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Old June 15th, 2019, 05:52 PM   #1
frost
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Name: Levi
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2009 Ninja 250 has me stooped

This might be lengthy. I just bought the bike a few days ago knowing it doesn’t run. I have removed the carburetors and cleaned them and checked the integrity of all the parts I know to check. The gas tank was bone dry when purchased because ol’ boy drained it out so all fuel is fresh and new with 0 ethanol. The diaphragms are seated right with no tears, the large get in both carbs is open clear as day, the idle jets were clogged but I cleaned those out and they are good to go, the floats work in the carb bowl and I replaced the gasket for it because when filled there was a drip coming from one of them. I also replaced the spark plugs and did what I think in right concerning the idle screws on the bottom of the carbs. I tightened them down to flush them backed them out two complete screw turns. I don’t know what to do next but I attached a video that may help. Thank y’all in advance!
Attached Files
File Type: mov 7472AB70-FAAE-4A34-8C52-1685DCE3AA29.MOV (4.26 MB, 14 views)

Last futzed with by frost; June 15th, 2019 at 06:53 PM. Reason: More work done
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Old June 15th, 2019, 07:44 PM   #2
DannoXYZ
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Hi Levi and welcome to Ninjette!

Have you checked for spark? Do you smell unburned petrol coming out of exhaust?

What you have is clogged carbs. Spray carb-cleaners no longer work to dissolve old dried gas varnish due to removal of chlorinated compounds. You'll have better luck using pee!

1. You need to completely disassemble carbs down to individual components for thorough cleaning back to factory-fresh condition. Down to every last component that cannot be disassembled any further.

2. Soak in ultrasonic cleaner using caustic radioactive solvents for days on end.

3. Use various types of wire to clean out every jet, orifice and fuel-circuit passage in carb-body

4. Clean out all these openings with soda-blasting @ 100000 psi

5. Re-assemble with new O-rings and seals


Please see following links for more details and photos of what needs to be done.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=333573
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=333176
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=334365
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330213
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330960
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323737
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323452
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322846
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321223
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299855
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=280658

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; June 15th, 2019 at 10:04 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2019, 08:00 PM   #3
frost
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Hey Danno! Thank you!
I’ve checked the sparks and they’re running strong in both cylinders. I can’t smell I burned petrol but it won’t idle by itself. I have to spray carb fluid in it to have it idle and even then it stays around 4K RPMs before it dies on me.
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Old June 15th, 2019, 09:29 PM   #4
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Having to spray fluid into the carbs to get it to run is a pretty good sign that the idle circuits are not supplying fuel.
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Old June 15th, 2019, 10:18 PM   #5
frost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Having to spray fluid into the carbs to get it to run is a pretty good sign that the idle circuits are not supplying fuel.
Thank you guys for the insight!! I’ll be sure to read through the forums linked and take one last crack at it before sending the unit to Ducatiman. Carbs aren’t my strong-suite and I’m not too proud to say when I’m out of my own depth.
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Old June 16th, 2019, 07:35 AM   #6
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10 years old already. Do you know if it sat most of its life? Mileage?

Beyond obvious carb service, the petcock may need "attention" as well.

At your service, @frost
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Old June 16th, 2019, 07:48 PM   #7
frost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
10 years old already. Do you know if it sat most of its life? Mileage?

Beyond obvious carb service, the petcock may need "attention" as well.

At your service, @frost
I’ll have it in the mail and on it’s way to you in the next week or so. This time it idled fine (between 1500 and 2000rpms for 20 seconds a turn) but died when I gave it any throttle before then. I took a video inside the carbs on the diaphragm side and could see fuel delivered through the pilot jets and even spurts of fuel when it’d throttle and quickly die thereafter . Diaphragms raises and lowered in sequence for that half a second too. I’m getting closer but at this rate if I keep on I MIGHT have it done come December lol. I’ll submit my info through your website Ducatiman.
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Old June 16th, 2019, 08:24 PM   #8
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we'll communicate logistics and get 'er done without fanfare, quickly and efficiently....the main goal to get you riding ASAP.
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Old June 17th, 2019, 05:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frost View Post
I’ll have it in the mail and on it’s way to you in the next week or so. This time it idled fine (between 1500 and 2000rpms for 20 seconds a turn) but died when I gave it any throttle before then. I took a video inside the carbs on the diaphragm side and could see fuel delivered through the pilot jets and even spurts of fuel when it’d throttle and quickly die thereafter . Diaphragms raises and lowered in sequence for that half a second too. I’m getting closer but at this rate if I keep on I MIGHT have it done come December lol. I’ll submit my info through your website Ducatiman.
Love the way you can use technology to take videos inside the carbs. Love it!
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Old June 17th, 2019, 06:07 AM   #10
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^ amazing stuff

(contact emails exchanged with @frost)
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Old June 17th, 2019, 10:17 AM   #11
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I had a similar problem on an old royal enfield thumper. That ended up being a float height problem. Try setting that? Thankfully I’ve never had any carb problems with my ninjette, once you get her going right make sure you ride it as often as possible and you will likely never have to look at those damn things again. Unless of course you want more power
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Old July 25th, 2019, 12:16 PM   #12
frost
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Progress and update

