking done by time you get to turn-in point. This frees up your brain to focus on most important part next.

2. turn-in - late-apex T14 to set up for 15. What you want to work on is faster and faster lean-over speed. The faster you go, the faster you need to go from straight-up to max-lean. So work on flicking bike over, not gentle nudge, but forceful push on inside bar. Also work on leaning tiny bit more. I think that's answer for your "difficulty turning" issue. You're trying to go faster, but same turn-in/flick-over speed will cause you to miss apexes and run wide. Parking-lot practice with figure-8 and U-turn boxes are great to get faster turn-in speeds.

3. upshift out of 14, full-throttle through 15 - this part is easy once you've got turn-in done.
I'll give you more on my riding when I get home. what I meant about the short shift was the quick shifter killing power actually loads the front and makes the bike turn.
He is also on a liter .bike. Daniel this is kind of hard for me to explain. Basically his roll on for the front straight starts at 14 he does not check up throttle for 15. To get the bike to come back in at 15 he throws the short shift in before the Apex to tighten his line back up .
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 21st, 2020, 05:42 PM   #4
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
No I got it . On big bikes, lower-gears can generate more torque that can run you wide. Shifting up a gear gives you less torque at contact patch and more traction for cornering and turning (friction-circle). From video you sent, note that his lean-angle is fairly constant once he's entered T14. He's already at maximum lean and actually decreases it slightly as he adds throttle heading towards T15.

There's traction-control happening here, so don't assume that "full throttle" application is what's giving speed through there. It's getting maximum-lean early on, so that you can get on full-throttle as early as possible before 15 for maximum drive down straight. The slowest part of sequence (real apex) is imaginary point in middle of track right after 14. Then it's full-throttle, decreasing lean and increasing radius after that as throttle is added. If you get full-throttle in 14, that's worth at least 10-15mph more on straight compared to full-throttle after "apex" of 15.

On Ninjette, there's really not enough power to upset suspension with weight-transfers. I'm pretty much full-throttle going into 14 after letting up brakes. Yeah, there's upshift to 4th after redlining 3rd-gear in between 14 & 15.


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; October 21st, 2020 at 08:01 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old October 21st, 2020, 08:56 PM   #5
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
you do beautiful work danno, great analasys.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2020, 06:02 AM   #6
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Cool thread y'alls got going here.

Said rider could also be really good at this technique.

Link to original page on YouTube.

The read of much of this thread sounds real close to the skills of A riders at Mid-Ohio. Much, much different track layout, but nearly the same sequence of events.

The entry line to Mid-O's carousel looks very similar to the above graphic, the hook turn technique can be to tighten the line mid corner to tighten the line for the very late apex of the carousel. Then you are faced with a very quick chicane that dumps you on the front straight. We short shift squarely in the middle of the chicane to stay in the throttle and get the bike online for a tight apex onto the straight. There is about 8ft of elevation change (downhill) to sweeten the deal.

Have a go at the video and compare to what you are seeing to gain additional knowledge. Sometimes riders leave out the little things or just take them for granted if you know what I mean... and it just takes knowing what to look for.

Bonus: DannoXYZ mentioned that the rider reduces lean angle just a bit at the exit of the turn. So many riders are notoriously lazy at the exit of a turn, perhaps there is another rider skill at play here? Hint: yes there is.

csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old October 22nd, 2020, 08:17 AM   #7
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshooter View Post
you do beautiful work danno, great analasys.
Thanks!
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2020, 08:20 AM   #8
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hook turns! That's term I was looking for! It always reminds of this drawing tool my dad had on his drafting table, the French Curve. Basically non-circular curve where tightest amount of turning is done early, to let you get on throttle sooner and "extend" straightaway earlier into corner. I could've used one to help me draw line through T14-15 above. Instead, I just traced over riders shown on course.



This also reminds me of turn-2 at Laguna Seca. For longest time I was hugging inside entering 2. Then I found video from Dave Moss where he shows to stay mid-track entering 2 to do late-apex coming out. Lets me get on throttle entering 2 instead of at exit.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 23rd, 2020, 06:33 AM   #9
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Cool thread y'alls got going here.

Said rider could also be really good at this technique.

Link to original page on YouTube.

The read of much of this thread sounds real close to the skills of A riders at Mid-Ohio. Much, much different track layout, but nearly the same sequence of events.

The entry line to Mid-O's carousel looks very similar to the above graphic, the hook turn technique can be to tighten the line mid corner to tighten the line for the very late apex of the carousel. Then you are faced with a very quick chicane that dumps you on the front straight. We short shift squarely in the middle of the chicane to stay in the throttle and get the bike online for a tight apex onto the straight. There is about 8ft of elevation change (downhill) to sweeten the deal.

Have a go at the video and compare to what you are seeing to gain additional knowledge. Sometimes riders leave out the little things or just take them for granted if you know what I mean... and it just takes knowing what to look for.

Bonus: DannoXYZ mentioned that the rider reduces lean angle just a bit at the exit of the turn. So many riders are notoriously lazy at the exit of a turn, perhaps there is another rider skill at play here? Hint: yes there is.

good video csmith. im going to look into this next track day. report to follow.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 24th, 2020, 09:58 AM   #10
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Here's Jordan doing 2:11 @ Thunderhill on Ninja 250 (and our buddies Pao and Suoa). Notice he's full-throttle from exit of 14 with no let-off at 15. So straightaway actually starts at exit of 14. There's no issue with turning between 14 & 15 because tightest curve is going into 14, then it's all reducing lean and adding throttle after that. Notice that bike stays leaned over between 14 & 15 because that's part of single hook-turn. Use rumble-strips to widen curve through 15 to stay on power.

Use link below video to jump to 14-15 sequence.

Link to original page on YouTube.


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; October 24th, 2020 at 11:46 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 24th, 2020, 10:52 AM   #11
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Here's Jordan doing 2:11 @ Thunderhill on Ninja 250 (and our buddies Pao and Suoa). Notice he's full-throttle from exit of 14 with no let-off at 15. So straightaway actually starts at exit of 14. There's no issue with turning between 14 & 15 because tightest curve is going into 14, then it's all reducing lean and adding throttle after that. Notice that bike stays leaned over between 14 & 15 because that's part of single hook-turn. Use rumble-strips to widen curve through 15 to stay on power.

Link to original page on YouTube.

This is what I'm trying to achieve Danno.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 24th, 2020, 11:29 AM   #12
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Next time out, I’ll follow you around with camera. Really helpful for improving!
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 24th, 2020, 09:26 PM   #13
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Do you remember this session with Jeff’s entourage from Reno? I made sure to stay behind you whole time for good training footage. See if you spot anything useful for improvement.

Link to original page on YouTube.

DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 25th, 2020, 03:22 PM   #14
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Do you remember this session with Jeff’s entourage from Reno? I made sure to stay behind you whole time for good training footage. See if you spot anything useful for improvement.

Link to original page on YouTube.

you pulled that out of the archives my lines have seriously changed since then, and i just got better. nowadays i can hit my apexs except for turn 15
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Upshifting sticks ryan.chin 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 18 August 12th, 2012 08:14 PM
Upshifting... supermanzdead Riding Skills 3 October 30th, 2010 06:25 PM
[sportrider - riding] - Riding Skills Series: Sport Bike Clutchless Upshifting Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 April 13th, 2010 04:00 AM
[sportrider - riding] - Riding Skills Series: Sport Bike Clutchless Upshifting Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 March 29th, 2010 11:40 PM
[sportrider - riding] - Riding Skills Series: Sport Bike Clutchless Upshifting Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 January 26th, 2010 08:10 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48 AM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.