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Old May 19th, 2015, 05:35 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flitecontrol View Post
When was the last time you heard of a handgun permit holder making an unjustified shooting?
Let's see... Just looking at a few of the incidents that received widespread media attention...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ass-shootings/
  • Luby's cafeteria, Killeen, Texas, 1991. 24 dead, 20 wounded. Firearm was a Ruger P89, obtained legally.
  • Washington Navy Yard, 2013. 13 dead, 8 wounded. Firearm was a Beretta, obtained legally.
  • Aurora Colorado theater shooting, 2012. 12 dead, 58 wounded. .40 Glock among other weapons, obtained legally.
  • Sikh temple shooting, Oak Creek, Wisconsin. 7 dead, 3 injured. Springfield XDM, obtained legally.
  • Virginia Tech massacre, 2007. 33 dead, 23 injured. Glock 19 and Walther P22, both obtained legally.

It is of course possible to go on and on, but you get the point. Holding a permit does not mean you won't be misuse a firearm.

Full disclosure: I am a CCW holder. Sometimes I carry. Sometimes I do not. I also live in an area of very low crime, but did not always (which is why I got my permit in the first place).
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Old May 19th, 2015, 05:39 AM   #82
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To be far, you don't need to take a recertification test for driving (though i am a firm believer that you should) and the test to get a driver's license is kinda a joke...

Apples to oranges.

Going to a gun range can be considered a recreational activity but i don't think a gun should ever be called a toy.

Also, i don't think anyone is trying to forced a gun into anyones hands...

I'll go back to my corner now.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 05:48 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Let's see... Just looking at a few of the incidents that received widespread media attention...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ass-shootings/
  • Luby's cafeteria, Killeen, Texas, 1991. 24 dead, 20 wounded. Firearm was a Ruger P89, obtained legally.
  • Washington Navy Yard, 2013. 13 dead, 8 wounded. Firearm was a Beretta, obtained legally.
  • Aurora Colorado theater shooting, 2012. 12 dead, 58 wounded. .40 Glock among other weapons, obtained legally.
  • Sikh temple shooting, Oak Creek, Wisconsin. 7 dead, 3 injured. Springfield XDM, obtained legally.
  • Virginia Tech massacre, 2007. 33 dead, 23 injured. Glock 19 and Walther P22, both obtained legally.

It is of course possible to go on and on, but you get the point. Holding a permit does not mean you won't be misuse a firearm.

Full disclosure: I am a CCW holder. Sometimes I carry. Sometimes I do not. I also live in an area of very low crime, but did not always (which is why I got my permit in the first place).
Same can be said about cops too, there are bad people in every form of life.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 06:51 AM   #84
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When I learned to shoot they had me shoot a Mosin with the stickiest, heaviest trigger ever. It was to make everything seem way easier after that point, and starting with a bigger cartridge was supposed to scare me into respecting the gun, I think.
I like starting a kid off with a bolt action or brake action .22LR They learn to make every shot count. a follow up shot is 5 to 10 seconds away. ammo conservation, aim and fire with accuracy. I have a little bolt action .22lr that is a tack driver, silky smooth trigger with about an 4 pound pull. Hitting the target (usually aluminum cans filled with water) makes a kid want to hit with every shot...

then you give them the Ruger 10/.22 and let them go to town. Coke cans tremble when they see me coming.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:18 AM   #85
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I have shot so many different guns for so long I can't remember half of them. My guns are for recreational use only, so they are toys. A dangerous toy but less likely to kill then my motorcycle toy.


Guns are tools for cops and soldiers, a binky for a lot of folks.

I would never want to take a binky from anyone.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:28 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by cbinker View Post
Thats an easy fix Al, remove yourself from the discussion. or are you just trolling?
I am no more a troll then you.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:29 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by allanoue View Post
I have shot so many different guns for so long I can't remember half of them. My guns are for recreational use only, so they are toys. A dangerous toy but less likely to kill then my motorcycle toy.


Guns are tools for cops and soldiers, a binky for a lot of folks.

I would never want to take a binky from anyone.
Plinky!!! Not binky.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:47 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flitecontrol View Post
Did you know that all concealed handgun permit/license holders: 1. Have never been convicted of a felony, crime of violence, or domestic abuse. 2. Are not addicted to or use illegal drugs. 3. Cannot be under indictment or a fugitive from justice. 4. Have passed both state and federal background checks. 5. Are required in most states to take periodic training in order to continue to carry.

It cost me over $160 to get my permit, and will cost that much or more to renew it in five years.

Many states limit where a permit holder may carry their firearm.

When was the last time you heard of a handgun permit holder making an unjustified shooting?

How many criminals adhere to these restrictions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Let's see... Just looking at a few of the incidents that received widespread media attention...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ass-shootings/
  • Luby's cafeteria, Killeen, Texas, 1991. 24 dead, 20 wounded. Firearm was a Ruger P89, obtained legally.
  • Washington Navy Yard, 2013. 13 dead, 8 wounded. Firearm was a Beretta, obtained legally.
  • Aurora Colorado theater shooting, 2012. 12 dead, 58 wounded. .40 Glock among other weapons, obtained legally.
  • Sikh temple shooting, Oak Creek, Wisconsin. 7 dead, 3 injured. Springfield XDM, obtained legally.
  • Virginia Tech massacre, 2007. 33 dead, 23 injured. Glock 19 and Walther P22, both obtained legally.

