Valve adjustment no good?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

That is a fantastic idea!

Unfortunately for me, i have a garage that barely fits in a Dodge Caravan, put a bike in there as well and you can't squeeze by...

Simple, make the minivan stay outside.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Simple, make the minivan stay outside.

Not up to me :P

In any case, i will update when i get the bolt and the spring, for now i wait :\

Bolt and carb vacuum spring came in today, gonna go pick up tomorrow!

[The_big_dill]

Well i tried all i can get at the hardware store for screwdrivers (that would fit) and i just can't apply enough torque to get that pilot jet out. And they have started stripping...

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Well i tried all i can get at the hardware store for screwdrivers (that would fit) and i just can't apply enough torque to get that pilot jet out. And they have started stripping...

Maybe @choneofakind could help here.

............ in the meanwhile, check this thread:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ight=pilot+jet

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Maybe @choneofakind could help here.

............ in the meanwhile, check this thread:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ight=pilot+jet

Drywall bits will fit into that cavity for the pilot jet? I took a look at home depot, and saw them on the American one, but they don't exist in the Canadian one.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Well i tried all i can get at the hardware store for screwdrivers (that would fit) and i just can't apply enough torque to get that pilot jet out. And they have started stripping...

The trick with a lot of this stuff is to use high quality tools. I use a 1/8" flat head screwdriver. Its never stripped or deformed. I saw a guy on youtube use a larger screwdriver with the sides ground off. That might give you a better fit. And No, do not try a philips bit on a pilot jet - use a flat head only.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The trick with a lot of this stuff is to use high quality tools. I use a 1/8" flat head screwdriver. Its never stripped or deformed. I saw a guy on youtube use a larger screwdriver with the sides ground off. That might give you a better fit. And No, do not try a philips bit on a pilot jet - use a flat head only.

Good news:



My only flathead, my favourite one did the job. I used a file to grind a bit off the sides, but in the end, it fit.

I got a cramp in my hand trying to remove those pilots though... As in i turn so hard that something pulled. Mind you, it never slipped! It was just very tight, that when it eventually budged, there was a loud tick as if i loosened something that was overtightened and has not been removed since 1987.

From that picture you can also see how much i had to pull out the idle mixture screw on the right to get it idling properly.

I will go put it back together, thanks for your continued support and suggestions thus far, been a great help.

Will update on results.

[n4mwd]

Looks like one of your main jets got deformed too. The nice thing about those is that you can remove the holder with a socket wrench. If the pilots are deformed, then you should think about replacing them with new.

Also looks like the pilots were corroded a little. That would explain why they were stuck. The guy who owned the bike before you probably let it set unridden too long.

If you haven't already, think about installing an inline fuel filter between the tank and carbs when you put it back.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Looks like one of your main jets got deformed too. The nice thing about those is that you can remove the holder with a socket wrench. If the pilots are deformed, then you should think about replacing them with new.

Also looks like the pilots were corroded a little. That would explain why they were stuck. The guy who owned the bike before you probably let it set unridden too long.

If you haven't already, think about installing an inline fuel filter between the tank and carbs when you put it back.

Great reminder, thanks!

I hate how little variety of pretty much everything we have in Canada compared to you guys in the US...

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Great reminder, thanks!

I hate how little variety of pretty much everything we have in Canada compared to you guys in the US...

Does amazon ship there? That's where I got my last filters from because the local hardware store isn't carrying them any more.

STENS 120-562
Amazon Link

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Does amazon ship there? That's where I got my last filters from because the local hardware store isn't carrying them any more.

STENS 120-562
Amazon Link

Yes they do ship here, but import taxes and shipping is going to bring that price to $20-$30.

Its ok, i will have a look here.

I spent an hour extracting the old bolt today and finally got it out, will put up a picture later. As i was getting rid of any shavings, i had one of those tubes from the compressed air can fall into the engine...

I took both camshafts off, all the caps off to get at it again and luckily my sister got it out with a pair of needle nose pliers, i was impressed!

Its all back together now, but the chain is more loose than it originally was, i took off the tensioner one more time and made sure the mechanism was free to move, and it was... I checked timing and i think i am 1 tooth off, so before i started using 4 letter words i decided to take a break.

[The_big_dill]

Spent the day after school today and put the bike together properly once and for all...

Valves adjusted, carbs clean, strong spark on both plugs, fuel flowing through petcock, plenty of gasoline, battery running strong.

Crank, crank, crank... and it still does not want to start. At one point it did stumble for maybe 1 or 2 revolutions and then died again.