Alright so I’ll start by saying I still full well intend on sending my carbs in to Ducatiman to have them properly cleaned before my trip in September but I continued to fiddle with them because that’s the only way I’ll be able to learn and have a good understanding of how my bike works and be able to confidently self-diagnose problems/issues shall they arise. So, here’s where we are. I disassembled the carbs again and the only thing I left attached was the choke slide and put them in a chem dip to sit. The recommended time slotted was 24 hours but I’ll be honest, I forgot about them and they sat for 3 days. On day 3 I removed them from the chemdip and first thing I noticed is how much more free the choke slide worked along with all the old fuel tarnish being 90% gone. I blew out all orifices at 320 psi, replaced pilot jets, carb bowl gasket, both diaphragms on the needle jet, drilled out the cap for the idle jet mixture screws (I believe that’s what they’re called) and dialed them out 2 and 1/2 turns per factory recommendations, hooked it all back up and VWALA!! She lives!!

Here’s the kicker though. I think it’s getting too much fuel because the throttle response in neutral is fantastic, she idles strong, but when put into first gear more times than not it sounds like it’s really bogging down and won’t actually gain speed until the rpms hit 3.5k plus. While riding in that rpm range (3.5k+) all is well until I let off the throttle then it sounds like there’s some backfire going on (why I think there’s too much fuel being delivered). I just wanted to give you guys an update as to where I’m at and also put my current situation out there to make sure my thought process on this is sound. Thank y’all for the help and guidance provided already and I’ll post a video to this thread when I’m off work to show both the progress and current situation.
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Old July 25th, 2019, 01:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frost View Post
Here’s the kicker though. I think it’s getting too much fuel because the throttle response in neutral is fantastic, she idles strong, but when put into first gear more times than not it sounds like it’s really bogging down and won’t actually gain speed until the rpms hit 3.5k plus. While riding in that rpm range (3.5k+) all is well until I let off the throttle then it sounds like there’s some backfire going on (why I think there’s too much fuel being delivered).
Hey, making progress!

These bikes have lean mid-range and rich top-end. The popping and bogging you have in low-end are from insufficient fuel. DO NOT try to "force" past this by using higher throttle-openings and higher-RPMs. The lean mixtures will cause excessive heat, detonation/pinging and will blow headgasket, or melt holes in pistons!

You need to take carbs back out for even more thorough and deeper cleaning. Chemicals do not work on dried petrol, it chemically oxidises and cross-links into poly-vinyl bonds (plastic). Only way to completely remove is with mechanical means. Scrubbing and flossing with wire. For example:



You need to poke out all bleed holes in pilot jet and emulsion tube with guitar wire of matching size as holes. You'll find it pushes out little plastic plugs that looks like grains of sand. No amount of soaking can remove those plugs, they must be mechanically removed. You need to test before and after cleaning of these holes. I drip coloured dye through ends to verify that every single hole "bleeds" correctly.

Same thing with fuel-circuits. These needs to be mechanically flossed to remove dried gas varnish.



Then all passages need to be soda-blasted to remove the varnish crumbs that remains after flossing. Compressed air just packs these crumbs into tight wad at ends of passages and creates further clogs (unless you use +10000 psi). Soda-blastings breaks them down into smaller pieces to they can be moved out the tiny holes at end.
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Old July 25th, 2019, 04:46 PM   #14
frost
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Hey, making progress!

These bikes have lean mid-range and rich top-end. The popping and bogging you have in low-end are from insufficient fuel. DO NOT try to "force" past this by using higher throttle-openings and higher-RPMs. The lean mixtures will cause excessive heat, detonation/pinging and will blow headgasket, or melt holes in pistons!

You need to take carbs back out for even more thorough and deeper cleaning. Chemicals do not work on dried petrol, it chemically oxidises and cross-links into poly-vinyl bonds (plastic). Only way to completely remove is with mechanical means. Scrubbing and flossing with wire. For example:



You need to poke out all bleed holes in pilot jet and emulsion tube with guitar wire of matching size as holes. You'll find it pushes out little plastic plugs that looks like grains of sand. No amount of soaking can remove those plugs, they must be mechanically removed. You need to test before and after cleaning of these holes. I drip coloured dye through ends to verify that every single hole "bleeds" correctly.

Same thing with fuel-circuits. These needs to be mechanically flossed to remove dried gas varnish.



Then all passages need to be soda-blasted to remove the varnish crumbs that remains after flossing. Compressed air just packs these crumbs into tight wad at ends of passages and creates further clogs (unless you use +10000 psi). Soda-blastings breaks them down into smaller pieces to they can be moved out the tiny holes at end.

Thank you for the insight and advice!! I haven’t driven it since because, as you said, running the bike at high RPMs can’t be good for it! Thank you for the diagram and I’ll be getting to work on that tonight!!
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