It is of course possible to go on and on, but you get the point. Holding a permit does not mean you won't be misuse a firearm.

Full disclosure: I am a CCW holder. Sometimes I carry. Sometimes I do not. I also live in an area of very low crime, but did not always (which is why I got my permit in the first place).
If you don't have a criminal record for committing crimes such as a felony, domestic violence, etc., you can buy a gun. That includes most of the population. Even if you are barred from buying a new gun from a dealer, you can still legally obtain a firearm, such as buying a used gun from an individual.

But my question was about concealed carry individuals using their guns to commit violent crimes. As far as I can tell, the incidents you linked to were not persons with concealed weapon permits. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

FWIW, I remember reading an article by a lady that was in Luby's that day and had left her pistol at home rather than put it in her purse. She was full of remorse because if she had it, it would have been easy to take out the shooter. Her mother, hiding behind their table with her daughter, was shot and killed.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 08:01 AM   #89
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Being from a law enforcement background myself, I'm non- trusting anyway, the only gun control I support is don't give them to idiots, but that's mostly impossible.

My only protection is to worry about what I have control over, I also carry a collapsible baton, for those cases that don't call for deadly force.
Great point you make about the baton. I prefer the right to carry and do so myself based on the situation but I also like to recommend a baton (as you noted above) or OC spray to my friends who carry and also to those who don't. Having to go from fist to firearm doesn't play well into a Use Of Force Continuum chart so best to have some other options.

Be safe out there my friends.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 08:04 AM   #90
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You can't buy a handgun without a permit, at least in my state.

Frankly I don't have the time to dig into each and every incident to see if they had a permit or not, nor do I have the time to research the purchase laws in every state.

The point stands. A permit does not make you a good guy. A permit simply means that you've jumped through the legal hoops.

Those incidents were cited simply because there's plenty of media coverage available.

Feel free do do your own research to support your claim.

Here's another little factoid. Yes, CCW holders DO commit unjustified shootings. The rate is arguably lower, but it does happen. Source: http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/10...s-are-one.html

Quote:
The Violence Policy Center (VPC) says that Florida tops the nation in killings by people with concealed carry permits. VPC has complete years in their data base for 2008 - 2011 for Florida. There are 27 total killings that are unjustified homicides by CCW permit holders, and 14 of those are domestic homicides. The rate of domestic homicides per 100,000 per year is .583 per 100,000 for CCW holders.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 08:47 AM   #91
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As posted above, the background check only applies to individuals purchasing a gun through a Federal Firearms Dealer. It does not apply to individuals selling guns they already own.

I didn't ask anyone to research purchase laws. I did ask those who are sufficiently motivated to find data that shows concealed weapon permit holders who were involved in unjustified shootings.

I never said holding a permit makes you a good guy, but it does require that the applicant's background be scrutinized more closely than a gun buyer is. Hopefully, this weeds out some, but not all, of those inclined to use a gun for the wrong reasons.

The links you initially posted have nothing to do with my question about permit holders.

What claim do you think I made? Feel free to quote it.

The link in your last post is applicable to my question, and I thank you for providing it. I'll read it in detail when I have more time.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 09:20 AM   #92
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I learned something kinda funny when I was first hired on at a local department in 2008, I asked the question of how LEO's looked at private citizens who concealed carry. The answers were "funny" as here in the Commie state of MD that is a whole other topic in itself but they gave state and regional statistics that concealed carry citizens were involved slightly less in unjustified shootings than police (on and off duty) and also that they committed less crimes than police (on and off duty).

Just a little tid-bit of info for this sunny afternoon.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 10:59 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Let's see... Just looking at a few of the incidents that received widespread media attention...

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ass-shootings/
  • Luby's cafeteria, Killeen, Texas, 1991. 24 dead, 20 wounded. Firearm was a Ruger P89, obtained legally.
  • Washington Navy Yard, 2013. 13 dead, 8 wounded. Firearm was a Beretta, obtained legally.
  • Aurora Colorado theater shooting, 2012. 12 dead, 58 wounded. .40 Glock among other weapons, obtained legally.
  • Sikh temple shooting, Oak Creek, Wisconsin. 7 dead, 3 injured. Springfield XDM, obtained legally.
  • Virginia Tech massacre, 2007. 33 dead, 23 injured. Glock 19 and Walther P22, both obtained legally.

It is of course possible to go on and on, but you get the point. Holding a permit does not mean you won't be misuse a firearm.

Full disclosure: I am a CCW holder. Sometimes I carry. Sometimes I do not. I also live in an area of very low crime, but did not always (which is why I got my permit in the first place).