After the plenty of cranking with different amounts of choke and throttle, i decided to pull out the plugs and see if they are fouling. The left plug (cylinder 1) was fouled (Black) while the right one (cylinder 2) was clean.

Here is my train of thought:

The first time i pulled apart the carbs before this season, i was not able to get the pilot jets off. After putting it back, i had to adjust the idle mixture screw for cylinder 1 carb and pull it way out (very rich) to compensate for the (I suspect) clogged pilot. Now that i did clean the pilots, there is plenty of fuel flowing and is far too rich for cylinder 1 to ignite any mixture, fouling the plug.

So this brings me to an important question:

If one of the cylinders cannot ignite the mixture, will the engine be able to start up on just one cylinder?

Should i screw both of those idle mixture screws all the way back in and re-adjust the idles? or should i just play around with the one thats way too rich? Any other suggestions on what i can check?

[choneofakind]

Yes, but it won't be easy while cold, it will sound terrible, and it won't stay idling without choke or throttle.

I've run my engine on one cylinder to limp home once. I wouldn't recommend doing it again.



Don't touch the mix screws just yet. Did you remember to put hose on the vacuum nipple of the petcock and suck the hose so that fuel could flow down into the carbs? 10 seconds of applying vacuum is all that's required. If you don't do this, you'll be cranking for a while in order to apply enough vacuum to open then petcock for long enough to fill the bowls.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yes, but it won't be easy while cold, it will sound terrible, and it won't stay idling without choke or throttle.

I've run my engine on one cylinder to limp home once. I wouldn't recommend doing it again.



Don't touch the mix screws just yet. Did you remember to put hose on the vacuum nipple of the petcock and suck the hose so that fuel could flow down into the carbs? 10 seconds of applying vacuum is all that's required. If you don't do this, you'll be cranking for a while in order to apply enough vacuum to open then petcock for long enough to fill the bowls.

I will give it a try tomorrow, and i did not forget to connect that vacuum line to the petcock.

However, the fact that the plug fouled means that it was getting fuel.

If you look at the picture i posted on page 3 of this thread, you can see the difference in the idle mixture screws. I had to do this or else the bike would not idle properly, although when i did do this, the pilots were never cleaned (in fact, i would assume it hasn't been cleaned in several years).

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

I will give it a try tomorrow, and i did not forget to connect that vacuum line to the petcock.

However, the fact that the plug fouled means that it was getting fuel.

If you look at the picture i posted on page 3 of this thread, you can see the difference in the idle mixture screws. I had to do this or else the bike would not idle properly, although when i did do this, the pilots were never cleaned (in fact, i would assume it hasn't been cleaned in several years).

He's not talking about forgetting the vacuum line, he's talking about priming the carbs. By sucking on that line for 10 seconds you save about 2 minutes worth of cranking.

Looks like one of the carbs is still plugged up. Sounds like you missed something. In case nobody said this before, don't use RTV silicone on the carbs for anything. It plugs up the works.

For the mix screws, just set them both at 2.5 turns for now.

But before you go into the carbs, I would check the spark again just as a sanity check.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

He's not talking about forgetting the vacuum line, he's talking about priming the carbs. By sucking on that line for 10 seconds you save about 2 minutes worth of cranking.

Looks like one of the carbs is still plugged up. Sounds like you missed something. In case nobody said this before, don't use RTV silicone on the carbs for anything. It plugs up the works.

For the mix screws, just set them both at 2.5 turns for now.

But before you go into the carbs, I would check the spark again just as a sanity check.

I understand, i was just confirming that i did not forget about the vacuum line, i will try priming it today too.

I did not use anything but carb cleaner on the carbs. The only thing that i did not touch was that air cut valve on the side of the carb as one of the screw heads stripped.

Since the last time it was running, i replaced the vacuum spring that i said was crushed and it did make the tension on the sliders more uniform, if that makes any difference.

I double checked the spark and it is pretty powerful, in other words, i have no trouble telling there is spark.

As i did say though, it did stumble for one or two revs at one point before dieing again.

[n4mwd]

Take a look at this thread to make sure you got all the passages.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Take a look at this thread to make sure you got all the passages.

Well i did suck on that tube, being weary not to inhale too many fumes and when i went to crank the bike, it stumbled for a few revs again and died, then i crank forever with no result.

I removed the carbs to clean again and I got every passage in both directions, carb cleaner came out every hole.

I also got the air cut valve apart and the rubber diaphragm looks like is not as smooth as the rubber diaphragm in the head of each carb.

I let the carb sit in the cleaner overnight and will put it back together tomorrow.

Plugs were not fouled this time though.

Heres hoping that the carb was simply out of tune.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Well i did suck on that tube, being weary not to inhale too many fumes ...

Fumes? There should be no fumes and very little air movement when you suck on the petcock vacuum port. All it does is pull the valve open so the gas will flow. Once it opens, you can plug the tube with your tongue and it will still flow as long as there is still a vacuum in the line.

I forget if it was already mentioned in this thread, but the diaphragms on the top of the carbs are sacred. Don't let them come into contact with any type of carb or parts cleaner. If they are greasy, you can wash them in Dawn dishwashing liquid and let them air dry.

Try starting with the choke off and WOT. See if anything hits.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Fumes? There should be no fumes and very little air movement when you suck on the petcock vacuum port. All it does is pull the valve open so the gas will flow. Once it opens, you can plug the tube with your tongue and it will still flow as long as there is still a vacuum in the line.

I forget if it was already mentioned in this thread, but the diaphragms on the top of the carbs are sacred. Don't let them come into contact with any type of carb or parts cleaner. If they are greasy, you can wash them in Dawn dishwashing liquid and let them air dry.

Try starting with the choke off and WOT. See if anything hits.

Well i gave it a thought, and realized the wrong end of the hose was on... I thought i needed to create a vacuum in the carbs for some reason. My excuse is 4.5 hours of sleep a night this week.

I have heard of how expensive these diaphragms are, and i do take extra care with them. They are the first thing that comes off the carb when i take the carb off the bike, i am even scared to flip the carb or put it on its side as i don't want any gas to get on it. I think your choice of word "Sacred" was perfect, put a smile on my face

I will try putting it back together again today. I had another thought, could the side to side crankshaft play have anything to do with it? It is more audible now, after all the work i did on it. At the risk of sounding stupid, is there any easy way to try and tighten it? I feel like maybe it may have come loose after i got the timing wrong and was pushing on the valves.

[n4mwd]

I wouldn't worry about the crankshaft play for right now.

I don't know for a fact about the diaphragms because I never ruined mine to find out for sure. But everyone says to be careful with them and they are very expensive for a fact.

If the cams are not timed correctly, it could cause the engine not to start. But if its off by more than one or two teeth, it will jam the engine.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I wouldn't worry about the crankshaft play for right now.

I don't know for a fact about the diaphragms because I never ruined mine to find out for sure. But everyone says to be careful with them and they are very expensive for a fact.

If the cams are not timed correctly, it could cause the engine not to start. But if its off by more than one or two teeth, it will jam the engine.

I am just trying to factor out any possible factors that may be stopping the bike from running as i am going crazy.

If the carb cleaning doesn't work i don't know what will...

The thing is, after sitting overnight after the previous carb clean, it stumbled for 1 or 2 revolutions again and then just died.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

I am just trying to factor out any possible factors that may be stopping the bike from running as i am going crazy.

If the carb cleaning doesn't work i don't know what will...

The thing is, after sitting overnight after the previous carb clean, it stumbled for 1 or 2 revolutions again and then just died.

As a sanity check, I suggest that you remove the carbs and then spray starting fluid directly into the engine. One second for each intake. Then immediately try starting it. It should run for a second or or two.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

As a sanity check, I suggest that you remove the carbs and then spray starting fluid directly into the engine. One second for each intake. Then immediately try starting it. It should run for a second or or two.

That is a great idea, it would eliminate the carbs or the engine as being the problem.

Would putting a small amount of fuel work? I am guessing if it is not atomized it won't want to ignite.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

That is a great idea, it would eliminate the carbs or the engine as being the problem.

Would putting a small amount of fuel work? I am guessing if it is not atomized it won't want to ignite.

I suppose, but only if you have some way to squirt it in there. You could also use spray carb cleaner if you are out of starting fluid spray.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I suppose, but only if you have some way to squirt it in there. You could also use spray carb cleaner if you are out of starting fluid spray.

Well, i don't know how effective starting fluid is, but it did not work for me at all.

I took off the boots that lead to the head and sprayed for about 1 second into each hole, went to crank and nothing, not even a stumble.

I even pulled out the plugs and cleaned them and checked for spark (which was good) and tried again, nothing.

[Motofool]

How much do you want for your bike delivered to Florida?

I believe that it is time for a leak down test:
http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by Motofool

How much do you want for your bike delivered to Florida?

I believe that it is time for a leak down test:
http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm

Im not giving up just yet.

Is starting fluid a guarantee that it will fire? As it did not even stumble, while with the carbs on, it did almost start twice.