Adoug, perhaps you are confusing "firearm owner" with "concealed carry licensee" Texas didn't even have a CCL until 1994. The Luby's cafeteria killings were the motivation to remove Gov Richards and seat a gov who would sign ccw into law (G.W. Bush)

1. George Hennard, not licensed to carry a firearm (no ccw in Texas at that time). Not eligible to own or possess a handgun under federal law for drug possession offences.

2. Aaron Alexis had a permit to carry in Washington State. It would not be legal for him to carry in Washington D.C. , Maryland, or Virginia. It is also prohibited to carry a firearm on or in US government property or buildings, including the Navy Yard building 197. His weapon of choice was and unconcealed Remington 870 pump action shot gun with 2 hand guns as backup.

3. James Holms was not licensed to carry a firearm. He was eligible as Colorado is a shall issue state and Holms had no disqualifying elements in his record. However he was not a CCL holder.

4. Wade Michael Page. Wisconsin is prohibited by law from revealing if Page was a licensed concealed carry permit holder or not.

5. Seung-Hui Cho was declared mentally ill by a Vinginia special Justice but was ordered to seek treatment as an "Out patient". As an out patient his mental illness was not reported to Virginia's central criminal records exchange and as such he was not prohibited from purchasing firearms.

Actual concealed carry license holders commit crime at a lower rate then sworn law enforcement officers.

And in each instance above, the only way to stop the attack, would be an armed CCW licensee among the intended victims bringing their weapon to the fight and putting down the assailant.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 11:06 AM   #94
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I don't wear a helmet because I think I'm going to crash.

I don't carry a firearm because I think I'm going some where unsafe (if I think it's unsafe, I don't go there).

I wear a helmet, and I carry a firearm so that I'm prepared for things that I don't expect to happen.
Exactly!
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Old May 19th, 2015, 11:07 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flitecontrol View Post
FWIW, I remember reading an article by a lady that was in Luby's that day and had left her pistol at home rather than put it in her purse. She was full of remorse because if she had it, it would have been easy to take out the shooter. Her mother, hiding behind their table with her daughter, was shot and killed.
Dr. Suzanna Hupp (see also Suzanna Gratia Hupp)

Both her father (shot in the chest attempting to subdue the gunman) and mother (shot in the head while administering first add to Mr. Hupp) killed that day. Her .38 spl was in the trunk of her car (164 feet away) because Texas prohibited concealed carry at the time.
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Old March 19th, 2022, 04:09 PM   #96
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conceal carry vests

I bought a two concealed carry vest, loved it.

https://www.leatherstand.com/collect...-leather-vests
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Old March 19th, 2022, 11:14 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
Adoug, perhaps you are confusing "firearm owner" with "concealed carry licensee" Texas didn't even have a CCL until 1994. The Luby's cafeteria killings were the motivation to remove Gov Richards and seat a gov who would sign ccw into law (G.W. Bush)

1. George Hennard, not licensed to carry a firearm (no ccw in Texas at that time). Not eligible to own or possess a handgun under federal law for drug possession offences.

2. Aaron Alexis had a permit to carry in Washington State. It would not be legal for him to carry in Washington D.C. , Maryland, or Virginia. It is also prohibited to carry a firearm on or in US government property or buildings, including the Navy Yard building 197. His weapon of choice was and unconcealed Remington 870 pump action shot gun with 2 hand guns as backup.

3. James Holms was not licensed to carry a firearm. He was eligible as Colorado is a shall issue state and Holms had no disqualifying elements in his record. However he was not a CCL holder.

4. Wade Michael Page. Wisconsin is prohibited by law from revealing if Page was a licensed concealed carry permit holder or not.

5. Seung-Hui Cho was declared mentally ill by a Vinginia special Justice but was ordered to seek treatment as an "Out patient". As an out patient his mental illness was not reported to Virginia's central criminal records exchange and as such he was not prohibited from purchasing firearms.

Actual concealed carry license holders commit crime at a lower rate then sworn law enforcement officers.

And in each instance above, the only way to stop the attack, would be an armed CCW licensee among the intended victims bringing their weapon to the fight and putting down the assailant.

This is the most accurate and effective response I've seen along with the guy who also talked about CCW holders being less likely to commit crime than police officers.

CCW is great but the best gun is the one no one knows about until it's needed. CCW requires fingerprinting and being on a list. That doesn't sound like a good move

In PA you can open carry, and no one will have you on a list. This seems like the option that I'm most comfortable with
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Old March 21st, 2022, 04:52 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by IndestructibleNinja View Post
CCW is great but the best gun is the one no one knows about until it's needed. CCW requires fingerprinting and being on a list. That doesn't sound like a good move

In PA you can open carry, and no one will have you on a list. This seems like the option that I'm most comfortable with
I'm not fan of gvnt knowing everything about me. The less info I have to give 'em the better! I still sand off my fingerprints on regular basis.

CCW just seems like a bad idea on bike. I prefer to have my weapons where they're accessible when needed.

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Old March 22nd, 2022, 12:09 AM   #99
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I'm not fan of gvnt knowing everything about me
Exactly my thoughts, great setup. P09? Huge capacity great triggers, my first choice
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