If cam lobe to rocker clearances are too large, would that cause a problem?

Also, what spark plug size fitting is on the bike? 14mm?

Furthermore, i do not have an air compressor.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Im not giving up just yet.

Is starting fluid a guarantee that it will fire? As it did not even stumble, while with the carbs on, it did almost start twice.

If cam lobe to rocker clearances are too large, would that cause a problem?

Also, what spark plug size fitting is on the bike? 14mm?

Furthermore, i do not have an air compressor.

Great !!!

Can you prepare something like the right picture at the end of the article and connect it to the tire of a car or truck?

Yes, the fluid should ignite, but not if there is no proper compression and if the spark doesn't jump a little before the piston reaches the top with the four valves properly closed and not leaking (end of compression stroke).

It would be helpful if you could rotate the engine by hand and verify that for each cylinder the spark jumps when the four valves are closed (lube of cams away from the rocker arms).

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Great !!!

Can you prepare something like the right picture at the end of the article and connect it to the tire of a car or truck?

Yes, the fluid should ignite, but not if there is no proper compression and if the spark doesn't jump a little before the piston reaches the top with the four valves properly closed and not leaking (end of compression stroke).

It would be helpful if you could rotate the engine by hand and verify that for each cylinder the spark jumps when the four valves are closed (lube of cams away from the rocker arms).

I know the fundamentals of the operation of the engine.

I have a compression tester, but i do not have the correct size adapter for it, mine is too large, is it a 14mm on these enignes?

When you are referring to "spark jumping", do you mean if a spark is present when the cylinder reaches TDC?

Do you want me to check for spark while turning manually and when i feel compression? (See if it sparks on compression stroke)

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

Im not giving up just yet.

Is starting fluid a guarantee that it will fire? As it did not even stumble, while with the carbs on, it did almost start twice.

If cam lobe to rocker clearances are too large, would that cause a problem?

Also, what spark plug size fitting is on the bike? 14mm?

Furthermore, i do not have an air compressor.

Plug size is 10mm. Yes, the starter fluid usually hits when sprayed directly into the engine intake (but not always when sprayed into the airbox). It sort of indicates that the carbs are working at least a little.

Adjusting the valves to the wide side of tolerance makes the bike start very easy.

Here is a video showing how one guy installed his cams. It might help.

Link to original page on YouTube.

One silly question. Are you absolutely sure you used the correct feeler gauges when adjusting the valves? Its easy to get metric and US mixed up and that would produce a similar result to what you have reported.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Plug size is 10mm. Yes, the starter fluid usually hits when sprayed directly into the engine intake (but not always when sprayed into the airbox). It sort of indicates that the carbs are working at least a little.

Adjusting the valves to the wide side of tolerance makes the bike start very easy.

Here is a video showing how one guy installed his cams. It might help.

Link to original page on YouTube.

One silly question. Are you absolutely sure you used the correct feeler gauges when adjusting the valves? Its easy to get metric and US mixed up and that would produce a similar result to what you have reported.

I am 100% sure i used the correct feeler gauges, my gauges show metric and the equivalent US on them.

I have seen that video, and he does a good explanation, but he counts the rivets on the wrong side of the sprockets. If you are counting, your "IN" should be on rivet 1 and "EX" on rivet 33.

I will open the head again and recheck the clearances and the timing, but i don't see how this could be a problem if there is not interference between valves and pistons and i timed it for cylinder number 2.

Another thought is that i forced the crank too hard when turning by hand when the timing was off and it bent something out of shape (like a valve). But even then, the chain just jumped a few teeth. However this is a far-fetched thought.

[n4mwd]

The chain can definitely jump teeth when the CCT is too slack. You can do a leakdown test or compression test. The compression test tends to give false low results on the Ninja. If you do that, then just compare the two cylinders rather than to a specific number.

Make sure its on cyl #2 TDC and with the #2 cam lobes in the "\ /" position.

Its unlikely that you damaged the valves by turning manually. However, one very remote possibility is that the shear key has sheared on the flywheel. This will cause the spark to happen at the wrong time. I say this is a remote possibility because I have never seen it on a Ninja engine before, but I have seen it on other engines. Checking this requires removing the alternator cover and pulling the flywheel so don't check this until you have exhausted all other options.

Any way to get this bike to a Ninja mechanic up there? It might be worth having him do a diagnosis. I can usually find the problem pretty quick myself when I am there in person. A good mechanic should be able to do the same.

Maybe have him do a leakdown test for you.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

I know the fundamentals of the operation of the engine.
........
When you are referring to "spark jumping", do you mean if a spark is present when the cylinder reaches TDC?

Do you want me to check for spark while turning manually and when i feel compression? (See if it sparks on compression stroke)

Take no offense; I was trying to make a visual representation that the proper TDC around which the spark should jump between the plug's electrodes.

You will not feel compression as the spark plug should be out and the cams should be visible to observe each timing.

That was the next test that occurred to me if leakage cannot be verified, just in case such dramatic change in behavior is due to an accidental non-congruence between the sparks and valves times.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Take no offense; I was trying to make a visual representation that the proper TDC around which the spark should jump between the plug's electrodes.

You will not feel compression as the spark plug should be out and the cams should be visible to observe each timing.

That was the next test that occurred to me if leakage cannot be verified, just in case such dramatic change in behavior is due to an accidental non-congruence between the sparks and valves times.

I appreciate the picture, it shows how helpful you are The reason i mentioned that i already understand that is to set the standard and allow you guys to get straight to the point and use technical words with me.

Good point, I guess i have to observe cam positioning for the correct spark, or i can stick a long screw driver down the spark plug hole and watch it rise.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The chain can definitely jump teeth when the CCT is too slack. You can do a leakdown test or compression test. The compression test tends to give false low results on the Ninja. If you do that, then just compare the two cylinders rather than to a specific number.

Make sure its on cyl #2 TDC and with the #2 cam lobes in the "\ /" position.

Its unlikely that you damaged the valves by turning manually. However, one very remote possibility is that the shear key has sheared on the flywheel. This will cause the spark to happen at the wrong time. I say this is a remote possibility because I have never seen it on a Ninja engine before, but I have seen it on other engines. Checking this requires removing the alternator cover and pulling the flywheel so don't check this until you have exhausted all other options.

Any way to get this bike to a Ninja mechanic up there? It might be worth having him do a diagnosis. I can usually find the problem pretty quick myself when I am there in person. A good mechanic should be able to do the same.

Maybe have him do a leakdown test for you.

At the chance of miss communication, cylinder number 2 is the one closer to the cam chain, correct?

I am not going to get a mechanic to look at it, i need to figure this out for myself. And when i do i will make sure that this forum knows of what is happening.

But as the situation stands, i feel like i am missing something simple. As the thing was running fine, even after my valve adjustment. It all went wrong when i had to reset the timing.

I will pull off the head again and check when the thing sparks.

[n4mwd]

Yes, #2 is on the right or clutch side, #1 is on the left or alternator side.

The EX line should be on the front and the IN line should be on the back.

If you have a timing light, you could use it to see if the flywheel sheered and slipped. The light should strobe when its close to TDC and you should be able to see the mark in the view hole. This is much easier than removing the cover.

In my experience with other engines, the flywheel can strip if the nut holding it isn't torqued enough. On the Ninja that is 50 ft-lbs. If you think you might have loosened the nut by turning it manually, this could be the problem.

But the valves are the first place to check.

I still think you should consider letting a pro take a look at it. You are rapidly running out of riding season up there.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, #2 is on the right or clutch side, #1 is on the left or alternator side.

The EX line should be on the front and the IN line should be on the back.

If you have a timing light, you could use it to see if the flywheel sheered and slipped. The light should strobe when its close to TDC and you should be able to see the mark in the view hole. This is much easier than removing the cover.

In my experience with other engines, the flywheel can strip if the nut holding it isn't torqued enough. On the Ninja that is 50 ft-lbs. If you think you might have loosened the nut by turning it manually, this could be the problem.

But the valves are the first place to check.

I still think you should consider letting a pro take a look at it. You are rapidly running out of riding season up there.

Now that you mention it, i re-did the timing yesterday as when i took off the head to check the timing, i noticed that they were not inline with the 2T mark. So i took off everything and redid the timing for the 2T and after putting it back together i sprayed that starting fluid stuff into the intake and after trying to start it, the cranking got quicker and it did start for maybe a second. But why would the 2T mark move from its original position, could it be what you mentioned with the bolt being loose?

How would i go about tightening the flywheel nut?

[n4mwd]

The loose flywheel nut is very remote so I wouldn't bother with it. More than likely, the cam slipped a tooth somewhere. Time to put the carbs back on and go for a ride before it gets too cold.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The loose flywheel nut is very remote so I wouldn't bother with it. More than likely, the cam slipped a tooth somewhere. Time to put the carbs back on and go for a ride before it gets too cold.

If it is loose, could it cause more problems?